Bible As Truth Vs. Intellectualism

[veteran]

Who has noticed that believing God's Word The Bible as written in Its simplicity and man's training of intellectualism are in conflict with each other? What did Apostle Paul call that working?

I recall being invited to a certain Protestant Church (which I won't say which denomination), and the pastor had a doctorate from Vanderbilt University. He said he was going to preach on Timothy in the New Testament. So I got my Bible out and opened to 1 Timothy, waiting for what part he was going to cover. The whole sermon he never quoted one single verse from God's Word.

Instead, he went on supposition that Apostle Paul had legally adopted Timothy, which is not written (yet some scholars believe). And then he used that as a Socialist platform telling Americans they need to adopt children from other nations.

The only part of his message that was Biblical at all was the point that we are to help the poor, the fatherless, the widow. But nowhere does God's Word infer that means literally adopting children specifically from OTHER nations, especially when there's plenty of needy children in our own nation.

Some go to that Church because of that pastor's education, having a Ph.D. from Vanderbilt and all. That was one of the reasons I was invited to hear him preach, which I told the person inviting me it doesn't necessarily mean God called them to preach. That person was wrapped up in a spirit of intellectualism, showing more respect for man's education than following the simplicity that is God's Word. It was the pastor's doctorate that apealled more to that person.

This doesn't mean all highly educated pastors are like that one though. I recall covering a deep subject from the OT to a friend who had a hard time believing it. But his Church had a separate pastor duty who was a Hebrew scholar. His pastor covered it how I did, and my friend came back to me and told me, which he then believed it. But why then? Most likely out of more respect for a title and university education his pastor had? Most likely, which again tends to show more respect for intellectualism from university education than the simplicity in God's Word as written. The difference with his pastor and that one I went to hear? The latter one obviously knew about the simplicity of God's Word, and didn't allow his education to get in Its way. He used his education in favor of God's Word, and not the other way around.

 

[aspen]

We can go too far preaching a message that moves away from God's Sovereignty - Elaine Pagels, a scholar at Princeton is a good example. She is not interested in God at all, instead she promotes the idea that all four gospels were owned by different first century churches who held different political viewpoints - the NT is a political document in her mind

Bishop Spong believes the only way to save Christianity is to take out the Theism.

Yes, heretics and atheists are interested in studying the Bible as a secular document.

But the answer to intellectualism is not to swing the other direction and embrace an anti-intellectual approach to reading the Bible - strict literalism of the scriptures and demanding that people memorize scripture without thinking about it or even relying on commentary - and God forbid, read the ideas and commentaries from theologians belonging to antiquity,

Both extremes are not useful.

 

[amadeus]

That which is perfectly clear to the flesh is not necessarily the Way that it is. If our mental abilities really made such a difference, then those with the higher IQ's and those with the greater incentives to study would be those that were closest to the Lord. This is not how it is. Jesus said how it is here:

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" Matt 19:24

The riches of which Jesus speaks are not only counted in money, but also in intelligence, and in opportunities [e.g. born to the right family or even in the right country], or in education, etc.

Why do you suppose that none of the original 12 apostles were naturally wealthy or well-educated? Paul, not among the 12, was an exception. The "Pauls" of today with their money, and their influence, and their education and their opportunities will have the most difficulty making it into His Kingdom. Isn't this the same situation that existed in Judea about 2,000 years ago?

Bruce what is the shortest distance between two points? In the first geometry I ever had in school they taught us that it was a "straight line".

Later, I learned a little about Einstein's theory of Relativity and apparently the rule that I learned about the shortest distance was incorrect. So much for the mind of man and the things which are obvious. I still cannot in my mind conceive of space being curved? Is my mind wrong?

Obviously the world is flat, right? It sure looks flat to me!

 

[aspen]

Not everyone is a theologian and not everyone is mother teresa - we all have our strengths. I think people get in trouble when they think they have to fill every role. For example, Mother Teresa didn't have a complicated theology - it was as basic as it gets, actually. In fact, she has been judged for not being a theologian - yet she served God everyday of her life in extraordinary ways

 

[TexUs]

Some go to that Church because of that pastor's education, having a Ph.D. from Vanderbilt and all. That was one of the reasons I was invited to hear him preach, which I told the person inviting me it doesn't necessarily mean God called them to preach.

That's why, while seminaries can be good for educating people that are, seminaries also equip people not called to the position by giving them a "certificate of completion".


Back in Paul's day, you apprenticed (look at Timothy). You were brought up as a leader in the church and people could verify your doctrine as you learned.


That's just a side point but one I find interesting.







Secondly, the Bible is anything but "simple", Peter even says Paul's letters are hard to understand. The destructive teachings of the Roman Catholic Church for so many years ingrained in people's minds that "the trained" were the proper people to tell us what the Bible said. I still think, to this day, we are fighting off that ridiculousness.
I also think, we are returning to that ridiculousness. If you can get people to think, even subtly, that they need a "professional" to teach them, it means more money in the plate. Same reason the Catholics were doing it back in the day, and I think we are returning to that once again.






I do think God is raising up a remnant of believers in the world, and I can see it in America. I firmly and 100% believe the people sitting in church, as well as most of the people preaching to them, aren't saved. (This is Biblical- "narrow is the gate and few find it").
I think there is a remnant, once more, that God is raising up. I also think the United States, as well as the world abroad, is heading for a financial collapse which will send us back into the 1800s. Suddenly, community becomes huge- and everything I've mentioned changes. It's the next great revival and reformation.




For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

 

[Anastacia]

Not everyone is a theologian and not everyone is mother teresa - we all have our strengths. I think people get in trouble when they think they have to fill every role. For example, Mother Teresa didn't have a complicated theology - it was as basic as it gets, actually. In fact, she has been judged for not being a theologian - yet she served God everyday of her life in extraordinary ways

Speaking of Mother Teresa..... How many knew these things about Mother Teresa? Here are things written in her diaries.

“In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God and that he does not really exist.”

Il Messeggero, Rome’s popular daily newspaper, said: “The real Mother Teresa was one who for one year had visions and who for the next 50 had doubts – up until her death.”

Read full article from where I got this info: http://www.religionn...crisis-of-faith


Some more on the beliefs of Mother Teresa.....

What Mother Teresa wrote and lived is in fact official teaching of the Catholic Church. The

Catechism of the Catholic Church explains it in this way,

“In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they have attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.”[sup]31

[/sup]In total contrast, Scripture declares that all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags.[sup]32 [/sup]Working for one’s own salvation, and the salvation of others, is explicitly ruled out by the Word of God. Grace, in Scripture, is shown to be absolutely God’s gift, “

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”[sup]33

31 Catechism, Para. 1477. Emphasis not in original.

32 Isaiah 64:6, “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.”

33 Romans 4:4-5 [/sup]

[sup](While I don't agree with every thing by Richard Bennett, I do enjoy much of his writings.)

[/sup]Full article can be read at:

http://www.bereanbea...a_lost_soul.pdf

 

[Selene]

Not everyone is a theologian and not everyone is mother teresa - we all have our strengths. I think people get in trouble when they think they have to fill every role. For example, Mother Teresa didn't have a complicated theology - it was as basic as it gets, actually. In fact, she has been judged for not being a theologian - yet she served God everyday of her life in extraordinary ways

I admit that I don't think that I could have done the remarkable things that Mother Teresa did. She gave up everything, took a vow of poverty, and dedicated her life to helping the poor knowing that she would never eliminate poverty. She did not come to get rid of poverty because she knew that poverty would always exist. But she lived among the poor and served them.

There was priest in Hawaii who was recently canonized a saint. It was Father Damian. Father Damian was a priest who went to live with the lepers....people who were rejected by society because of their contagious disease. The lepers were abandoned and left alone away from the rest of society so that they would not spread the disease of leprosy. Father Damian went to live with the lepers knowing that he would contract the disease himself. But he went to live with them and served them just as Mother Teresa served the poor. These two were very much like Jesus. Jesus went to the poor and to the sick to serve them. He went to the sinners as well. They gave up everything to serve the poor and the needy. They followed Jesus who is the "Way" to salvation.

 

[Anastacia]

Speaking of Mother Teresa..... How many knew these things about Mother Teresa? Here are things written in her diaries.

“In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God and that he does not really exist.”

Il Messeggero, Rome’s popular daily newspaper, said: “The real Mother Teresa was one who for one year had visions and who for the next 50 had doubts – up until her death.”

Read full article from where I got this info: http://www.religionn...crisis-of-faith


Some more on the beliefs of Mother Teresa.....

What Mother Teresa wrote and lived is in fact official teaching of the Catholic Church. The

Catechism of the Catholic Church explains it in this way,

“In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they have attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.”[sup]31

[/sup]In total contrast, Scripture declares that all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags.[sup]32 [/sup]Working for one’s own salvation, and the salvation of others, is explicitly ruled out by the Word of God. Grace, in Scripture, is shown to be absolutely God’s gift, “

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”[sup]33

31 Catechism, Para. 1477. Emphasis not in original.

32 Isaiah 64:6, “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.”

33 Romans 4:4-5 [/sup]

[sup](While I don't agree with everything by Richard Bennett, I do enjoy much of his writings.)

[/sup]Full article can be read at:

http://www.bereanbea...a_lost_soul.pdf

Note: I was trying to correct a spelling error, but it somehow reposted my post here. It happened with another post of mine that I was trying to correct spelling.

 

[Selene]

I admit that I don't think that I could have done the remarkable things that Mother Teresa did. She gave up everything, took a vow of poverty, and dedicated her life to helping the poor knowing that she would never eliminate poverty. She did not come to get rid of poverty because she knew that poverty would always exist. But she lived among the poor and served them.

There was priest in Hawaii who was recently canonized a saint. It was Father Damian. Father Damian was a priest who went to live with the lepers....people who were rejected by society because of their contagious disease. The lepers were abandoned and left alone away from the rest of society so that they would not spread the disease of leprosy. Father Damian went to live with the lepers knowing that he would contract the disease himself. But he went to live with them and served them just as Mother Teresa served the poor. These two were very much like Jesus. Jesus went to the poor and to the sick to serve them. He went to the sinners as well. They gave up everything to serve the poor and the needy. They followed Jesus who is the "Way" to salvation.

By the way, Aspen, I forgot to add that there are many stories like these of Mother Teresa and Father Damain, but these two stands out the most because Hawaii is in the Pacific where I am also located, and Mother Teresa lived in our century. Their stories remind me of what Jesus said to the rich man:

Mark 10:21 And Jesus looking on him, loved him, and said to him: One thing is wanting unto thee: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.

It is remarkable how a nun like Mother Teresa would actually give up everything, take a vow of poverty and dedicate her life to serving the poor. It is also remarkable how Father Damian gave up everything including his life, lived among the lepers to serve them. Father Damian died of leprosy. These two definitely followed in Jesus' footsteps. They really gave up everything for Christ and served the poor and needy just like Christ. They truely followed Christ, who is the "Way" to salvation. Very few of us can follow Christ in this way. After all, who wants to join a leprosy colony and serve them? But Mother Teresa, Father Damian, and other people have shown that it is possible because with God all things are possible.

Mark 10:21-26 And Jesus looking on him, loved him, and said to him: One thing is wanting unto thee: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. Who being struck sad at that saying, went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. And Jesus looking round about, saith to his disciples: How hardly shall they that have riches, enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus again answering, saith to them: Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches, to enter into the kingdom of God? It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Who wondered the more, saying among themselves: Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking on them, saith: With men it is impossible; but not with God: for all things are possible with God.

Truely, those who walk with God can do all things possible. When one walks with God and does the impossible, we know that it is God's grace working in them to do these remarkable things for with God all things are possible.

 

[TexUs]

I admit that I don't think that I could have done the remarkable things that Mother Teresa did. She gave up everything, took a vow of poverty, and dedicated her life to helping the poor knowing that she would never eliminate poverty. She did not come to get rid of poverty because she knew that poverty would always exist. But she lived among the poor and served them.

It is remarkable how a nun like Mother Teresa would actually give up everything, take a vow of poverty and dedicate her life to serving the poor.

Works do not save you.


Edit- Of course I might be wasting my time... I'm arguing from a Biblical standpoint and we all know how high of regard that's held in compared to Catholic teachings.

 

[aspen]

By the way, Aspen, I forgot to add that there are many stories like these of Mother Teresa and Father Damain,

Another great story is about Jean Vanier who started L'Arche - a worldwide community for people with cognitively impairment. He wrote several books, my favorite is called "Becoming Human". It talks about living with and learning about love from the folks he serves. It is a powerful testimony to the power of love and God's Kingdom in the hearts of the meek. My parish has a large L'Arche community that enriches our Mass every Sunday at 11:00 AM - one of the members even conducts the choir from his pew - unbridled love, without worry of judgement.

 

[Selene]

Another great story is about Jean Vanier who started L'Arche - a worldwide community for people with cognitively impairment. He wrote several books, my favorite is called "Becoming Human". It talks about living with and learning about love from the folks he serves. It is a powerful testimony to the power of love and God's Kingdom in the hearts of the meek. My parish has a large L'Arche community that enriches our Mass every Sunday at 11:00 AM - one of the members even conducts the choir from his pew - unbridled love, without worry of judgement.

Yes, it is amazing. When a person truely becomes a son or daughter of God, the Holy Spirit moves them. A son and daughter of God always follow God's Will. And God's Will is not to do nothing....but to do great and remarkable things (John 14:12). Only by the grace of God can these great and remarkable things be done.

 

[aspen]

Works do not save you.


Edit- Of course I might be wasting my time... I'm arguing from a Biblical standpoint and we all know how high of regard that's held in compared to Catholic teachings.

You cannot separate faith from works - arguing about it is missing point and using Luther's mental gymnastics to reconcile faith alone with the Bible (works proceed from genuine faith) is akin to the chicken/egg argument.


In the case of Mother Teresa it doesn't matter anyway - she was practicing the sanctification of her heart, through Christ and she did so for her entire adult life. The work that Christ did in her heart is an inspiration to all Christians and a sign of God's presence in the Word for nonbelievers.

 

[Selene]

You cannot separate faith from works - arguing about it is missing point and using Luther's mental gymnastics to reconcile faith alone with the Bible (works proceed from genuine faith) is akin to the chicken/egg argument.


In the case of Mother Teresa it doesn't matter anyway - she was practicing the sanctification of her heart, through Christ and she did so for her entire adult life. The work that Christ did in her heart is an inspiration to all Christians and a sign of God's presence in the Word for nonbelievers.

I agree. The Bible did say that "faith" and "works" go together.

James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says hehas faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "God in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[TexUs]

You cannot separate faith from works

That's right. So let's examine both. She has the works thing checked off, does she have the faith thing? Are these statements that of a "Christ alone" Christian? Fact of the matter is you ignore the faith part and say the works justify here, it's not true.


[quote']“In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God and that he does not really exist.”[/quote]

“We never try to convert those who receive to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God’s presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men — simply better — we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life — his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation.”

I explained that I wanted to give them sisters, but the trouble was that, without a priest, without Jesus going with them, our sisters couldn't go anywhere

"I love all religions. ... If people become better Hindus, better Muslims, better Buddhists by our acts of love, then there is something else growing there."

When the priest is there, then can we have our altar and our tabernacle and our Jesus. Only the priest put Jesus there for us. ... Jesus wants to go there, but we cannot bring him unless you first give him to us. This is why I love priests so much. We could never be what we are and do the things we do without you priests who first bring Jesus to us.

"These people are waiting to die. What are you telling them to prepare them for death and eternity? She replied candidly, 'We tell them to pray to their Bhagwan, to their gods.'"

Regenerate believer? I think not. Works. Don't. Save.
I wholly expect you Catholics that I'm sure have a plan to dig her up and bow down to her to ignore such statements but for the rest of us: we can make up our own minds.

 

[aspen]

That's right. So let's examine both. She has the works thing checked off, does she have the faith thing? Are these statements that of a "Christ alone" Christian? Fact of the matter is you ignore the faith part and say the works justify here, it's not true.

I trust people who doubt their faith and remain obedient. Everyone doubts their faith, most are too proud to admit it - even in their personal, private diaries. St. Therese of Lisieux was recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church and she is famous for her doubts. We are more than our minds! Our souls are made up of mind, heart, and action - sometimes our minds let us down - often God leads us into places of doubt so we learn to lean on Him more. Doubt is a part of souls that have been in relationship with Christ for a long time.

During times of doubt, we are called to love God with our hearts and behavior - soon our minds will follow.

Regenerate believer? I think not. Works. Don't. Save.
I wholly expect you Catholics that I'm sure have a plan to dig her up and bow down to her to ignore such statements but for the rest of us: we can make up our own minds.

I am resting in the fact that God is responsible for judging souls and not you.

Nice one. Glad to see you are still in the mocking and scoffing business. Too bad we couldn't have locked this kind of behavior, it would have saved the Catholic thread.

 

[TexUs]

I trust people who doubt their faith and remain obedient. Everyone doubts their faith

Maybe you didn't read the quotes I posted but they are not of someone doubting their faith, they are absolute statements made in address to the PUBLIC.

St. Therese of Lisieux was recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church and she is famous for her doubts.

So the Catholic Church can now determine salvation status, it's not God? Unbelievable.

I am resting in the fact that God is responsible for judging souls and not you.

Absolutely he is, and we could all be wrong, but for people with ears that can hear, her belief in Christ is in question.

 

[aspen]

[font="tahoma][/size][/font][/font]
[font="Arial"]Maybe you didn't read the quotes I posted but they are not of someone doubting their faith, they are absolute statements made in address to the PUBLIC.[/font]


So the Catholic Church can now determine salvation status, it's not God? Unbelievable.


Absolutely he is, and we could all be wrong, but for people with ears that can hear, her belief in Christ is in question.

If you want me to comment on the quotes, I will need a source.

Actually, St. Therese was not only called a saint, but a Doctor of the Church.

TexUS - you are never wrong - com'mon!

 

[Anastacia]

If you want me to comment on the quotes, I will need a source.

Actually, St. Therese was not only called a saint, but a Doctor of the Church.

TexUS - you are never wrong - com'mon!

Aspen, You want to talk about this false teaching of the Catholic church? Did you read what I posted about what your Catechism says?---

Everyone reading this post, read here for yourself what the Catholic church teaches.


The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains it in this way,

“In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they have attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.”



Aspen, did you read the article that I gave the link to....about Mother Tereasa? I really would like to discuss it with you. Maybe we can make a new thread about her? Please read the whole article. Everyone should read it. Really insightful reading!



http://www.bereanbea...a_lost_soul.pdf

 

[TexUs]

If you want me to comment on the quotes, I will need a source.

www.google.com
Copy and paste each one. That's all I did. I didn't make it up
Only a Catholic would make doctrine up

Actually, St. Therese was not only called a saint, but a Doctor of the Church.

You missed my point. I don't care what the hell the RCC called him. It doesn't establish his salvation.