Berserk NDE Thread

[Vince]

@Berserk Said:

(1) NDE researchers like Dr. Raymond Moody are now writing books about shared NDEs, which are generally far more evidential than most conventional NDEs because the doctors, nurses, and family members witnessing the apparent deaths actually experience key elements of the NDEs, including the OBE, the dying person's past life review, and the encounter with the Being of Light!

(1a) Watch this brief interview with Dr. Moody for a summary of this type of afterlife evidence:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...5FEC&FORM=VIRE

Elsewhere Dr. Moody describes his own shared NDE at his mother's deathbed. The shared nature of these NDEs is somewhat reminiscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances.

(1b) For a gripping personal account of a shared NDE, watch Dr. Scott Taylor's testimony:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E67B&FORM=VIRE

Such shared NDEs refute the claim of skeptics that NDEs are delusions caused by oxygen deprivation in a dying brain.

These videos are just claims with no supporting evidence. The only way we can know any of this happened is by a person telling us they had some kind of experience. Here are a few questions/comments I have on this subject:

1. In one study of 63 people that had cardiac arrest, only 11% actually had an NDE experience. Shouldn't everyone have had one?

2. Another study found that religious figures that are claimed to be seen have characteristics of the god in the culture the person lives in.

3. Science has good evidence that the mind is linked to the brain. If the brain is altered the mind is as well in every case. Someone claiming to have left the body and experiencing things contradict much evidence to the contrary. You cannot have a mind apart from the brain.

4. 30% of people given Ketamine have the similar NDE experiences and were convinced that it actually occurred. It seems we can induce an NDE experience at a greater rate than dying can.

 

[Vince]

@Berserk said:

Roger B. recently retired from his top executive position is the federal HUD department. He is an agnostic, but developed an openness to the claims of Christ through the NDEs and ADCs that I am describing in this thread. He even invited me to his vacation home in Fort Erie, Ontario. A fellow employee referred Roger to a book "Lighted Passage," written by his relative, a Presbyterian minister named Howell Vincent. The book is primarily about Vincent's daughter Rea, who was killed in a car accident on her honeymoon. The ADC cited below was a source of great comfort to the family:

(2) "On at least 2 occasions this radiant mother had come to Rea in visible tangible form and talked with her...I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie. Together with Rea I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice. I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept. At that time 3 other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did. We were all wide awake and walked around the room with Nellie."

From an evidential perspective this testimony rivals the Gospel resurrection stories and, for that very reason, lends them added credibility. Rev. Vincent's testimony certainly opened my agnostic HUD executive friend's heart to the Gospel and the possibility that Jesus really did rise from the dead. This ADC is similar to Jesus' resurrection appearances--e. g. Nellie's interaction with several family members, the experience of her blessing touch, and her provision of a supernaturally created keepsake.

How do I tell this story apart from Alex Malarky's book "The Boy who Came Back from Heaven" that he later said was made up? Is there any evidence sufficient to believe these accounts?

 

[Berserk]

You have not explored my thread on "My Journey through the Lens of Paranormal Experiences" in the site's Testimonial section.

Vince: "These videos are just claims with no supporting evidence. The only way we can know any of this happened is by a person telling us they had some kind of experience."

And if you actually read through the accounts, you would realize that I have conversed with the witnesses to the most evidential cases. Dr. Raymond Moody has written a book on shared NDEs which cannot be explained scientifically because the witnesses who experienced the Being of Light, the Past Life Review, and the reunion with loved ones were alive and healthy at the deathbed vigil. They can and do testify to what they experienced. Your comments show that you haven't bothered to watch the posted videos on Shared NDEs, or Telly Savalas's video or atheist Howard Storm's NDE testimonial video that converted him to Christianity. This suggests to me that you are a closed-minded troll who is unwilling to engage the hard investigative work of honest and open inquiry.

Vince :"In one study of 63 people that had cardiac arrest, only 11% actually had an NDE experience. Shouldn't everyone have had one?"
I read a study that found that 50% of Americans (and 48% of the British) experienced ADCs of the deceased loved one within a year of their passing. But the issue is not the percentage, but the quality of he verifications.

Vince: "Another study found that religious figures that are claimed to be seen have characteristics of the god in the culture the person lives in."
Again, you show evidence of not having read through the testimonies carefully. I have read testimonials of Jews and Muslims seeing Jesus in their NDEs! In fact, thousands of Muslims have been converted to Christianity through visions of Jesus; and I post one of those testimonies in my thread. In non-Chritian NDEs the visionary figures don't normally identify themselves, and so, the percipients often project an identity familiar to them from their religious tradition.

Vince: "Science has good evidence that the mind is linked to the brain. If the brain is altered the mind is as well in every case. Someone claiming to have left the body and experiencing things contradict much evidence to the contrary. You cannot have a mind apart from the brain."

Refuted by the 2 videos of shared NDEs which you have not watched!

4. 30% of people given Ketamine have the similar NDE experiences and were convinced that it actually occurred. It seems we can induce an NDE experience at a greater rate than dying can.[/QUOTE]

 

[Vince]

And if you actually read through the accounts, you would realize that I have conversed with the witnesses to the most evidential cases. Dr. Raymond Moody has written a book on shared NDEs which cannot be explained scientifically because the witnesses who experienced the Being of Light, the Past Life Review, and the reunion with loved ones were alive and healthy at the deathbed vigil. They can and do testify to what they experienced. Your comments show that you haven't bothered to watch the posted videos on Shared NDEs, or Telly Savalas's video or atheist Howard Storm's NDE testimonial video that converted him to Christianity. This suggests to me that you are a closed-minded troll who is unwilling to engage the hard investigative work of honest and open inquiry.

The fact that this convinces you does not mean that it will convince others. I listened to the videos and had some questions that you are unwilling to answer I guess. Questions are part of open inquiry. This is pretty typical, when challenged name call and dismiss. Whatever. I was actually engaging your posts.

Vince :"In one study of 63 people that had cardiac arrest, only 11% actually had an NDE experience. Shouldn't everyone have had one?"
I read a study that found that 50% of Americans (and 48% of the British) experienced ADCs of the deceased loved one within a year of their passing. But the issue is not the percentage, but the quality of he verifications.

Vince: "Another study found that religious figures that are claimed to be seen have characteristics of the god in the culture the person lives in."
Again, you show evidence of not having read through the testimonies carefully. I have read testimonials of Jews and Muslims seeing Jesus in their NDEs! In fact, thousands of Muslims have been converted to Christianity through visions of Jesus; and I post one of those testimonies in my thread. In non-Chritian NDEs the visionary figures don't normally identify themselves, and so, the percipients often project an identity familiar to them from their religious tradition.

Vince: "Science has good evidence that the mind is linked to the brain. If the brain is altered the mind is as well in every case. Someone claiming to have left the body and experiencing things contradict much evidence to the contrary. You cannot have a mind apart from the brain."

Refuted by the 2 videos of shared NDEs which you have not watched!

How so? All they are are claims with no supporting evidence. Let have a discussion? What in those videos refutes what I said? All they do is claim something happened. Why not answer my questions to the videos I watched?

 

[brakelite]

Being of Light, the Past Life Review, and the reunion with loved ones were alive and healthy at the deathbed vigil.

Being of light... Could be anything, demon or the devil himself.
Past life review... Is evidence of nothing. Such an experience could come from fallen angels whose work it is to follow us throughout our lives.. They are angels... They would have excellent memories.
Reunion with loved ones.... Impossible. They are dead. Again, demonic impersonations.
NDEs are merely another hypnotic deception on weak minds.

 

[Berserk]

Vince: "The fact that this convinces you does not mean that it will convince others."

It apparently convinced the other online Vince. He renounced his skepticism and became a born again Christian.

Vince: "I listened to the videos and had some questions that you are unwilling to answer I guess."

You need to show cause why the God supported in the testimonies is NOT the Christian God. How much do you even know about the Christian God? You need to get what I'm trying to establish here. If these testimonies are true, then what are the implications for your faith quest?

Vince: "Questions are part of open inquiry. This is pretty typical, when challenged name call and dismiss. Whatever. I was actually engaging your posts."

I provided lots of verifications and you choose to avoid discussing their epistemological merit. So why have you ducked my challenge to read through "My Journey" and the paranormal evidence provided there? That evidence will be expanded in additional posts on subsequent paranormal experiences.

Vince: "How so? All they are are claims with no supporting evidence. Let have a discussion? What in those videos refutes what I said? All they do is claim something happened. Why not answer my questions to the videos I watched?"

Dr. Eben Alexander is a Harvard neurosurgeon who had a lethal type of menengitus that shut down his brain. His NDE convinced him that mind states are not produced by brain states--that mind exists in another dimension and channels thoughts through the brain. He experienced an awesome verification through his NDE. Watch this short video and then read his book "Proof of Heaven:"
Eben alexander youtube near-death - Bing video

Am I to conclude that you don't consider a dead spirit diving a vehicle "evidence," if the testimony is true? And in both cases, the experience was accompanied by verification evidence. Please address that to demonstrate that you really have read the posts and watched the videos. So what did you think of Atheist Howard Storm's video NDE testimony, which you obviously didn't bother to watch?

 

[JellyJam]

@Berserk Said:


These videos are just claims with no supporting evidence. The only way we can know any of this happened is by a person telling us they had some kind of experience. Here are a few questions/comments I have on this subject:

1. In one study of 63 people that had cardiac arrest, only 11% actually had an NDE experience. Shouldn't everyone have had one?

2. Another study found that religious figures that are claimed to be seen have characteristics of the god in the culture the person lives in.

3. Science has good evidence that the mind is linked to the brain. If the brain is altered the mind is as well in every case. Someone claiming to have left the body and experiencing things contradict much evidence to the contrary. You cannot have a mind apart from the brain.

4. 30% of people given Ketamine have the similar NDE experiences and were convinced that it actually occurred. It seems we can induce an NDE experience at a greater rate than dying can.

Although, it appears to me that we are not just matter, but energy also.

Everything we are gets transformed into something else once we encounter full entropy.

If the universe is X.Y.Z.& Time

Then we must operate in 4 dimensions, not 3.
Where is the 4th dimension? And do we exist there also. I think that you have a 4th dimensional body as well as a 3 dimensional body in the X.Y.Z axis.

Once you die in the 3rd dimension, you will just be left in the 4th.

 

[Vince]

Vince: "The fact that this convinces you does not mean that it will convince others."

It apparently convinced the other online Vince. He renounced his skepticism and became a born again Christian.

That says nothing as to how I view your evidence.

Vince: "I listened to the videos and had some questions that you are unwilling to answer I guess."

You need to show cause why the God supported in the testimonies is NOT the Christian God. How much do you even know about the Christian God? You need to get what I'm trying to establish here. If these testimonies are true, then what are the implications for your faith quest?

This is not the way this works. You are making a claim, the burden of proof is on you to show that god of the bible is the cause of these miracles. Why is it not the Muslim god? How can I tell the difference?

Vince: "Questions are part of open inquiry. This is pretty typical, when challenged name call and dismiss. Whatever. I was actually engaging your posts."

I provided lots of verifications and you choose to avoid discussing their epistemological merit. So why have you ducked my challenge to read through "My Journey" and the paranormal evidence provided there? That evidence will be expanded in additional posts on subsequent paranormal experiences.

I didn't avoid this I responded in a new post in the apologetics section.

Vince: "How so? All they are are claims with no supporting evidence. Let have a discussion? What in those videos refutes what I said? All they do is claim something happened. Why not answer my questions to the videos I watched?"

Dr. Eben Alexander is a Harvard neurosurgeon who had a lethal type of menengitus that shut down his brain. His NDE convinced him that mind states are not produced by brain states--that mind exists in another dimension and channels thoughts through the brain. He experienced an awesome verification through his NDE. Watch this short video and then read his book "Proof of Heaven:"
Eben alexander youtube near-death - Bing video

I watched the video, but again this is a story without any evidence. I will say this again, 30% of people given Ketamine have the similar NDE experiences and were convinced that it actually occurred. It seems we can induce an NDE experience at a greater rate than dying can. I don't understand why you think that stories of some events are sufficient evidence? When there have been many that have come out later and lied about it. I gave one example in another post. How do I tell the difference between this story and one that is lying?

Am I to conclude that you don't consider a dead spirit diving a vehicle "evidence," if the testimony is true? And in both cases, the experience was accompanied by verification evidence. Please address that to demonstrate that you really have read the posts and watched the videos. So what did you think of Atheist Howard Storm's video NDE testimony, which you obviously didn't bother to watch?

You really need to stop accusing others of things you have no idea about. I watched the videos and was not convinced and actually engaged you with questions. Why the hostility?

Here is your story aboutthe driving ghost:

(4a) :Leonard was a wealthy elderly businessman who was a beloved member of a church I pastored in western New York. On a few occasions I had dinner with him and his wife Helen. He was very anxious that I visit his brother, his wife, and his cousin when they had health issues. But one day it dawned on me that he seemed to have little or no grief about the premature deaths of his son Jeff, Jeff's wife Karen, and their 2 children in a small plane crash. One day Leonard asked me to visit him to discuss a possible visit to his dying cousin who lived across the road who had refused any visitation. Leonard wasn't home, but I found myself remarking to Helen at how easily Leonard seemed to adjust to the tragic deaths of his young son's family. Helen replied cryptically, "Oh, that's because Jeff visited him, but Leonard doesn't like to talk about that!" Curious, I took the risk to make the same observation to Leonard the next time I saw him. His responded with the most dramatically supernatural encounter I've ever encountered.

Leonard told me that after the funeral he was about to drive Jeff's pickup truck to town on an errand. As he approached the end of his driveway, he noticed a figure looming from the ditch by the highway. It was his late son Jeff! Jeff approached the pickup, saying, "Hi Dad, do you mind if I drive my pickup for old time's sake?" A stunned Leonard slid over and Jeff got in and drove his pickup north towards Rochester, NY on Rte. 37. Jeff assured his Dad and he and his family were together and OK and then revealed the details of his financial investments to help Leonard settle his estate. After driving a few miles, Jeff abruptly turned right on a less traveled highway and drove a couple of miles until they approached a thicket of woods. Jeff then solemnly remarked: "I'm sorry, Dad, but I'm not permitted to drive any further." Jeff then got out of the pickup, walked towards the woods, and dematerialized! A stunned Leonard then drove the pickup home.

Leonard told me that Jeff's paranormal visit did little to ease his grief because he was in shock and the whole adventure seemed too surreal to be real. But everything changed the next morning. Leonard awakened with a heavy heart and went for a walk in the woods behind his house to ease his grief. He was soon overcome by a weeping spell and sat down on a log. Then he heard a branch crack and saw a young woman approaching. It was Jeff's late wife Karen! She chided him, "Dad, didn't we tell you that we are all together and OK? So what are you doing grieving like this? You get back in the house and comfort Mom (Helen)!" It was Karen's comforting visit that dispatched most of Leonard's grief.

After sharing this amazing account, Leonard gazed at my incredulous expression with great concern and I felt ashamed because he hadn't wanted to share this experience and I had goaded him into sharing it. I apologized, adding that I was grateful that he shared his ADC and I just needed time to process what I'd heard.

I asked him if he had shared this experience with his 2 daughters and he said No. He didn't want his family to think he was crazy. I left to pastor another church a year later and eventually heard that Leonard had passed away, but that his daughter had shared his ADC at his funeral service. Apparently, my sympathetic listening had encouraged him to share his ADC with his daughters.

I'm impressed by the twin confirmations that Leonard's grief was gloriously terminated by this most miraculous ADC and by the unknown information received during the ADC about his son Jeff's investments. I have found that this testimony in particular has opened the minds of intelligent skeptics to the Gospel in a way that no standard presentation of the Gospel could. in so doing, it lends added credibility to Gospel resurrection narratives.

Where is the verification evidence you talk about?

 

[Vince]

Although, it appears to me that we are not just matter, but energy also.

Everything we are gets transformed into something else once we encounter full entropy.

What is full entropy?

If the universe is X.Y.Z.& Time

Then we must operate in 4 dimensions, not 3.
Where is the 4th dimension? And do we exist there also. I think that you have a 4th dimensional body as well as a 3 dimensional body in the X.Y.Z axis.

Once you die in the 3rd dimension, you will just be left in the 4th.

Time is the 4th dimension.

 

[JellyJam]

What is full entropy?

Time is the 4th dimension.

Full Entropy (Death)

 

[Berserk]

Vince: "This is not the way this works. You are making a claim, the burden of proof is on you to show that god of the bible is the cause of these miracles. Why is it not the Muslim god? How can I tell the difference?"

Yes,"this is the way this works!" You pass yourself off as an atheist. Any pro-theistic arguments involves assumptions, which are by nature intuitive and experienced based. As a closed-minded atheist, you can always dismiss reasonablie assumptions in a way that makes your position unfalsifiable in principle and therefore epistemologically meaningless. Two steps are involved in the initial sate of discrediting your pos"tion:
(1) discrediting your materialist world view by demonstrating the possibility of a higher intelligence. The issue of the nature and will of that higher intelligence is a second stage.
(2) establishing your ignorance of what the Bible actually claims about the nature of the Chrsitian God, evidence of which you are apparently obvious. I will demonstrate your confusion in a future post.

Vince: "I watched the video, but again this is a story without any evidence. I will say this again, 30% of people given Ketamine have the similar NDE experiences and were convinced that it actually occurred. It seems we can induce an NDE experience at a greater rate than dying can."
No, you show no evidence of watching the NDE videos. If you had, you'd realize that your ketamine claim is bogus on several levels:
(1) The videos document shared NDEs in which those having the experience are healthy friends and family members by the deathbed! Duh! And Dr. Raymond Moody and his doctor colleague interviewed the doctors, nurses, and family members who had these shared NDEs. Duh!
(2) The other posted NDEs are accompanied by verifications for which you have no answer, which have no parallel in ketamine experiences.
(3) As for Leonard's ADC (not an NDE), there were 2 verifications:
(a) His dead son notified him about his financial investments, which Leonard was subsequent able to confirm.
(b) More importantly, though he was grief-stricken about the health problems of his other family members (his wife Helen, his brother and his cousin across the road), his ADC of his son Jeff and Jeff's wife Karen killed his grief. I knew Leonard well and was able to witness this amazing emotional healing.

I don't understand why you think that stories of some events are sufficient evidence? When there have been many that have come out later and lied about it. I gave one example in another post. How do I tell the difference between this story and one that is lying?"
You find ONE example of an admitted fraud and then lamely generalize that to label all others as as frauds, despite their awesome verifications? This only proved just how closed minded you are!

You really need to stop accusing others of things you have no idea about. I watched the videos and was not convinced and actually engaged you with questions. Why the hostility?

Because your comments show no evidence that you watched the videos! I eagerly await your critical engagement with that video EVIDENCE. I gave you the verification evidence in Leonard's ADC. If you watched the Telly Savalas ADC video, you would realize that the driver gave Telly the information about how to contact his home, constact that verified the driver's death prior to Telly's ADC of him.

 

[Vince]

Vince: "This is not the way this works. You are making a claim, the burden of proof is on you to show that god of the bible is the cause of these miracles. Why is it not the Muslim god? How can I tell the difference?"

Yes,"this is the way this works!" You pass yourself off as an atheist. Any pro-theistic arguments involves assumptions, which are by nature intuitive and experienced based. As a closed-minded atheist, you can always dismiss reasonablie assumptions in a way that makes your position unfalsifiable in principle and therefore epistemologically meaningless.

I am not closed minded I just want evidence and good reasons for what I believe to be true. Asking questions, which you seem to not like, is the way to do that.

Two steps are involved in the initial sate of discrediting your pos"tion:
(1) discrediting your materialist world view by demonstrating the possibility of a higher intelligence. The issue of the nature and will of that higher intelligence is a second stage.

I have never said god does not exist and I don't necessarily view myself as a materialist. I am open to the possibility of teh supernatural but I have not seen any reason to belive it exists yet.

(2) establishing your ignorance of what the Bible actually claims about the nature of the Chrsitian God, evidence of which you are apparently obvious. I will demonstrate your confusion in a future post.

I just know what I read the text says in context.

No, you show no evidence of watching the NDE videos. If you had, you'd realize that your ketamine claim is bogus on several levels:
(1) The videos document shared NDEs in which those having the experience are healthy friends and family members by the deathbed! Duh! And Dr. Raymond Moody and his doctor colleague interviewed the doctors, nurses, and family members who had these shared NDEs. Duh!

What do you consider documentation? All I heard was stories of stories. Where is the verification that the events are because of the christian god?

(2) The other posted NDEs are accompanied by verifications for which you have no answer, which have no parallel in ketamine experiences.

My answer is why should I believe these stories to be true?

(3) As for Leonard's ADC (not an NDE), there were 2 verifications:
(a) His dead son notified him about his financial investments, which Leonard was subsequent able to confirm.
(b) More importantly, though he was grief-stricken about the health problems of his other family members (his wife Helen, his brother and his cousin across the road), his ADC of his son Jeff and Jeff's wife Karen killed his grief. I knew Leonard well and was able to witness this amazing emotional healing.

Again these are just accounts told by people and some second hand. This is not reasonable evidence in my opinion, its just stories. I have heard stories of the Muslim god doing great healings why are those stories not true and these are?

You find ONE example of an admitted fraud and then lamely generalize that to label all others as as frauds, despite their awesome verifications? This only proved just how closed minded you are!

This is untrue. I never said all were frauds. Stop lying about me. This was my question. How can I differentiate between the supernatural story of someone that is telling the truth and someone that is lying?

Because your comments show no evidence that you watched the videos! I eagerly await your critical engagement with that video EVIDENCE. I gave you the verification evidence in Leonard's ADC. If you watched the Telly Savalas ADC video, you would realize that the driver gave Telly the information about how to contact his home, constact that verified the driver's death prior to Telly's ADC of him.

What in these videos convinces you that these stories are true?

If you keep accusing me of not watching the videos when I know I have then why should I continue? Look at the facts and what I am saying and have a conversation.

 

[Berserk]

Vince: "If you keep accusing me of not watching the videos when I know I have then why should I continue? Look at the facts and what I am saying and have a conversation."

Raymond Moody and Paul Perry are both medical doctors who have documented their interviews with physicians, nurses, and friends and families of the dying and written up their research in their new book. "Glimpses of Eternity." Dr. Moody even had his own shared NDE with his mother. All of this is recorded in thir short video on which you fail to comment. I gave you the verifications provided by Leonard and other ADCs and you ducked that evidence. So why should I take your so-called quest seriously?"

 

[Vince]

Vince: "If you keep accusing me of not watching the videos when I know I have then why should I continue? Look at the facts and what I am saying and have a conversation."

Raymond Moody and Paul Perry are both medical doctors who have documented their interviews with physicians, nurses, and friends and families of the dying and written up their research in their new book. Dr. Moody even had his own shared NDE with his mother. All of this is recorded in thir short video on which you fail to comment. I gave you the verifications provided by Leonard and other ADCs and you ducked that evidence. So why should I take your so-called quest seriously?

I did comment on that video. In this thread, I just cannot comment on the thread with the original video. Recorded only means written down. I want to know where is any evidence that these things are verifiable and are caused by a god? Being told they happened is not enough when you are talking about supernatural experiences. If my wife told me she ate McDonald's for dinner I would believe her with no other evidence, if she told me she saw big foot, I would believe that she is telling the truth about what she thinks she saw but I would need more evidence to believe she actually saw big foot. If I grant you that these people are telling the truth, how do I know that they know what the cause was? That is the evidence I am looking for. Stories are not sufficient evidence. Why do they believe god is the cause and not something in their brain or another unknown cause. This is not unreasonable when we are searching for truth.

 

[Berserk]

"Vince: "Recorded only means written down."
Are you actually claiming that face-to-face interviews with countless eyewitnesses, including physicians, nurses, and Dr. Moody himself don't count as evidence? Are you claiming that ADC evidence like Telly Savalas's phone number note from the ghost driver that is confirmed by a follow-up investigation counts for nothing? Are you actually claiming that Dr. Scott Taylor's independent confirmation of his shared death experience can be discounted? Are you sure you watched his video? Are you actually clalming that 2 simultaneous sets of witness who testify to a conversation between 2 dying brothers in 2 nursing homes 10 miles apart and at the same time does not count for evidence?

Vinvr: "I want to know where is any evidence that these things are verifiable and are caused by a god?"
If I grant you that these people are telling the truth, how do I know that they know what the cause was? That is the evidence I am looking for. Stories are not sufficient evidence. Why do they believe god is the cause and not something in their brain or another unknown cause. This is not unreasonable when we are searching for truth."

So you actually believe that no divine assistance is needed to enable 2 dead souls to drive vehicles and provide verifiable unknown information of postmortem survival to the eyewitness? And where is the evidence that you watched atheist Howard Storm's NDE testimony of how he found Jesus?

My next post will expose your simplstic view of the biblical God.

 

[Vince]

"Vince: "Recorded only means written down."
Are you actually claiming that face-to-face interviews with countless eyewitnesses, including physicians, nurses, and Dr. Moody himself don't count as evidence? Are you claiming that ADC evidence like Telly Savalas's phone number note from the ghost driver that is confirmed by a follow-up investigation counts for nothing? Are you actually claiming that Dr. Scott Taylor's independent confirmation of his shared death experience can be discounted? Are you sure you watched his video? Are you actually clalming that 2 simultaneous sets of witness who testify to a conversation between 2 dying brothers in 2 nursing homes 10 miles apart and at the same time does not count for evidence?

I am not claiming that this is not evidence. I am saying that it is insufficient evidence. How can I verify these accounts?

So you actually believe that no divine assistance is needed to enable 2 dead souls to drive vehicles and provide verifiable unknown information of postmortem survival to the eyewitness? And where is the evidence that you watched atheist Howard Storm's NDE testimony of how he found Jesus?

Can you provide evidence that links these events to a god? It is a fallacy to say I don't know of any other reason so it must be a god.

My next post will expose your simplstic view of the biblical God.

Great.

 

[Berserk]

Vince: "I am not claiming that this is not evidence. I am saying that it is insufficient evidence. How can I verify these accounts?"
Y
ou keep ducking my point: I know I'm telling the truth and know and have interviewed those I claim to have interviewed. Your bias can always allow you to rationalize your rejection of direct paranormal experiences and eyewitness verifications. So my question to you is this: what is at stake if these testimonies are true? Is not a divine intelligence not a reasonable explanation. If not, why not? And on what grounds do you claim a non-theistic explanation as equally plausible?

Can you provide evidence that links these events to a god?"

You obviously have not bothered to watch atheist Howard Storm's NDE testimony.

 

[Vince]

Vince: "I am not claiming that this is not evidence. I am saying that it is insufficient evidence. How can I verify these accounts?"
Y
ou keep ducking my point: I know I'm telling the truth and know and have interviewed those I claim to have interviewed. Your bias can always allow you to rationalize your rejection of direct paranormal experiences and eyewitness verifications. So my question to you is this: what is at stake if these testimonies are true? Is not a divine intelligence not a reasonable explanation. If not, why not? And on what grounds do you claim a non-theistic explanation as equally plausible?

I am not claiming I know of any reason people have had these experiences. I have no evidence to know whether it is supernatural or natural. I am willing to believe the experiences are real, but there needs to be a link between these experiences and a god, what is it? Them saying they saw god is not enough.

You obviously have not bothered to watch atheist Howard Storm's NDE testimony.

Sigh, Can you tell me why this video is evidence to you that they are relaying actual truth? What in this video convinces you?

Can you also answer me this question which I have asked repeatedly, How can I tell the difference between someone telling the truth abut the NDE experience and a person that is lying about it? or How can I tell the difference between someone telling me that god is Jesus or God is Allah?