Beware Of Increasing Debt

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Hidden In Him

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Posted this elsewhere, but out of care for this community I thought it should be posted here as well. Some are saying the world economy will rebound from Covid-19, but as much as I would like to believe that to be true, I think it is a very uninformed opinion.

The following vision is instead what is likely about to come to pass. It is a warning for believers to trust the Lord for their financial welfare rather than keep borrowing from creditors, because the standard of living we enjoyed up until now, especially in the States, is now about to become a thing of the past. Those who incur more debt now will place themselves in danger of being in bondage to it for a very long time to come, as paying off debt will become extremely difficult in the not too distant future.

The following vision was given two decades ago, but I believe its fulfillment is now at hand.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
_______________

A Field Of Dreams Or Nightmares?

While praying about the future of our economy, I was given a vision of a long, lush green field. I felt that this represented a long period of economic prosperity, which has generally been the case since that time. While praying in August 1995, I saw this field in a vision again, but with much more detail. The end of the field was covered in fog. Not far into the fog there was a very steep cliff. In the middle of the cliff, there was a narrow, twisting, steep path that appeared like a descending bridge. It had the same green grass on it that the field did and went all the way to the bottom.

Those who walked into the fog almost all missed the little path and fell over the cliff. Some of these died, but nets below the cliffs caught many of them. However, these nets were not there to save the people but to trap them. Others entered the fog carefully, dropping to their knees and searching for the path, which they seemed to intuitively know was there. Most of those looking for the path were able to find it and carefully started down on their knees. A few people had parachutes, and they jumped off the cliff into the fog.

At the bottom there was a sea with four kinds of ships in the harbor: slave ships, warships, luxury liners, and hospital ships. Most of the ships were slavers. The next greatest number was warships. There were only five hospital ships, all of which were on clean, well-kept docks right in the middle of the harbor. The two luxury liners were docked at each end of the harbor. An abundance of supplies were on their docks, but both the docks and ships looked filthy and poorly maintained. No warships were docked, but all kept moving about in the harbor.

The people who fell into the nets were put on the slave ships...


Interpretation and Insights

That I can now see the end of this field indicates that the end of our economic prosperity is now in sight. What I saw at the end was much more catastrophic than I had ever thought. There are some very dark times ahead, but at the same time there is a whole new world being built right in our midst that is more wonderful than we can even imagine.

To the degree that we have built our lives and faith on the economy of the world, we have built on a very shaky foundation. We know that the time will come when everything that can be shaken will be. The time that we have been given until that happens is for the purpose of preparation. Let us build our hope and trust on the kingdom that alone cannot be shaken.

Those who kept walking into the fog just as they had been walking in the open field, not discerning or not acknowledging the change, either perished or fell into slavery. Those who immediately fell to their knees found a safe way down, but it still led down. They had to stay on their knees all the way; no one could have stood up on that slope because it was too steep and narrow. Falling to our knees speaks of prayer. As soon as we see the fog, or confusion, we must pray for every step we take thereafter.

That no one ascended, but all went down to the bottom of the cliff, spoke to me that the economy of the whole world was going down. Many will survive what is coming, but not at the level they are presently. Much of our present standard of living has been built upon credit, borrowing from the future, and the future is now here. We are fast approaching the time when the bills will have to be paid. That will cause a drastic reduction of our present lifestyles.

I felt that the slave ships were banks. During the Great Depression, banks were so over extended that most of them failed. Somehow, they have now positioned themselves to not only survive another economic collapse, but will actually be in a place to enslave those who are in debt to them...

A Field of Dreams or Nightmares? by Rick Joyner | MorningStar Prophetic Bulletins 2012
 
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Hidden In Him

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The following vision is instead what is likely about to come to pass. It is a warning for believers to trust the Lord for their financial welfare rather than keep borrowing from creditors, because the standard of living we enjoyed up until now, especially in the States, is now about to become a thing of the past. Those who incur more debt now will place themselves in danger of being in bondage to it for a very long time to come, as paying off debt will become extremely difficult in the not too distant future.


There was also a direct prophecy given concerning the US economy about four months ago, stating that we have this year alone to prepare for what is coming, because the US economy is going to suffer severely while China emerges as the dominant economy in the world. If I did not state it clearly enough in the OP, none of this should disturb the peace of those who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and walk close to Him. The Lord will guide them step by step every step of the way, so long as they keep turning to Him in prayer for guidance, help and direction.

The prophecy states as follows:

"2020 is a year of preparation. From 2021 on... the President of China will arise mightily and strong like the mighty statue of Nebuchadnezzar. He will seek to bring all nations under his control. He will gain great strength to dominate the world's economy... once a nation becomes economically strong, other nations will bow down to listen. Thirdly, the United States of America. It will weaken in strength and dominance. It will be like a molting eagle without strength or vigor. Its feathers will be plucked away. Its beak will be broken and cast away. Even its eyes will be gouged out and thrown away. It will become helpless, purposeless." - Sadhu Selveraj.

The Eagle is the national emblem of the United States, so the symbolism is playing off of this analogy. When an eagle goes into molting it indeed becomes helpless. It can't fly, so it must scavenge for food as best it can, which leads to further weakness and deterioration of health. The word "purposeless" here likely refers to mass unemployment, which again will be all the more reason not to incur increasing debt.

I have more things I will be posting on this later; videos from economists regarding the current direction things are now taking, and the implications for our future way of life.

Hidden
 

Josho

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Posted this elsewhere, but out of care for this community I thought it should be posted here as well. Some are saying the world economy will rebound from Covid-19, but as much as I would like to believe that to be true, I believe it to be a very uninformed opinion.

The following vision is instead what is likely about to come to pass. It is a warning for believers to trust the Lord for their financial welfare rather than keep borrowing from creditors, because the standard of living we enjoyed up until now, especially in the States, is now about to become a thing of the past. Those who incur more debt now will place themselves in danger of being in bondage to it for a very long time to come, as paying off debt will become extremely difficult in the not too distant future.

The following vision was given two decades ago, but I believe its fulfillment is now at hand.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
_______________

A Field Of Dreams Or Nightmares?

While praying about the future of our economy, I was given a vision of a long, lush green field. I felt that this represented a long period of economic prosperity, which has generally been the case since that time. While praying in August 1995, I saw this field in a vision again, but with much more detail. The end of the field was covered in fog. Not far into the fog there was a very steep cliff. In the middle of the cliff, there was a narrow, twisting, steep path that appeared like a descending bridge. It had the same green grass on it that the field did and went all the way to the bottom.

Those who walked into the fog almost all missed the little path and fell over the cliff. Some of these died, but nets below the cliffs caught many of them. However, these nets were not there to save the people but to trap them. Others entered the fog carefully, dropping to their knees and searching for the path, which they seemed to intuitively know was there. Most of those looking for the path were able to find it and carefully started down on their knees. A few people had parachutes, and they jumped off the cliff into the fog.

At the bottom there was a sea with four kinds of ships in the harbor: slave ships, warships, luxury liners, and hospital ships. Most of the ships were slavers. The next greatest number was warships. There were only five hospital ships, all of which were on clean, well-kept docks right in the middle of the harbor. The two luxury liners were docked at each end of the harbor. An abundance of supplies were on their docks, but both the docks and ships looked filthy and poorly maintained. No warships were docked, but all kept moving about in the harbor.

The people who fell into the nets were put on the slave ships...


Interpretation and Insights

That I can now see the end of this field indicates that the end of our economic prosperity is now in sight. What I saw at the end was much more catastrophic than I had ever thought. There are some very dark times ahead, but at the same time there is a whole new world being built right in our midst that is more wonderful than we can even imagine.

To the degree that we have built our lives and faith on the economy of the world, we have built on a very shaky foundation. We know that the time will come when everything that can be shaken will be. The time that we have been given until that happens is for the purpose of preparation. Let us build our hope and trust on the kingdom that alone cannot be shaken.

Those who kept walking into the fog just as they had been walking in the open field, not discerning or not acknowledging the change, either perished or fell into slavery. Those who immediately fell to their knees found a safe way down, but it still led down. They had to stay on their knees all the way; no one could have stood up on that slope because it was too steep and narrow. Falling to our knees speaks of prayer. As soon as we see the fog, or confusion, we must pray for every step we take thereafter.

That no one ascended, but all went down to the bottom of the cliff, spoke to me that the economy of the whole world was going down. Many will survive what is coming, but not at the level they are presently. Much of our present standard of living has been built upon credit, borrowing from the future, and the future is now here. We are fast approaching the time when the bills will have to be paid. That will cause a drastic reduction of our present lifestyles.

I felt that the slave ships were banks. During the Great Depression, banks were so over extended that most of them failed. Somehow, they have now positioned themselves to not only survive another economic collapse, but will actually be in a place to enslave those who are in debt to them...

A Field of Dreams or Nightmares? by Rick Joyner | MorningStar Prophetic Bulletins 2012

And now people are using services like Zip Pay and After Pay, I have never used them, and don't plan too. It sounds like a trap.
 

Huperetes

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There was also a direct prophecy given concerning the US economy about four months ago, stating that we have this year alone to prepare for what is coming, because the US economy is going to suffer severely while China emerges as the dominant economy in the world. If I did not state it clearly enough in the OP, none of this should disturb the peace of those who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and walk close to Him. The Lord will guide them step by step every step of the way, so long as they keep turning to Him in prayer for guidance, help and direction.

The prophecy states as follows:

"2020 is a year of preparation. From 2021 on... the President of China will arise mightily and strong like the mighty statue of Nebuchadnezzar. He will seek to bring all nations under his control. He will gain great strength to dominate the world's economy... once a nation becomes economically strong, other nations will bow down to listen. Thirdly, the United States of America. It will weaken in strength and dominance. It will be like a molting eagle without strength or vigor. Its feathers will be plucked away. Its beak will be broken and cast away. Even its eyes will be gouged out and thrown away. It will become helpless, purposeless." - Sadhu Selveraj.

The Eagle is the national emblem of the United States, so the symbolism is playing off of this analogy. When an eagle goes into molting it indeed becomes helpless. It can't fly, so it must scavenge for food as best it can, which leads to further weakness and deterioration of health. The word "purposeless" here likely refers to mass unemployment, which again will be all the more reason not to incur increasing debt.

I have more things I will be posting on this later; videos from economists regarding the current direction things are now taking, and the implications for our future way of life.

Hidden
Who gave this prophecy? I have heard some prophesy quite the opposite. I wouldn't worry about China. The globalist have a set agenda for her and it doesn't include becoming the world's number 1 economy. In fact, their near monopoly on manufacturing has been exposed. The US and other western nations are developing backup plans that will siphon off a large amount of China's industry. The real fear that presents itself is the judgement of God on this nation for it's casual acceptance of homosexuality and the murder of the unborn.
 

Hidden In Him

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And now people are using services like Zip Pay and After Pay, I have never used them, and don't plan too. It sounds like a trap.


That's an Australian thing atm, but it might just catch on elsewhere.

Seems like an oh so easy solution, but banks always love making it as easy as possible for people to get into debt. They hand credit cards over to the college kids here like it's candy. Never mind the fact that it will take them decades - even in a strong economy - to pay it all off. I suspect bankruptcies and loan defaults on a massive scale eventually, but that will just all the more grind the economy to a halt, because it will eventually raise interest rates through the roof after banks no longer have money to lend. No ability to borrow will lead to total stagnation, perpetuating what is called stagflation; extremely high prices with very little growth.

I think it will be time to learn contentment with the things we have, which shouldn't be too hard for Christians - at least the non-materialist ones who have their eyes focused on the Lord, and are seeking to lead a spiritual life.
 
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Hidden In Him

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The US and other western nations are developing backup plans that will siphon off a large amount of China's industry.


This would be good, but they are making plans as well.
Let this thread play out for a little while before we get deeper into the China-US trade war. I want to focus in the immediate on the implications for the US way of life first. I suspect this will be a long-running thread anyway.

God bless
 

Hidden In Him

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Noticed this yesterday, and I think it confirms what I was saying in the OP, and what the prophecy in Post #2 states about the year 2021 and beyond.

 

Hidden In Him

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This is largely a repeat of what I was saying in the OP.

NEW YORK (Project Syndicate) — After the 2007-09 financial crisis, the imbalances and risks pervading the global economy were exacerbated by policy mistakes. So, rather than address the structural problems that the financial collapse and ensuing recession revealed, governments mostly kicked the can down the road, creating major downside risks that made another crisis inevitable.

And now that it has arrived, the risks are growing even more acute. Unfortunately, even if the Greater Recession leads to a lackluster U-shaped recovery this year, an L-shaped “Greater Depression” will follow later in this decade...

The first trend concerns deficits and their corollary risks: debts and defaults.

The policy response to the COVID-19 crisis entails a massive increase in fiscal deficits — on the order of 10% of GDP or more — at a time when public debt levels in many countries were already high, if not unsustainable... the loss of income for many households and firms means that private-sector debt levels will become unsustainable, too, potentially leading to mass defaults and bankruptcies. Together with soaring levels of public debt, this all but ensures a more anemic recovery than the one that followed the Great Recession a decade ago.

A second factor is the demographic time bomb in advanced economies.

The coronavirus crisis shows that much more public spending must be allocated to health systems, and that universal health care and other relevant public goods are necessities, not luxuries. Yet, because most developed countries have aging societies, funding such outlays in the future will make the implicit debts from today’s unfunded health-care and social-security systems even larger.

A third issue is the growing risk of deflation.

In addition to causing a deep recession, the crisis is also creating a massive slack in goods (unused machines and capacity) and labor markets (mass unemployment), as well as driving a price collapse in commodities such as oil and industrial metals. That makes debt deflation likely, increasing the risk of insolvency.

A fourth (related) factor will be currency debasement.

As central banks try to fight deflation and head off the risk of surging interest rates (following from the massive debt build-up), monetary policies will become even more unconventional and far-reaching. In the short run, governments will need to run monetized fiscal deficits to avoid depression and deflation. Yet, over time, the permanent negative supply shocks from accelerated de-globalization and renewed protectionism will make stagflation all but inevitable...

The coming Greater Depression of the 2020s



In short, massive increases in public and private debt, combined with debt deflation [i.e. declines in net worth as price levels fall while debt burdens remain unchanged], will lead to further defaults and bankruptcies, which in turn will so weaken the ability of banks to lend money that interest rates will go through the roof. Again, that means eventually few will even be able to borrow money anymore, leading to long-term stagnation in the markets, with the price of the few products that continue to be produced becoming permanently higher.

It means whatever we have now (and actually own) may be what we need to be content with, because purchasing power will greatly diminish, and the debt load for those who bury themselves in it will become extremely difficult to get out from under.

 
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Rita

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Posted this elsewhere, but out of care for this community I thought it should be posted here as well. Some are saying the world economy will rebound from Covid-19, but as much as I would like to believe that to be true, I think it is a very uninformed opinion
Interesting, prophecy against prophecy I see....given that someone has posted about this a few days ago, what they posted was very much in line with a number of other prophecies that have been heard....also what they convey falls in line with something that has been laid on my heart over the last few months.....(opposite to what you convey ) ...basically within your words you are actually conveying that you do not believe what others have conveyed from God, but expect others to believe what you claim to be from God. ............
You are also claiming that others who have conveyed things from God are uniformed ..........
You are also presuming that the prophecy is linked to this particular time frame, where as the prophecy and words given recently have been given by God at this present time ...........also the prophesy recently given revolves around the whole of Gods creation
I felt really uneasy about your interpretation of certain dreams on another thread, more so because it just didn’t feel right - still doesn’t ......and all the thread materialised into was arguments. Prophecy is given to edify, encourage and exhort...........
I am so sorry, but there is something very wrong here.....don’t know what it is exactly, a bit like the other thread- a sense that YOU yourself lay behind some of the words, and not God ........anyway, the test of anything given will be time ...........
I am sure you are aware of what it says in scripture about proclaiming something as being from God, that isn’t............
I don’t mean to cause offence in anyway, but cannot just sit here and say nothing x
I will be the first one to apologise if I am wrong x
Rita
 
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Randy Kluth

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There was also a direct prophecy given concerning the US economy about four months ago, stating that we have this year alone to prepare for what is coming, because the US economy is going to suffer severely while China emerges as the dominant economy in the world. If I did not state it clearly enough in the OP, none of this should disturb the peace of those who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and walk close to Him. The Lord will guide them step by step every step of the way, so long as they keep turning to Him in prayer for guidance, help and direction.

The prophecy states as follows:

"2020 is a year of preparation. From 2021 on... the President of China will arise mightily and strong like the mighty statue of Nebuchadnezzar. He will seek to bring all nations under his control. He will gain great strength to dominate the world's economy... once a nation becomes economically strong, other nations will bow down to listen. Thirdly, the United States of America. It will weaken in strength and dominance. It will be like a molting eagle without strength or vigor. Its feathers will be plucked away. Its beak will be broken and cast away. Even its eyes will be gouged out and thrown away. It will become helpless, purposeless." - Sadhu Selveraj.

The Eagle is the national emblem of the United States, so the symbolism is playing off of this analogy. When an eagle goes into molting it indeed becomes helpless. It can't fly, so it must scavenge for food as best it can, which leads to further weakness and deterioration of health. The word "purposeless" here likely refers to mass unemployment, which again will be all the more reason not to incur increasing debt.

I have more things I will be posting on this later; videos from economists regarding the current direction things are now taking, and the implications for our future way of life.

Hidden

I sometimes listen to Sadhu Selveraj--I was disappointed, however, that he said little about the current pandemic in advance. That would've validated his predictions. But he may have said more about this in the past--I haven't heard everything he's foretold. He seems like a good man.

I've resuscitated my books of David Wilkerson's visions, and have been utterly amazed by the accuracy! I tended to lay them aside for some years because the Big Earthquake in the US never happened--actually a number of earthquakes--and he held to a personal belief I did not adhere to. Wilkerson was Pretrib, and I'm Postrib. Selveraj is also Postrib.

But prophets do not have to have perfect theology to see visions and to relate them to us. I also had a problem with Wilkerson identifying the US with Harlot Babylon, and wrote him about my concern. He said he was not expositing the Rev 17 passage, but explaining how he saw US as Harlot Babylon in his vision.

Well, it's very possible, I think now, that Wilkerson's prophecies were correct, despite some theological issues I may have with him. That on top of a fresh look I've taken at John Paul Jackson's prophecy in 2008 of the Coming Perfect Storm. That also is incredibly accurate, and unfulfilled prophecies, such as earthquakes and a volcano, do not throw me off.

The economic disasters, as well as the epidemic, were prophesied by both Wilkerson and Jackson. And it seems you're relating something similar from Selveraj. If you have anything more on this, I'd be interested. God has been able to navigate us through some deep waters over the last decade, and I want to remain "tuned in."
 
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Hidden In Him

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I don’t mean to cause offense in anyway, but cannot just sit here and say nothing x


Not a problem, Rita, and I appreciate your concerns. Yes, there are differing messages going forth, but I don't deliberately try to contradict anyone. This thread was actually posted over at another forum more than a month ago, and is something God laid on my heart as a result of certain prophecies that came back to my memory, plus others I ran across.

You are referring to another prophecy that counters this one. May I ask which one it is? I can take a look. I did read a thread a day or two ago prophesying the Coronavirus ending, and I disagree. Even should the Covid-19 epidemic end soon, there are now prophesies going forth that an even worse one is coming, as a judgment for how the nation of Israel has been treated. But I have received no direct messages or read any prophesies that say anything about when the Coronavirus epidemic will end one way or another, so I have left that subject alone. But this message is based on the prophecies of Rick Joyner and Sadhu Selveraj, both of whom I respect.

Anyway, God bless, and I take no offense.
Prophecy is given to edify, encourage and exhort...........


I won't read into this statement since it is left open-ended. I'd only respond by saying that some (not you, necessarily) seem to argue that prophecy is only to edify and encourage. This is false, however. Most of the prophesies contained in scripture are distinctly negative in nature and prophecy judgments, whether it be upon people individually or upon cities and nations. They can also be spoken to edify and encourage, so one must have a balanced view in regard to their purpose.

Thanks for the post, and I hope I have not made you an enemy in posting this thread. I did so out of a desire to help people, especially believers, avoid bringing any more undue hardships upon themselves than is necessary.

God bless,
Yours,
Hidden In Him
 
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Rita

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I am not sure you will be interested in the prophecy if you already believe that the coronavirus will not end , but that causes concern as you are already deciding that you don’t believe it- which means you believe that it is not from God .......by the conclusion that you have reached. Just because you don’t personally believe it, doesn’t mean you are right ........
There was always purpose and meaning within prophecy, I mean look at revelation- it is full of negatives, but the overall message is one of hope and victory, and that is what we are to cling on to .
Prophecy were often given with warnings, but time for the hearers to respond and turn things around, if they didn’t then they faced what was proclaimed.
The recent prophecy, and the burdens I have had myself very much revolve around Gods people humbling themselves - that the virus itself will be used to bring that about ( very much in line with Romans 8:28 )
It still involves suffering, but bring hope ............
Time will be the true test ..........
I shared my concerns, you shared a response, it’s up to each of us to reflect on what has been said and conveyed xx
Rita
 
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Hidden In Him

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I sometimes listen to Sadhu Selveraj--I was disappointed, however, that he said little about the current pandemic in advance. That would've validated his predictions. But he may have said more about this in the past--I haven't heard everything he's foretold. He seems like a good man.

VERY interesting point, and though we haven't had any interaction yet, I was reading through some of your posts yesterday and found them very sound, so nice meeting you.

I had wondered why no message went forth on it myself. It doesn't appear anyone prophesied it anywhere in advance, which is quite strange actually. I suspect it is not because absolutely no one knew, but that the Lord for whatever reason chose not to reveal it in advance, possibly so that it could not be circumvented, or possibly that it would not cause undue terror. No idea personally. Those are only conjectures, but it is certainly a very curious question in my mind as well.
I've resuscitated my books of David Wilkerson's visions, and have been utterly amazed by the accuracy! I tended to lay them aside for some years because the Big Earthquake in the US never happened--actually a number of earthquakes--and he held to a personal belief I did not adhere to. Wilkerson was Pretrib, and I'm Postrib. Selveraj is also Postrib.

Also a thought-provoking post. We have a thread I created on The Vision here several months back, and it was an interesting discussion. I found his prophecies amazing as well, especially because of how far in advance things were predicted. Most of it hasn't been fulfilled yet still, despite it being obvious that things are going in precisely the directions he prophesied more than 50 years ago.

That is what I believe actually gets true prophets in trouble sometimes. Even they don't realize how distant the fulfillment will be, so they start setting guesstimations (sorry, had to create a word) on the timing of their fulfillment because of their certainty that they are from the Lord, only to end up being wrong on the timing, judging it as happening far sooner than it actually will. But if one looks closely, the apostles were making the same mistake in NT times. They were publicly proclaiming that the Lord's return was at hand because they fully believed in the prophecies going forth about His return. But they assumed it would be fulfilled in their lifetimes, and they were mistaken.

About the Post-Trib/Pre-Trib, there is a simple reason for prophets being occasionally wrong on doctrinal matters, and that is because they are human just like everyone else, and can misinterpret scripture. I am Post-Trib as well, but I wouldn't necessarily disqualify someone as being a true prophet if they taught otherwise, especially during a time when so many were adopting that view (The Late Great Planet Earth was in vogue back then, as I recall).
But prophets do not have to have perfect theology to see visions and to relate them to us. I also had a problem with Wilkerson identifying the US with Harlot Babylon, and wrote him about my concern. He said he was not expositing the Rev 17 passage, but explaining how he saw US as Harlot Babylon in his vision.

Very good! Yes, I would have strongly disagreed with him as well. Even if not referencing Revelation 17 and 18 directly, he would have been confusing things by making indirect reference.
That on top of a fresh look I've taken at John Paul Jackson's prophecy in 2008 of the Coming Perfect Storm. That also is incredibly accurate, and unfulfilled prophecies, such as earthquakes and a volcano, do not throw me off.

That would be an interesting discussion. I read something highly negative about JPJ the other day that disturbed me... trying to remember... but maybe I can find it later. Anyway, I don't know much about the man personally, and Lord knows that the enemy has used lies and slander to smear the names of genuine prophets in the past, so it could be the same with him.
The economic disasters, as well as the epidemic, were prophesied by both Wilkerson and Jackson. And it seems you're relating something similar from Selveraj. If you have anything more on this, I'd be interested. God has been able to navigate us through some deep waters over the last decade, and I want to remain "tuned in."

I'd actually like to read the quotes from Wilkerson and Jackson if you have them, and God bless. Again, I find your posts balanced, considerate, and fairly well thought-out, which is refreshing (and there's not a lot I read on forums that I would call "refreshing," LoL).

Thanks for the response.
Hidden
 
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Hidden In Him

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There was always purpose and meaning within prophecy, I mean look at revelation- it is full of negatives, but the overall message is one of hope and victory, and that is what we are to cling on to .


Absolutely. The one I posted is likewise full of hope. Those who get on bended knee and trust the Lord Jesus Christ with every step will be just fine in the midst of the change. The rest of the vision (not fully quoted) goes on to say that the true church will be powerfully blessed to minister healing to people in the midst of a coming time when even governments can no longer help their people, but themselves become corrupt and part of the oppression. But the church will be a bastion of hope, and the TRUE source of help and ministry to the world; one which even the most corrupt and violent elements in future society will give way to and respect.

Anyway, God bless. And yes, time will tell.
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Giuliano

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This is largely a repeat of what I was saying in the OP.

NEW YORK (Project Syndicate) — After the 2007-09 financial crisis, the imbalances and risks pervading the global economy were exacerbated by policy mistakes. So, rather than address the structural problems that the financial collapse and ensuing recession revealed, governments mostly kicked the can down the road, creating major downside risks that made another crisis inevitable.

And now that it has arrived, the risks are growing even more acute. Unfortunately, even if the Greater Recession leads to a lackluster U-shaped recovery this year, an L-shaped “Greater Depression” will follow later in this decade...

The first trend concerns deficits and their corollary risks: debts and defaults.

The policy response to the COVID-19 crisis entails a massive increase in fiscal deficits — on the order of 10% of GDP or more — at a time when public debt levels in many countries were already high, if not unsustainable... the loss of income for many households and firms means that private-sector debt levels will become unsustainable, too, potentially leading to mass defaults and bankruptcies. Together with soaring levels of public debt, this all but ensures a more anemic recovery than the one that followed the Great Recession a decade ago.
The American total debt is not over 100% of GDP. Income to the Treasury had been going up, meaning paying the national debt down could have been possible; but both Congresses went along with Trump and increased spending. If the total federal debt had been much lower, a one-time spending spree would have been possible to handle this crisis without increasing the debt to an unmanageable level.

State governments were also operating on the brink of bankruptcy. You can see that by how they demand the federal government pay for everything. Corporations had also heavily borrowed. They too lack a financial cushion to get through a few months of crisis without asking the federal government for help. Everyone is going broke; and the federal government is accumulating more power by going deeper and deeper into debt to bail everyone else out.

A second factor is the demographic time bomb in advanced economies.

The coronavirus crisis shows that much more public spending must be allocated to health systems, and that universal health care and other relevant public goods are necessities, not luxuries. Yet, because most developed countries have aging societies, funding such outlays in the future will make the implicit debts from today’s unfunded health-care and social-security systems even larger.
Maybe the US needs to figure out who is responsible for what when it comes to health care. The current model has failed. Having corporations and insurance companies calling the shots -- with the federal government bailing them out when they fail -- isn't working. Those companies made big bucks before the crisis; but they were completely unprepared for this.

A third issue is the growing risk of deflation.

In addition to causing a deep recession, the crisis is also creating a massive slack in goods (unused machines and capacity) and labor markets (mass unemployment), as well as driving a price collapse in commodities such as oil and industrial metals. That makes debt deflation likely, increasing the risk of insolvency.
I don't expect oil ever come back to what it had been. Trump's promises there won't happen. It did encourage new companies to start drilling. Some them are so heavily in debt, a bail out wouldn't save them. They couldn't repay a loan. I don't expect a collapse in the natural gas markets -- indeed I bought some stocks that do both oil and gas. They went down because of the fall in the price of oil; but I expect them to rebound nicely over time. They did rebound already, but I expect them to go up even more.

I don't know too much about industrial metals; but I know lots of them come from China. I don't understand enough about the supply chain to make a prediction there. What I can say, however, is that some key metals used in manufacturing of electronics come mostly from China. Trump needs to tread carefully then. He may want more manufacturing to return to the US; but China has the ability to cut off the exporting of some key elements.

A fourth (related) factor will be currency debasement.

As central banks try to fight deflation and head off the risk of surging interest rates (following from the massive debt build-up), monetary policies will become even more unconventional and far-reaching. In the short run, governments will need to run monetized fiscal deficits to avoid depression and deflation. Yet, over time, the permanent negative supply shocks from accelerated de-globalization and renewed protectionism will make stagflation all but inevitable...

The coming Greater Depression of the 2020s
Like it or not, I expect to see increases in the federal income tax after the election. It doesn't matter who wins the election. Those increases will be aimed mostly at people with higher income. The Democrats won't hesitate to do it; and I think Republicans will feel compelled to raise taxes in order to reduce the national debt. There were rumors before this virus crisis that Trump was planning to raise taxes after the election. You can see why he wouldn't want to before it.

The Fed is in a bad spot. If it raises interest rates, the interest on the national debt would be crushing. Most of the money coming into the Treasury would be spent on interest. If they don't raise rates, people will continue to see debt as easier than saving. Why save money if you get next to nothing as interest? Why should banks lend to people, taking risks, if the interest rate is so low?


In short, massive increases in public and private debt, combined with debt deflation [i.e. declines in net worth as price levels fall while debt burdens remain unchanged], will lead to further defaults and bankruptcies, which in turn will so weaken the ability of banks to lend money that interest rates will go through the roof. Again, that means eventually few will even be able to borrow money anymore, leading to long-term stagnation in the markets, with the price of the few products that continue to be produced becoming permanently higher.

It means whatever we have now (and actually own) may be what we need to be content with, because purchasing power will greatly diminish, and the debt load for those who bury themselves in it will become extremely difficult to get out from under.
Inflation would be one way to get rid of the national debt. Remember how Johnson spent like crazy on the war in Vietnam and the war on poverty? The Fed seemed to think raising interest rates and allowing inflation to take over was one way to lower the debt: You borrow dollars that worth something and repay them with dollars that are worth far less.

There are other factors that concern me. China's debt is also high. They have lots of loans out in the Third World too. Venezuela was too poor long ago to pay back what they owed the Chinese. How many other countries are going to default on loans to China, and what will China's response be? They look more and more aggressive lately. Will the Chinese military invade countries to seize companies that owe them, or will twisting arms be enough?

What will Russia do? They had enough cash reserves to take on Saudi Arabia in a game of bluff -- but how much longer will their cash last?

Saudi Arabia also looks unstable to me. There's been discontent there for years, mostly placated by freebies handed out to people to keep them from revolting. For the present, the coronavirus has hit immigrants workers there more than locals; but it is a real problem. I completely expect Iran (with its own desperate problems) to try to take advantage of it. Last year, they had attacks on oil fields from drones -- probably from rebels in Yemen backed by Iran. The drones were made in China. No one seems to care if China is selling drones that have the potential to disrupt the global oil supply.
 
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Randy Kluth

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VERY interesting point, and though we haven't had any interaction yet, I was reading through some of your posts yesterday and found them very sound, so nice meeting you.

I had wondered why no message went forth on it myself. It doesn't appear anyone prophesied it anywhere in advance, which is quite strange actually. I suspect it is not because absolutely no one knew, but that the Lord for whatever reason chose not to reveal it in advance, possibly so that it could not be circumvented, or possibly that it would not cause undue terror. No idea personally. Those are only conjectures, but it is certainly a very curious question in my mind as well.


Also a thought-provoking post. We have a thread I created on The Vision here several months back, and it was an interesting discussion. I found his prophecies amazing as well, especially because of how far in advance things were predicted. Most of it hasn't been fulfilled yet still, despite it being obvious that things are going in precisely the directions he prophesied more than 50 years ago.

That is what I believe actually gets true prophets in trouble sometimes. Even they don't realize how distant the fulfillment will be, so they start setting guesstimations (sorry, had to create a word) on the timing of their fulfillment because of their certainty that they are from the Lord, only to end up being wrong on the timing, judging it as happening far sooner than it actually will. But if one looks closely, the apostles were making the same mistake in NT times. They were publicly proclaiming that the Lord's return was at hand because they fully believed in the prophecies going forth about His return. But they assumed it would be fulfilled in their lifetimes, and they were mistaken.

About the Post-Trib/Pre-Trib, there is a simple reason for prophets being occasionally wrong on doctrinal matters, and that is because they are human just like everyone else, and can misinterpret scripture. I am Post-Trib as well, but I wouldn't necessarily disqualify someone as being a true prophet if they taught otherwise, especially during a time when so many were adopting that view (The Late Great Planet Earth was in vogue back then, as I recall).


Very good! Yes, I would have strongly disagreed with him as well. Even if not referencing Revelation 17 and 18 directly, he would have been confusing things by making indirect reference.


That would be an interesting discussion. I read something highly negative about JPJ the other day that disturbed me... trying to remember... but maybe I can find it later. Anyway, I don't know much about the man personally, and Lord knows that the enemy has used lies and slander to smear the names of genuine prophets in the past, so it could be the same with him.


I'd actually like to read the quotes from Wilkerson and Jackson if you have them, and God bless. Again, I find your posts balanced, considerate, and fairly well thought-out, which is refreshing, LoL (there's not a lot I read on forums that I would call "refreshing").

Thanks for the response.
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I actually 1st acquired Wilkerson's The Vision somehwere in the time frame of 73-74, when it 1st came out in paperback. I was in Germany at the time, and over some years saw it come to pass. When his book Set the Trumpet to Thy Mouth came out, I began to withdraw from him, particularly because people in church were concerned. It appeared to be sensational and legalistic, eg the banning of TV sets. And the prediction of American being attacked by nuclear bombs seemed incredible to me.

But Wilkerson has always come back to me, and I do see how horrible TV has become. Fortunately, I watch very little of it anyway--so much now caters to homosexuality, the occult, and sadism of various kinds. And with America's moral collapse I can see how God might bring enemies against us, to humble those of us who live in the US.

I have a more personal connection to Wilkerson, but won't get into that here. Let me just say that I have had the highest respect for his spiritual integrity. And I agree with you on the prophetic "timing" issue. I don't think the apostles all believed in the imminency of Christ's return, as if often reported. But I do think many Christians may have mistaken the urgency of spiritual decision Jesus asked for with eschatological imminency.

And yes, I think Wilkerson's prophecies are extending well past his predicted time frame, although in his defense, the time frame he gave did have most of the prophecies fulfilled. Only relative few big prophecies were deferred to a much later time (I'm supposing).

My own interpretation of Rev 17 sees the Harlot Babylon as Rome. But in light of Wilkerson's prophecy about US declining like "Mystery Babylon," I've taken a new look at this. Rome's descendants might include the US, as well as Europe. So the US could potentially be part of a Roman "Babylon" demise. But I continue to believe that Rome is the "Mystery Babylon" in Rev 17 for the present. I think Antichrist will be an utterly pagan part of Europe, and will hate the corrupt Church in Europe, destroying Rome. This is pure speculation on my part.

John Paul Jackson on the "Coming Perfect Storm": youtube john paul jackson storm - safesearch.norton.com Video Search Results
 
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Rita

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Absolutely. The one I posted is likewise full of hope. Those who get on bended knee and trust the Lord Jesus Christ with every step will be just fine in the midst of the change. The rest of the vision (not fully quoted) goes on to say that the true church will be powerfully blessed to minister healing to people in the midst of a coming time when even governments can no longer help their people, but themselves become corrupt and part of the oppression. But the church will be a bastion of hope, and the TRUE source of help and ministry to the world; one which even the most corrupt and violent elements in future society will give way to and respect.

Anyway, God bless. And yes, time will tell.
Hidden
Just curious, but why would you leave off posting the last part of the vision in your original post .......more so if it contained the above.........if something is to be given and weighed up, should it not be given as a whole ?
Rita
 
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Hidden In Him

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What I can say, however, is that some key metals used in manufacturing of electronics come mostly from China. Trump needs to tread carefully then. He may want more manufacturing to return to the US; but China has the ability to cut off the exporting of some key elements.

Yes. And this is something I eventually wanted to get into with @Huperetes, but maybe you two could discuss it while I focus more on the immediate concern to the US and world economies. But I read an article yesterday that was saying largely the same things.

Let me find it before I lose it...
Like a real ‘Manchurian candidate,’ Trump will make China great

I personally view Trump as a good man, but he could never have circumvented this judgment no matter what he did, although I do think that the US protectionist stand that got him elected may now open the door to the prophesies going forth about China gaining the upper hand. They are not playing around over there. They have set dead aim on global economic dominance. They've had a 50 year plan put in place to achieve it, but I don't think it's going to take that long. I think it is about to fall into their lap much sooner than that.
Like it or not, I expect to see increases in the federal income tax after the election. It doesn't matter who wins the election. Those increases will be aimed mostly at people with higher income.

And stagnate the economy even further. I agree, and in case I didn't post it yet, while Trump would likely be in over his head with what is coming, he stated publicly in a new conference a few weeks ago that if Biden wins the election, China is going to OWN the United States, as Biden will be an "easy mark." I think Biden is corrupt, and would be a globalist traitor to this country, so we would be on the losing end regardless.
The Fed is in a bad spot. If it raises interest rates, the interest on the national debt would be crushing. Most of the money coming into the Treasury would be spent on interest. If they don't raise rates, people will continue to see debt as easier than saving. Why save money if you get next to nothing as interest?

They are trying to save the Titanic at this point. It won't work.
Inflation would be one way to get rid of the national debt. Remember how Johnson spent like crazy on the war in Vietnam and the war on poverty? The Fed seemed to think raising interest rates and allowing inflation to take over was one way to lower the debt: You borrow dollars that worth something and repay them with dollars that are worth far less.

Interesting insight.
They look more and more aggressive lately. Will the Chinese military invade countries to seize companies that owe them, or will twisting arms be enough?

They are being aggressive. But I don't know if it will manifest militarily. I don't think it will need to. I think they will establish dominance economically, through trade, by having the upper hand in production capability and cheap labor.


What will Russia do? They had enough cash reserves to take on Saudi Arabia in a game of bluff -- but how much longer will their cash last?

Saudi Arabia also looks unstable to me. There's been discontent there for years, mostly placated by freebies handed out to people to keep them from revolting. For the present, the coronavirus has hit immigrants workers there more than locals; but it is a real problem. I completely expect Iran (with its own desperate problems) to try to take advantage of it. Last year, they had attacks on oil fields from drones -- probably from rebels in Yemen backed by Iran. The drones were made in China. No one seems to care if China is selling drones that have the potential to disrupt the global oil supply.

Also interesting. And yes, they appear to be using every trick in the book.

Good post. Thanks. Glad to have your input.
 
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Hidden In Him

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I actually 1st acquired Wilkerson's The Vision somehwere in the time frame of 73-74, when it 1st came out in paperback. I was in Germany at the time, and over some years saw it come to pass. When his book Set the Trumpet to Thy Mouth came out, I began to withdraw from him, particularly because people in church were concerned. It appeared to be sensational and legalistic, eg the banning of TV sets. And the prediction of American being attacked by nuclear bombs seemed incredible to me.

But Wilkerson has always come back to me, and I do see how horrible TV has become. Fortunately, I watch very little of it anyway--so much now caters to homosexuality, the occult, and sadism of various kinds. And with America's moral collapse I can see how God might bring enemies against us, to humble those of us who live in the US.

I have a more personal connection to Wilkerson, but won't get into that here. Let me just say that I have had the highest respect for his spiritual integrity. And I agree with you on the prophetic "timing" issue. I don't think the apostles all believed in the imminency of Christ's return, as if often reported. But I do think many Christians may have mistaken the urgency of spiritual decision Jesus asked for with eschatological imminency.

And yes, I think Wilkerson's prophecies are extending well past his predicted time frame, although in his defense, the time frame he gave did have most of the prophecies fulfilled. Only relative few big prophecies were deferred to a much later time (I'm supposing).

My own interpretation of Rev 17 sees the Harlot Babylon as Rome. But in light of Wilkerson's prophecy about US declining like "Mystery Babylon," I've taken a new look at this. Rome's descendants might include the US, as well as Europe. So the US could potentially be part of a Roman "Babylon" demise. But I continue to believe that Rome is the "Mystery Babylon" in Rev 17 for the present. I think Antichrist will be an utterly pagan part of Europe, and will hate the corrupt Church in Europe, destroying Rome. This is pure speculation on my part.

John Paul Jackson on the "Coming Perfect Storm": youtube john paul jackson storm - safesearch.norton.com Video Search Results


Thanks, and I will definitely take a look later. Need to log off for a bit.

God bless.
 

Hidden In Him

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Just curious, but why would you leave off posting the last part of the vision in your original post .......more so if it contained the above.........if something is to be given and weighed up, should it not be given as a whole ?
Rita


Just focusing in this thread on the parts most pertinent to what I am trying to communicate in the OP. I do the same thing with the dreams I post. I withhold parts that are not directly related to the subject at hand, so as to avoid clutter.

God bless, Rita, and thanks for your posts.