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Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Enow, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    We should rely on the Lord Jesus Christ to help us minister to others in meekness & patience, hoping in God that He will cause the increase by enabling them to see the truth in His words.

    Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    Ask Jesus Christ to help you to stop being baited to respond in anger but reply in His love.

    And trust Him to help you walk away for a while to cool off to avoid the temptation.

    When a conversation becomes an argument, that is when to cool off.

    2 Corinthians 12:19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. 20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

    It would be nice to see the Lord ministering from and on both sides of a discussion.

    Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

    1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
     
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  2. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Yes, agreed Enow. I know that there are times when I may have got impatient and lacked diplomacy, due to the frustration that i felt because I couldn't recall the verses or the points that I wanted to make, in order to support my position. That is, at least still feeling that I was correct, but unable to articulate it. In other words, I do not believe that I ever did this when i knew that i was wrong and just wanted to win, and I hope that I never reach that level of desperation and pathos.

    On the other hand, some views do verge on being offensive (babies come from hell, or any support for Benny Hinn & Joel Osteen, etc...), or views that are just outrageously exegeted. I think that a certain level of candor is required in such cases. Not abusive, but assertive, frank and uncompromising.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
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  3. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for sharing.

    I agree that as He enables us, we should always tell the truth in exposing good and evil by the scripture, but when doing an outreach ministry to those that oppose themselves is when we trust Him to carry the burden of the ministry in helping others see the truth in His words rather than resort to name calling or toss some indirect jab at someone's inability to comprehend the truth that is so obvious to us, but yet it is only obvious to us because of the Lord Jesus Christ enabling us to see the truth in His words... as in " blessed are your eyes that see and ears that hear..."

    We plant the seed & water that God provides but whether it gets planted is on Him just as watering is on Him as only He can cause the increase.

    1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

    The burden of the ministry is on Him for why I even rely on Him to remind me so as not to get frustrated in sharing the truth in His words when others do not see it right away or even if not at all, since we prophesy in part and know in part, all believers will know for sure when face to face with Jesus Christ.
     
  4. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Yes, agreed Enow. One has to appreciate the limitations of their ability, in either their understanding, or making something grow.
    And one thing that if feel is appropriate to add, that I have great indignation towards, are those who claim to be speaking through the Holy Spirit.
    Just for the reasons that you started this thread, people's inability to be diplomatic, composed and respectful, and to me, insightful and accurate, how is it that these same people confess to be inspired by the Holy Spirit?
    In other words, being abusive is one thing, and making audacious claims is another. Both are improper and offensive.
     
  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 4
    1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
    2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
    3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

    1 Corinthians 11:19 (NASB)
    "For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."
     
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  6. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe testifying to my faith in the Lord enabling me to serve Him is the same as saying everything I say is from the Lord. We all have to be open to correction from Him and that is done by His words of which only He can cause the increase for us or others to receive the truth in His words.

    You should be free to testify of your faith in Him in how you minister as that faith in Him can be applied by others as well in how they are to minister.

    But, yeah, anyone saying "What I say is from the Holy Spirit..." is a bit unnecessary and sometimes circumspect because those that hear would know that what is being said was from the Holy Spirit when what is being said lines up with His written words of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    One such example of falsehood is when a woman had asked at a home Bible study if what was happening in their church was really of the Holy Spirit with said speaker would be on the stage and then he would be speaking until he be stricken mute and in a dumb trancelike state. This man had testified that the Holy Spirit did that to silence him, of which performance, the congregation applauded at those incidents as if the Holy Spirit did that. That said man was in that Bible study for which he yelled "This is the Holy Spirit speaking!! Don't you ever doubt me again !!" to that woman who had asked that question regarding his experience and everything confusing happening at that church assembly.

    So, yes, I can see in that way how it can be offensive and improper and abusive to force believers to tow the line and not question anything that pertains to what they claim is the Holy Spirit even though the apostle John did say not to believe every spirit but tests them in 1 John 4:1-6.
     
  7. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    I also wish to point out that Paul had written to churches finding them biting and devouring one another and by no means was he saying they did not have the Holy Spirit, but instead exhorted them to walk in the Spirit.

    So just because they may get heated and lose sight of Him in a discussion that turns into an argument, it doesn't mean they do not have the power to get back on track in walking with the Spirit because the Spirit is in them and with them always as sealed unto that day of redemption; Ephesians 4:30.

    So hopefully, those walking with the Spirit in a discussion can either remind the offender to walk with the Spirit in that discussion, or we have to take a break away from the offender if that is the only way he can stop being heated to calm down and maybe be walking with the Spirit another day.
     
  8. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Very well said Enow, and a very good example, ...my sentiments exactly.
    I believe that Holy Spirit works in believer's lives, but let others determine that. For, like you said, it becomes very circumspect when people either, need to make the claim (because the wisdom or demeanor doesn't speak for itself), or are attempting to deter any challenges.
    When others praise you as gifted, that is a much more convincing testimony, ...ultimately, still required to test though.
    Thanks!
     
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  9. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    So then, can the Holy Spirit be dormant in a believer? Can it be residing in a person without being activated?

    I've always believed that it's one or the other, you are either invoking the Holy Spirit at a specific moment, or you are not. I know that it's written that it's a gratuitous gift to all believer's. But, I've always felt that it requires faith & humility to obtain it, and the it's indwelling was as either, subjective or sporadic, as one's faith?
    In other words, it's available to all believers, but one must be prepared to receive it, and that it comes and goes accordingly.
     
  10. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to add to this . . . in these forums, there are many who trust in the same Jesus, but there are most certainly those who deny Jesus, who deny the faith, not to mention those who are here to deceive. Who are deceived and are deceiving others.

    Yes, I know it's not the PC topic, but by their fruits you shall know them. What do we see when we look at their disciples? Confidence towards God, or discouragement? Security in Jesus? Or fearful uncertainty? Do we see the fruits of love? Or grinding down people's faith? The testimony of a new life? Or something else?

    I know what I see and it's not pretty.

    And of course that will be the problem when one's official position is to have no standards, and simply anything goes.

    That's what happens. Anything goes.

    Is that love? Or not?
     
  11. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    He can be grieved so I would have to say that He is promised to all those that believe in Him for how every believer is born again of the Spirit.

    I am not sure about what you mean by invoking the Holy Spirit when He is the promise to be sent by the father for all those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ. Once received, there is no invoking the Holy Spirit when the indwelling Holy Spirit would put our focus in relating to the Bridegroom at that throne of grace since He is in us and is with us always..
     
  12. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Well, then as we spoke of before, show me a person that you think exudes the power & holiness of the Holy Spirit. Of all the Christians that I've ever met in my life, even the ones on You Tube (most eminent theologians today), not one of them convinces me that they have any extra power besides their own innate, or acquired intellect and etiquette.
    So, again, to me, it is only the truly humble, wise and faithful that are able to invoke the gift. Even of all the Christians on this forum, to me, not one has ever shown signs of the Holy Spirit within them, not one (despite the countless that try to convince you that they do).
    And, of course, including myself, obviously.
     
  13. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    It's not really "anything goes" on here.

    I'll explain:

    Those who preach and teach ALL of God's attributes are told they worship a Monster. When the Gospel is shown to be given to whom He wills, which isn't every single person, the reaction is the same. These truths are supplanted with the falsity that God owes man, every single one, an opportunity for salvation. That is absolutely false and absolutely arrogant, nonetheless unBiblical.

    Preach Christ is created, not eternal, the brother of the devil, a pushover, only love, it's praised as true.

    Preach that it's no biggie that God is God, you can do it too, and any other false gospel and false god on here, but call it "Christian" then it's all good and you are patted on the back with approval.

    Hide your sects true beliefs with lying denial, contrary to the precedent of 2 Corinthians 4:2, that's praised and defended as well.

    Preach that the Scriptures are unnecessary on here, it is met with praise.

    Preach that there is another testament of Christ, contrary to the clear teachings of Galatians 1:8-10; Jude 1:3 and other texts, you're praised as a true believer.

    So no, it's not "anything goes" here, it's more like "false teachings go" and truth is forbidden. That is where we are today.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
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  14. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Whatever else you have to say about it, this misrepresents the position of many who do not hold your view.

    It certainly does not represent my views, though I believe Jesus died for all mankind's sin. That everyone has the opportunity to know God.

    My view is that God offers His grace freely to all men. If you want to misrepresent my view as if I thought that God owes salvation to all, and then argue against that view, that's fine, but that's pretty much the classic definition of the Straw Man argument, not an argument at all.

    And so it does not engage another in a discussion of our respective understandings, instead, you end up engaging only with yourself, because, after all, I don't actually think out of some arrogance that God owes anyone salvation. So you supply that view, then knock it down, straw man, but you've not spoken towards my view.

    Personally, I think it's important for us, if we are going to engage in these discussions, to actually be able to understand each other's points of view, even to the point of being able to correctly state the other person's view, whether we agree or not. Even to the point of being able to answer theological and soteriological questions correctly from that other person's frame of referrence. Even if we don't have the same POV.

    Isn't it more honest to correctly state what someone else believes?

    Much love!
     
  15. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I think you have just as much opportunity to give your POV as anyone else.

    Has any admins or mods moderated your posts? Given warnings? Delete or edit posts? Given time outs? I guess it has happened a time or two, so on reflection, yes, you're correct, not just anything, but just about anything. But when has truth been forbidden?
     
  16. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    Believe me, truth has been forbidden. Yes to your former, but no time outs yet.

    I'm going to be honest with you, and I do care about you: You oppose the truth yourself. That's a fact but you cannot see it.
     
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  17. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    I never claimed you teach God owes men salvation. Read more closely what I actually said: I said some teach God owes everyone an opportunity of salvation. So you're the one erecting a straw man because you've not really read what I stated. See that?

    As far as owing everyone an opportunity for salvation?

    He doesn't.
     
  18. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Tit for tat, and meaningless, in my opinion. OH, You just oppose the truth! OK. On and on it goes.l
     
  19. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    But again, I would say that is not the focus when the indwelling Holy Ghost would lead every believer to see to continue their reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.

    How can you avoid people that make false claims about the Holy Ghost then if one looks for such people?

    1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase....….21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

    1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

    It is His workmanship in us and others that will be glorified.

    2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

    Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

    1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    Only you can know the Holy Spirit is in you.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    By His words towards professing believers is how we know He is in them.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

    He is even in former believers still.

    2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
     
  20. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps God will have you face reality?
     
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