Blame God?

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skypair

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Our fellowship is studying Job. Job sinned against God when he blamed God for creating him (Job 3) and causing his afflictions. He became bitter with God breaking their relationship such that Job knew that, when he died, he would go to hell (Job 7:20-21). We all know that it was Satan responsible for his afflictions, right?

So what do we to make of this blaming of God? Exchanging good for evil and evil for good, right? But isn't that just what Calvinists do when they blame God for choosing some to reprobation? Isn't that the way He made them and not their own fault (cf, Ro 9:20)?

And how will anyone who assigns evil to God ever have a relationship with Him? Do you think that they please God in doing so? Isn't that taking away from His glory rather than giving Him glory?

skypair
 
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Helen

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I don't believe he blamed God...but what he did do was to think that all that he did.."made him righteous"...and I believe that is what God is addressing throughout all the book of Job.
God broke his belief that all his sacrificing etc made him righteous.

We know that God drew Satan's attention to Job..."Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

God commended him highly...but as I read the book I find.. so did Job!
I believe that is what God was dealing with..Job's self-righteous attitude about himself .
( "Though He slay me yet will I trust him..."...sound very good, he should have stopped there.....but the verse goes on- "Yet will I maintain my own ways!"
hmmm
I see no sin in him but pride..

Just my two cents...
 

junobet

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I don't believe he blamed God...but what he did do was to think that all that he did.."made him righteous"...and I believe that is what God is addressing throughout all the book of Job.
God broke his belief that all his sacrificing etc made him righteous.

We know that God drew Satan's attention to Job..."Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

God commended him highly...but as I read the book I find.. so did Job!
I believe that is what God was dealing with..Job's self-righteous attitude about himself .
( "Though He slay me yet will I trust him..."...sound very good, he should have stopped there.....but the verse goes on- "Yet will I maintain my own ways!"
hmmm
I see no sin in him but pride..

Just my two cents...
Actually the Book of Job makes it very clear that Job was an utterly good man. That’s the entire point: it’s a shift from previous wisdom literature that had it that you must have done something bad, when you are struck by calamity and illness. Instead the Book of Job declares that calamity can strike people with no fault of their own. Much more humane and in accordance with Matthew 5:45b:

“He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
 

VictoryinJesus

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Our fellowship is studying Job. Job sinned against God when he blamed God for creating him (Job 3) and causing his afflictions. He became bitter with God breaking their relationship such that Job knew that, when he died, he would go to hell (Job 7:20-21). We all know that it was Satan responsible for his afflictions, right?

So what do we to make of this blaming of God? Exchanging good for evil and evil for good, right? But isn't that just what Calvinists do when they blame God for choosing some to reprobation? Isn't that the way He made them and not their own fault (cf, Ro 9:20)?

And how will anyone who assigns evil to God ever have a relationship with Him? Do you think that they please God in doing so? Isn't that taking away from His glory rather than giving Him glory?

skypair

Was what happened to Job good or evil?
 

FHII

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God commended him highly...but as I read the book I find.. so did Job!
I believe that is what God was dealing with..Job's self-righteous attitude about himself .
( "Though He slay me yet will I trust him..."...sound very good, he should have stopped there.....but the verse goes on- "Yet will I maintain my own ways!"
hmmm
I see no sin in him but pride..


I never saw what Job said in that way.

teeth, and put my life in mine hand? [15] Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. [16] He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.

I've always saw it as him continuing to trust God and not charge God foolishly.

He did a lot of complaining but he refused to curse God or consider the consul of his "friends".
 

aspen

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Complaining isnt attractive, but it is not evil.

I think the OP paints a petty version of God - as if He is just waiting to turn us over to the devil and damn us.....He is not a grammar nazi or a militant librarian or a nun armed with a ruler
 
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Helen

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Complaining isnt attractive, but it is not evil.

I think the OP paints a petty version of God - as if He is just waiting to turn us over to the devil and damn us.....He is not a grammar nazi or a militant librarian or a nun armed with a ruler

Agree , I believe as God first put Job up to be tested...He was pleased with Job, but He wanted to do some polishing on Job's character.

But I have always been sorry for the wife..she may have said- " Curse God and die"..but she paid for it in full ...she had to have a dozen more kids for Job, poor thing!! lol
 

Miss Hepburn

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I don't care about anything or anybody or what was written ..
I would never blame God for anything 'bad', period.
I trust in Him totally.
If things happen here on earth that are nuts...it is not because of Him.
So there. No debate of any kind from me. That is that.
My position.
 
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aspen

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People have a history of framing God
 

Windmillcharge

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Our fellowship is studying Job. Job sinned against God when he blamed God for creating him (Job 3) and causing his afflictions. He became bitter with God breaking their relationship such that Job knew that, when he died, he would go to hell (Job 7:20-21). We all know that it was Satan responsible for his afflictions, right?

So what do we to make of this blaming of God? Exchanging good for evil and evil for good, right? But isn't that just what Calvinists do when they blame God for choosing some to reprobation? Isn't that the way He made them and not their own fault (cf, Ro 9:20)?

And how will anyone who assigns evil to God ever have a relationship with Him? Do you think that they please God in doing so? Isn't that taking away from His glory rather than giving Him glory?

skypair

There is a horrible aflection going roiund Christianity it is the, ' I'm perfectly alright bright smile/grin and don't mention my paid/problems!'

Job shows us that we can complain, moan, whine even to God about our problems, that we can share our problems with Christian friends and we can do this with out sinning.

Be honest when problens strike, aren't you secretly screaming, " Why?" to God.


Minor point no one is innocent, God is not at fault just because he made people. In saying that you are doing what Job never did.
 

OzSpen

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Was what happened to Job good or evil?

Job thought it was a great benefit to him. This is how he put it in Job 42:

Then Job replied to the Lord:

2 ‘I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, “Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?”
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 ‘You said, “Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.”
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes’....

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before....

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys (Job 42:1-6, 10, 12 NIV).​

So for Job to conclude that he knew the Lord can do all things and that no purpose of the Lord can be thwarted and he needed to despise himself and repent in dust and ashes - surely that was a good experience through severe trials.

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Job's experience is similar to that taught by James:

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything (James 1:2-4 NIV).​

I know from personal experience but it doesn't feel like "pure joy" when going through "triels of many kinds". I preached on it in, Turning trash into treasure (James 1:2-4).

Oz


 

amadeus

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I never saw what Job said in that way.

teeth, and put my life in mine hand? [15] Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. [16] He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.

I've always saw it as him continuing to trust God and not charge God foolishly.

He did a lot of complaining but he refused to curse God or consider the consul of his "friends".
To me the part I have underlined and emboldened is where Job really was missing something important. Even when done with the best of intentions, walking in our own way always gets us into trouble with God. This where every one of us has been or is too much of the time. God was helping Job to improve on this and seemingly by the end of the book he has...

"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:5-6
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Job thought it was a great benefit to him. This is how he put it in Job 42:

Then Job replied to the Lord:

2 ‘I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, “Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?”
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 ‘You said, “Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.”
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes’....

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before....

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys (Job 42:1-6, 10, 12 NIV).​

So for Job to conclude that he knew the Lord can do all things and that no purpose of the Lord can be thwarted and he needed to despise himself and repent in dust and ashes - surely that was a good experience through severe trials.
Job's experience is similar to that taught by James:

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything (James 1:2-4 NIV).​

I know from personal experience but it doesn't feel like "pure joy" when going through "triels of many kinds". I preached on it in, Turning trash into treasure (James 1:2-4).

Oz



Agree. No one prays "Lord, let me suffer loss. Give me an illness. I plead with you, give me a struggle." We would never pray for it before going into it. But when a new perspective on life comes, we thank and praise God for that new perspective.

"Turning trash into treasure." God is masterful at it! Psalm 113:7-8
[7] He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill; [8] That he may set him with princes, even with the princes of his people.

We know what dung is. Everything the world says brings furfill and contentment. It is a matter of perspective and Job was blessed with a new one:

Job 42:3-6
[3] Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. [4] Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. [5] I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. [6] Wherefore I abhor myself , and repent in dust and ashes.


Job 42:12-15
12] So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. [13] He had also seven sons and three daughters. [14] And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Keren-happuch. [15] And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.

The questions is: what holds a place over God in a persons heart?

Mark 10:29-30
[29] And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, [30] But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

The obstacle of Job:

Job 42:11
[11] Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

But they "did eat bread" and "comforted".

Romans 8:28
[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Which means "evil" has lost its power when every single thing works together for "good."

Romans 8:18-20
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
 

skypair

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I don't believe he blamed God...but what he did do was to think that all that he did.."made him righteous"...and I believe that is what God is addressing throughout all the book of Job.
God broke his belief that all his sacrificing etc made him righteous.
I think many people believe this but they don't take into account what God said about Job. 1) Job only sacrificed for his children. He, himself was counted righteous according to God (in addition to "perfect and upright," 1:8, God said, "In all of this [catastrophe], Job did not sin." 1:22) Actually, it was only after he was afflicted in his flesh that he blamed God that he was ever born and became bitter in his soul [broken relationship with God] .. which is what he attributes his sin to in 7:11

I believe that is what God was dealing with..Job's self-righteous attitude about himself .
Yes, most people see it that way b/c he does not know of any reason why God would "punish" him .. and God wasn't. Have you ever been in this situation yourself, grace? I have. I was saved and right where I thought God was using me and I was growing exponentially in the Lord. But then He seemed to take it all away. Obviously, it appeared to me that God was to blame and I became bitter .. my relationship to Him was strained but imagine if you didn't have God's assurance that you weren't saved.

And isn't it the unpardonable sin to blame God as if He causes evil? I think Job recognized this.

skypair
 

skypair

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I think the OP paints a petty version of God - as if He is just waiting to turn us over to the devil and damn us.
Wow! Really? So you basically don't believe that God did what the Bible says He did? And no, there comes a time in every person's life when they sin and need to be reconciled back to God through His salvation. You will notice that in Job 33, God sends him a messenger with the gospel of salvation saying that, "If anyone [prays], 'I have sinned and perverted that which is right and it profited me not,' God will keep his soul from going into the pit…"

Consider this, aspen: Job was as we were as children. We, most of us, went to church, acknowledged God, worshiped and thanked Him and we unaware of any sin we might have committed against Him. But then comes so catastrophe in our lives (or maybe even some disappointment) and we, thinking God could have kept this away from us, begin to lose our trust in Him and, before you know it, we also sin against Him. NOW we need salvation. Now church becomes our "messenger" to lead us back into relationship with God again. :)

I think you might like to consider how you may have 'perverted that which was right,' aspen.

skypair
 

skypair

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So for Job to conclude that he knew the Lord can do all things and that no purpose of the Lord can be thwarted and he needed to despise himself and repent in dust and ashes - surely that was a good experience through severe trials.
Exactly! You see, Job had just been a "friend" of God up until this point (Job 42:6). But now we see him repent and God gives him a "new life" (42:10) like He does us when we repent in the name of Jesus Christ for salvation. Prior to this, Job was only what I call "safe." He acknowledged God, worshiped and thanked Him and God put a hedge around his life. These are God's and our relationship under the "everlasting gospel" that does not save BUT we remain "just" on account of our innocence (children and Cornelius are other examples of this before they are/were saved). If such die, they go to heaven and will be resurrected back to the earth bodily to believe on Christ in His kingdom and receive eternal life, the Holy Ghost, etc. just like us.

skypair
 

skypair

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Which means "evil" has lost its power when every single thing works together for "good."
I love that you said this. I have been through a couple of these things that Job was — losing by job twice and therefore my substance .. and at another time losing my health. I, though saved, did blame God and get bitter. I know exactly what is being talked about in Job.

But glory to God, all things did work together for good .. God did restore me to Himself .. I got my health and my career back and I can look back and see how God worked this to His glory as well as to give me "life and life more abundantly," Jn 10:10.

Yes, we absolutely can count on God working everything for good. :)

skypair