Blood does not save, love does.

[romans7]

Don't want to upset anyone, but if you follow things through, this has to be the conclusion. All things are done in order to bring people to "participation in the divine nature". The divine nature is LOVE. God is LOVE. Anything that preceeds this "result" is only a "tool" to enable this result. That one of (the main "tool") the "tools" is the very nature of "suffering God" as exhibited in the body of Christ is obvious, along with the other things that are said to "save" - faith, hope etc ("we are saved by hope"). To claim that the blood of Christ was "special" is wrong other than it may have been genetically different. The blood denotes the suffering and death of the son, and by logical extension, the effect on the Father. What it all means is that God himself, through his son, has demonstrated, revealed, his very nature as one who has forgiven and forgives. The cross was his forgiveness to the world, just as it was his love to the world. Christ on the cross may also be said to have wresled, encountered, resisted, opposed, fought and destroyed in his flesh (body) sins attempts to conquer his righteousness, through the whole gambit of sinful possibilities. He conquered, and so the legal aspects of the law of sin and death were met. Death could not hold him, his righteousness survived.

If people start to use scriptures to object to this position, they must realise that this position has been derived from those very scriptures, and in any case I would probably not be able to defend against some scripture being used literally. Also I have no desire to argue the point, but am willing to look at what may be presented. Although I have padded this out, the main issue is obviously that Christ's blood should not be looked to as the magic ingredient of salvation, just as other things may also be held high in this regard, they are not the answer. It is man answering and responding to the love of God that brings salvation through the means that Christ is seen to have provided.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Why is there no scripture posted in the OP?

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." (Mat 22:29)

Here are some thoughts concerning what appears to be another variant of the Scripture-bare and false grace doctrine (aka the "gospel of greasy grace") evinced in the OP. Please feel free to contribute your own Scripturally-based thoughts.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;" (Matt. 10:16, 17).

Now, first of all, it says 'beware of men;' that's the first thing you need to recognize. God wants you to be aware of his Spirit and follow his word. You've got to realize that it is men who will deceive you. That's why it is so important for me to show you the word of God. I should come with references -- not references from people, but references from the word of God.

Continuing with Matthew 10:18 - "And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles."

Now I must tell you, saints of God, there is a reason why our persecution begins in this succession, because it takes a saint to know a saint. That's why the greatest danger that is coming upon the church is going to come from within the church. That's why I am appalled at the number of people that are literally violent over their particular doctrines, their particular areas of belief, rather than embracing what the word clearly says and staying with what the simple truth of the gospel is. Instead, they have these particular things that they are just vehemently attached to. And I want to tell you something, saints of God, one of those doctrines is that grace covers sin.

How many here were taught in church, from the pulpit, that grace covers sin? Can I tell you something? There is no scripture in the Bible that tells us that grace covers sin; in fact, it's an abominable thought. Grace does not cover sin -- BLOOD DOES. When you have sinned, you have fallen from grace. Now you don't need grace any more -- you need blood, ok? Once you've sinned, you have already stepped outside of grace. Grace was for BEFORE you sinned, so that you would have the strength to endure and overcome that which would have taken you INTO sin. Grace is the power of God to make up for what you lack. So if you normally sin in a certain area, and you call upon the grace of God, he supplies strength where you are weak, and you overcome, amen?

Hebrews 4:16 - "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

Now when you go ahead and vacate the grace of God and go ahead and sin, you don't need grace any more, now you need blood. Thank you, Jesus, for the blood of the Lamb, but saints of God, we've got to stop making mistakes and begin to walk upright before our God, amen? We can't live that way and trample on the grace of Almighty God.

Some of you have been taught that grace began as a 'dispensation,' like God began to become a graceful God about 2000 years ago.

Hebrews 13:8, 9 - "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers [motley; various in character] and strange doctrines..."

The word "grace" means "unmerited favor." Now, exactly what did Adam do to deserve the rulership in the garden? Sounds like "unmerited favor" to me. What did Lucifer do to deserve his tabrets to be built right into his body from the day he was created? Sounds like "grace" to me. Saints of God, we need to recognize that grace has been around since the beginning. God has always been a God of grace; he didn't just think up the idea 2000 years ago. He always wants to supply strength where there is weakness, amen? Saints of God, we cannot just continue to walk any ole way we want and just claim grace, because grace is for BEFORE you sin, and not after.

In my post above, you can substitute the word "love" for the word "grace."

 

[romans7]

Here is a scripture - Why is it you are unable to hear my words.

 

[Angelina]

You are suggesting that Christ's blood does not save us but rather God's love has saved us. God's love toward us is in the work of the cross through his son. The blood of Jesus is the very thing that cleanses us from sin. Without it...we are still in our sins. The expression of God's love for us is in the shedding of Christ's blood on our behalf. The bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Romans 3:23

Scripture tells us that the law was our guardian until Christ came when we could then be justified by faith.

Galations 3
22 But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin’s power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. 24 The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. 25 But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Scripture also tells us that all who believe in Jesus by faith are justified by his grace through the redemption [the action of saving or being saved from sin] which is in Christ. God presented him as a propitiation [an action to gain favor; make up for a wrong done] through faith in his blood

Romans 3
24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. 26 God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.

The bible teaches us that God demonstrates his love for us through Christ death while we were still sinners and those who believe are also declared righteous by his blood and saved from wrath.

Romans 5
6 For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die. 8 But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us! 9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, then how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life! 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have now received this reconciliation through Him.

Revelation 1:4,5 teaches us that Christ has set us free from our sins by his blood...
4 John: To the seven churches in Asia.
Grace and peace to you from the One who is, who was, and who is coming; from the seven spirits before His throne; 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has set us free from our sins by His blood, 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—the glory and dominion are His forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 12 tells us that those who overcame the enemy, conquered him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony...
11.They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not love their lives in the face of death.


shalom!!!

 

[Forsakenone]

Here is a scripture - Why is it you are unable to hear my words.

I heard that, and I agree it is hope that saves,

 

[walls of jericho941]

If you dont think blood shed is important then you actually do not know much about the laws found in the old testament concerning sin offerings, peace offerings, purification(ritual purification), etc. Bloodshed must occur for the attonment of sin, and this is how Jesus fufilled the law. By shedding His blood. If salvation is just because we responded to Gods love, then Jesus died in vain.
Hebrews 1:3
I could go thru and list a bunch of scriptures concerning the laws and what required blood to be sprinkled, or to be purified by fire, or by water and fire, or blood and water(Jesus refrence) but instead I am only going to list one scripture as it should suffice to gain a foundation to build on.
Leviticus 17:11... for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an attonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes attonment.
Jesus' life had no sin, thus He was the spotless Lamb of God. Jesus being crucified and shedding His blood is the only reason we can respond to Gods love.

 

[Forsakenone]

If you dont think blood shed is important then you actually do not know much about the laws found in the old testament concerning sin offerings, peace offerings, purification(ritual purification), etc. Bloodshed must occur for the attonment of sin, and this is how Jesus fufilled the law. By shedding His blood. If salvation is just because we responded to Gods love, then Jesus died in vain.
Hebrews 1:3
I could go thru and list a bunch of scriptures concerning the laws and what required blood to be sprinkled, or to be purified by fire, or by water and fire, or blood and water(Jesus refrence) but instead I am only going to list one scripture as it should suffice to gain a foundation to build on.
Leviticus 17:11... for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an attonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes attonment.
Jesus' life had no sin, thus He was the spotless Lamb of God. Jesus being crucified and shedding His blood is the only reason we can respond to Gods love.

Rev 13:8 "...whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

If all men have sinned then why don't you believe him?
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? John 8:46

Because his Father was the eternal God?

13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true:

17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
John 8

8.42.43

 

[Dani]

Hi Romans7,

I hear you that it is our actions and our love for both God and our fellow "man" that saves us. With love also comes forgiveness, understanding, acceptance, non-judgment, giving people the benefit of the doubt, being a listening ear, etc.

We either push people away or become true friends to them. What would God choose for us?

Love always wins.

 

[walls of jericho941]

Rev 13:8 "...whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

If all men have sinned then why don't you believe him?
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? John 8:46

Because his Father was the eternal God?

13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true:

17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.John 8

8.42.43

What is your point? I dont understand what you are getting at here,
The bible says salvation is by grace thru faith. The bible says ours righteousness is as filthy rags. Nothing we do is good enough to please God or earn salvation. Salvation is of the Lord.

 

[Forsakenone]

What is your point?

That the Bible is the most read and least examine book in history.

The bible says salvation is by grace thru faith.

Exactly, if faith without works is dead as written in James 2:20, then as written in Romans 11:6; And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So it is written that ye are saved by hope. If it is by your faith, since not all men have faith then how can it be a gift of God.

As written in James 2:17; Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. So if not of hope but of faith, then as written in Phil 2:12, 12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

 

[Angelina]

Hi Romans7,

I hear you that it is our actions and our love for both God and our fellow "man" that saves us. With love also comes forgiveness, understanding, acceptance, non-judgment, giving people the benefit of the doubt, being a listening ear, etc.

We either push people away or become true friends to them. What would God choose for us?

Love always wins.

Hi Dani,
All the above mentioned is the outworking of our faith in Jesus but it is not what saves us. What saves us is Christ on the cross. If we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead - we shall be saved. Romans 10:9-10.

Salvation is by faith in the one who saved us. The guarantee of that salvation is the indwelling Holy Spirit.
John 16:5-11, Galatians 4:6, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:20, 21, 22,

Jesus has made the door available into the eternal kingdom through faith in him. John 17:3, Romans 5:17, Romans 5:23, Titus 3:7, 1 John 5: 11-12, 1 John 5:20

Blessings!!!

-----------------------------------------------------
Forsakenone Greetings,

We are not saved by hope, We are saved by faith.

Hebrews 11
11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Shalom!

 

[walls of jericho941]

The only scripture I can find that says we are saved by hope is Romans 8:24, however I looked that word up in the greek, in strongs its number 1680, if you care to double check, and what do you know it can also be translated as the word "faith" so we are not saved by hope.

What I find so awesome about this faith, is it too is a gift.

Ephesians 2:8-9 for it is by grace that you have been saved, thru faith- and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- and not by works so that no one can boast.

 

[Dan57]

"All things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22) Since without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sin, I'd disagree with the OP,.. Blood in fact, does save... If Christ failed to atone for our sins, we would all die in sin, because "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6;23).

 

[Forsakenone]

The only scripture I can find that says we are saved by hope is Romans 8:24, however I looked that word up in the greek, in strongs its number 1680, if you care to double check, and what do you know it can also be translated as the word "faith" so we are not saved by hope.

What I find so awesome about this faith, is it too is a gift.

Ephesians 2:8-9 for it is by grace that you have been saved, thru faith- and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- and not by works so that no one can boast.

But the eyes of the wicked shall fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope shall be as the giving up of the ghost. Job 11:20

O, one must have hope before they can have faith, for it is the gift of grace that gives us faith in our hope.

 

[Dani]

Hi Dani,
All the above mentioned is the outworking of our faith in Jesus but it is not what saves us. What saves us is Christ on the cross. If we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead - we shall be saved. Romans 10:9-10.

Salvation is by faith in the one who saved us. The guarantee of that salvation is the indwelling Holy Spirit.
John 16:5-11, Galatians 4:6, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:20, 21, 22,

Jesus has made the door available into the eternal kingdom through faith in him. John 17:3, Romans 5:17, Romans 5:23, Titus 3:7, 1 John 5: 11-12, 1 John 5:20

Blessings!!!

Hi Angeline thanks, sorry for my late reply.
I agree that the blood of Christ saves us and also faith. But the greatest thing is love (1Cor 13:13), and God is love, that's all I was saying Blessings.

 

[walls of jericho941]

But the eyes of the wicked shall fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope shall be as the giving up of the ghost. Job 11:20

O, one must have hope before they can have faith, for it is the gift of grace that gives us faith in our hope.

Thats true, but there are no scriptures telling us to be saved we must hope on the Lord. There are some that say believe on the Lord.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

What I find so awesome about this faith, is it too is a gift.

Ephesians 2:8-9 for it is by grace that you have been saved, thru faith- and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- and not by works so that no one can boast.

Actually, grace is a gift (of God), and faith is a fruit (of the saved). Until one makes a decision to be faith-full, he is not yet even born again at that point.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. The "it" in this verse refers to grace.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal. 5:22

Grace is God's end of the deal; faith is our end of the deal.

Here's the passage for context.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Forsakenone]

The only scripture I can find that says we are saved by hope is Romans 8:24, however I looked that word up in the greek, in strongs its number 1680, if you care to double check, and what do you know it can also be translated as the word "faith" so we are not saved by hope.

What I find so awesome about this faith, is it too is a gift.

Ephesians 2:8-9 for it is by grace that you have been saved, thru faith- and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- and not by works so that no one can boast.

So you are not saved by hope? Since hope is necessary in order to believe, for what hope hath a man in that which that which he doesn't believe, and what belief does a man hath in which he has not hope in?

Then how do you say that faith is a gift of the Spirit and then deny that 'Faith' is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen?

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:16-17

So the reason that 'faith' is a gift, is because it is revealed from faith, which is why the faith that saves us is not of our faith but by His faith. Thus it can not be of man's works, for salvation is not a work of the law but a gift of His grace.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 Tim 2:3-5

Everyone by nature are believers. [If you disagree, please tell me why you believe that it is incorrect.]

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. Mark 9:23
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Mark 9:24

So in such, you can discern between the those who believe and those who have faith.

1. They will tell you that belief and faith are the same thing.
2. They will tell you that all things are possible with God.

In Deut 32:20 it is written that the LORD told Moses, "I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith."

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2 Tim 3:7-9

And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 2 Thess 3:2

Hope is the term given for what is called the "measure of faith' given to all men. In such, hope is not faith, but it does hold a measurable part of faith since faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence those things unseen.

So, if one doesn't boast in the faith that that God hath given unto them by His grace, then all one can do is let them work out their own salvation with fear and trembling as written in Phil 2:12

 

[Madad21]

Just a quick note about hope

Hope is something we carry not something we aspire for.

We dont hope as in "I hope it doesn't rain today" or "I hope we win the cricket"

Our Hope is an assurance its what we contain in our very being. We have hope, we are not hoping.

 

[IanLC]

Even if God condemned us into Hell, He would still be a God of grace, love and mercy. Yet because He decided to establish that through the blood of Jesus the price of salvation would come about then I have faith that the blood has saved me, will save me and will continue to save! The blood and God's love is interconnected but the blood purchased our salvation!
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, ' (Romans 3:25)
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.' Romans 5:9
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.' Revelations 12:11