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Featured Biblical Evidence God Doesn't Exist: using logic rather than belief.

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by shnarkle, Jul 30, 2019.

  1. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Just what do the biblical authors mean by "God" anyways? We all know that all gods are imaginary, right? So what makes the biblical god any different than, oh let's say the 330 million deities that populate the Hindu pantheon of gods?

    Well for starters, the biblical authors distinguish their "God" from the rest by pointing out that if you're imagining anything about "God", you're not imagining God at all. You're just looking at the product of your own imagination. They even have a word for it. They call it idolatry.

    An idol is any object that is viewed as a god itself. In other words, the biblical authors don't believe in objectifying "God" at all. They can imagine all sorts of gods just like the next guy, and they can admit that these gods are all imaginary. In fact, they would be the first to point out that they aren't gods at all. They're simply imaginary ideas. That's not what they mean by "God", and whatever meanings or definitions they do come up with aren't God either. They're just meanings and definitions for the word "God", which they will be the first to admit is simply a symbol for its meaning. Again, words and meanings are not gods; they're words with associated meanings.

    Paul also points out that Christ isn't God when he refers to him as "the image of the invisible God"(Col.1:15). The word he uses for "image" is the Greek "eikon" which is where we get words like 'icon';"iconography"; "iconoclastic" etc. An icon should not be confused with an idol. As noted previously, an idol is worshipped as god, but an icon is a representation of God, and representations are not gods themselves.

    Some would hasten to note that these two terms are synonymous, but this is only in relation to "things", and the biblical authors don't include God as any thing.

    Given that the word "God" is essentially undefinable, unimaginable, and unknowable, thats what Jesus represents. He is an immanent representation of transcendence.

    The biblical authors have a name for their "God" which they call "YHVH" which means "I will be", or "I will be what I will be", and what will be doesn't exist. Potentiality is not actuality.

    They use words like "incomparable" or "there is none beside me". In other words, there is no referent for transcendence. There is no essential difference between the word "God" and nothing. There is no referent for God other than the word "God" itself.

    The New Testament's gospel of John points out essentially the same thing. The introduction doesn't begin with "in the beginning was God". Why? Because God doesn't exist. He begins with "in the beginning was the word". That's all there is to begin with.

    He then continues by pointing out that everything that exists is created(vs. 3), and at no time does he or anyone else ever suggest that God is created. Therefore, for those who are lacking even rudimentary reading comprehension skills, it logically follows that God doesn't exist. This is especially so given that the biblical authors view the objective world as the created world. So by definition, God can't objectively exist in the created world.

    Paul reaffirms this in his letter to the Corinthians when he points out that God is the origin (not to be confused or conflated with "beginning") of all that exists while Christ is the means by which everything exists (1 Corinthians 8:6).

    For those who insist in asking the question, "Who created God?, Paul's argument refutes that by pointing out that the origin of existence cannot logically exist without creating an infinite regression. So he has simultaneously admitted that God doesn't exist and denied the need for an infinte regression.
     
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  2. Miss Hepburn

    Miss Hepburn Well-Known Member

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    So sorry I didn't get past the first sentences ....We all know all gods are imaginary, right?
    He is for some, granted...a blind hope, a wish, a belief in words written a millenia ago, cuz of
    some moments of upliftment you feel at church or reading pretty words.
    But for us that have had our socks knocked off by one Divine experience after another for decades...God is more real
    than anything I see with my eyes open, Mr. Shnarkle....now THAT ...what I see around me ...that is imaginary!
    Made of dreamstuff. ;)
     
  3. Pearl

    Pearl Well-Known Member

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    God is definitely real, I have known him for over forty years. And anybody that thinks he isn't real has no place on a Cristian forum. You are only here to disrupt.
     
  4. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    I'm not denying the existence of reality, nor the reality of God. If you had bothered to read the rest of the post, you might have been able to see that.

    I have not assumed that the kingdom is discerned through observation either which is yet another proof from the bible that God as well as the kingdom can't objectively exist.
     
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  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Um . . . you need to read a little further . . . and the Word was God.

    So it turns out that God does in fact exist.

    Much love!
     
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  6. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you are reading this right, if you're coming up with Paul saying Jesus is not God.

    Much love!
     
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  7. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Aside from your pointless and baseless accusations, you make a good point, and one which I hadn't considered before posting this; which is the difference between "real and imaginary" and the difference between imaginary and what exists. I was referring to the latter rather than the former. So your point is well taken, however, the reality of the whole is not necessarily the whole of reality. In other words, existence isn't as comprehensive as reality, and just because reality includes God, doesn't mean that God exists, especially in the created world.
     
  8. Pearl

    Pearl Well-Known Member

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    I believe that God exists and that he created all things and sent Jesus to die for the sin of mankind.
     
  9. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    You're reading something into the text that simply isn't there. The subject is "the word", and it is the word itself would exist if it were any thing, but John is careful to point out in the next verse that "all things are created..." Did you catch that?

    Therefore, neither "the word" or "God" are things. They aren't anything. What other option is there? What do most people contrast "something' with? Don't we look at our options between "something" and "nothing"?

    Again, I would only suggest looking at what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:6 to see the distinction he makes between God and Christ. God is the origin, the source, of all that exists while Christ is the means of all that exists. Nothing exists without first begin brought into existence. We are all brought into Christ, and Christ points out that "apart from me you can do nothing".

    To conflate the origin with the means is to contradict oneself. I'm not doing that.
     
  10. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Why? What was it about Paul's citation that indicated to you that an icon of God is God? Are you Catholic? If so, I can see why you might say that. Catholicism takes a bad rap for all their iconography, especially in light of what Paul points out in the passage I cited. We don't get to play fast and loose with Paul's writings and then give Catholics a hard time for their iconography as well. We are all created in the "image" of God. Does that mean we're all God as well? Logic; try it sometime.
     
  11. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    The topic isn't really addressing one's beliefs, but the logical implications of the clear statements made in the bible.
     
  12. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Good for you. Anyone who wants to tie themselves up in this kind of pretzel logic, well, I'm not going to stand in your way.

    Why are you on a Christian Board to prove there is no God?
     
  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    OK.

    Somewhere else.
     
  14. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    @shnarkle

    Since you insist on logic, you have started at the wrong place to really discuss what it is that we do believe and why. First a person must believe in God and then if he wishes to proceed further, he certainly may.

    "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:5
     
  15. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I myself was just about to quote that same verse in Hebrews...
     
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  16. Triumph1300

    Triumph1300 Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree.
     
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  17. Pearl

    Pearl Well-Known Member

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    So the bible - old and new testaments - are all about God.
     
  18. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    I'm on a Christian debate site to engage in debate. Why are you here, if you're not interested in engaging in debate? Peter suggests that one have a defense for their faith, I presumed that Christians on a debate site would surely be able to defend their faith in that type of forum. This is what I'm doing.
     
  19. Pearl

    Pearl Well-Known Member

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    Why do we even need to defend our faith? Tie yourself in knots if you want to but I will not.
     
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  20. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    If you look at the title, it really doesn't have anything to do with what you believe or why. It is referring to a logical argument using biblical passages to point out that the authors go to great lengths to point out that God is the origin and source of existence. The fact that this bothers you so much you can't even begin to look at what I've posted without high jacking the thread to your beliefs is telling.


    There is all the difference in the world between believing that you may see, and believing what you see. To see that God is the origin is not to see God, but "the word".


    And it is only those who seek the truth who can find it. It is only those who have the faith of Christ that can please God. Your faith is useless if it isn't Christ's
     
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