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Born Again Experience

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by WalterandDebbie, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. WalterandDebbie

    WalterandDebbie Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Born Again Experience! We learned that most professing christians today seem to believe that being born again is a simple matter, it merely involves professing Christ as your personal saviour, and presto, you are thereby automatically born again, or born of the spirit of GOD.

    Well as a matter of fact, the scripture says in John 3:3-5, but if one would read through to the 21st. verse you will find that its context is not pertaining to be born again here on his earth while in the flesh. But John 3:3-5 is talking about Eph. 5:26.
     
  2. Rex

    Rex New Member

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  3. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    John 3:5 ties in with Ti 3:5

    John 3:5
    Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

    Ti 3:5
    he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit

    Born of water and Spirit


    As prophesied by Ezekial
    I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you…. (Ez 36:25-27)


    but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the
    Spirit of our God.
    (1Cor 6:11)

    “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.” (Rom 6:3-4).
     
    Selene likes this.
  4. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    This is the Armstrong church view and it is wrong...

    1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
    1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Some bibles say...having been born again. This is past event for Peter and for others who have been regenerated through the Holy Spirit.
     
  5. WalterandDebbie

    WalterandDebbie Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Do you believe what Jesus said, that, once 'converted,' or begotten by the HOLY SPIRIT, that you need to grow by every word of God which CLEANS YOU UP SPIRITUALLY just as water cleans you physically (John 3:5; Eph. 5:26), so that you will finally be born of God and inherit the Kingdom?

    Born Again NOW' a False Teaching
    Masquerading as ministers of righteousness, they have DELUDED MILLIONS -- not the few, but the millions -- into accepting and appropriating Jesus Christ, shedding a few tears and believing in a superstitious 'born again' experience.

    Because Jesus made the new birth the essential to entering the kingdom of God, SATAN has his churches and his ministers preaching COUNTERFEIT new births to deceive the people, and to make the true way appear false (II Cor. 11:14,15).
    Some make it a little more involved by working up an emotional ecstasy which is interpreted to mean regeneration, sanctification, baptism of the Holy Ghost, and a new birth!
     
  6. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you are saying there!

    I think Jesus version is much clearer:

    Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (Jn 3:5)

    Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit………. He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mt 29:19 & Mk 16:16)
     
  7. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! 'Walter'
    Ummm, Walter, yuh gotta' take a deep breath an' exhale all your pestering frustrations.
    Nothing is to be gained by accusing people of emptiness and/or as cooperating with lies and deceit.
    Involuntary scriptural ignorance and lack of teaching is not something devilish. All of us Christians are travelling an individualistic unfolding road; each one of us is in a state of growth and development.
    Yes, it's very true, Walter, that there are some who seem to be much further on the road of Christian learning and maturity than others might be. But this doesn't give anyone the right to indulge in accusations against those among us who might be weak and unskilled in the Word.
    I occasionally read some Threads here that cause me distress too. But then I'm reminded about how, after my first hearing the Gospel 40+ years ago, that I too had attached myself to some rather bizarre thoughts and ideas soon after.
    No one has the truth-and-nothing-but-the-truth. We are all sorting out our own Salvation; More importantly, everyone's Salvation is a 'personal' experience and we would do well to appreciate that more about our Christian brothers and sisters.
    After all, it's not for nothing that Philippians 2:12 says, "... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".
    And, I should like to add: All the more "fear and trembling" when addressing the state of another's walk into Salvation!
     
  8. clark thompson

    clark thompson Member

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    I would say it is a struggle
     
  9. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    It is hard for some to accept that life is a free gift. (Rom.5:15-18). In fact, if one would rather introduce their works into the equation, they remove faith from it. Works are done as a result of having been born again. The new birth is the beginning, not the end. The new birth is that which cleans one up spiritually. We have this treasure in earthen vessels so that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us (2Cor.4:7). So we find that the new birth is a new man, and he is in conflict with the old man of the flesh (Eph.4:24). The soul is the neutral ground and is where the wrestling is done between the two. (Gal.5:17)

    There is no further cleansing work that is needed for eternal life other than the new birth, by faith. What we do in the flesh, in this life, determines our measure of reward handed out on the judgment seat of Christ. It does not determine our salvation. Emotional ecstasy, as the op calls it, can indeed be worked up, but it does not prove that the person is not born again any more than it proves he is.

    In fact if a person is lacking the joy of his salvation, I would be looking into why that is.
     
  10. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    And we receive that new birth in Baptism

    What we do in life does not determine our salvation?

    So I can murder and commit adultery with impunity?

    I just get a small hut in heaven rather than a big mansion?

    OSAS (once saved always saved) contradicts scripture in so many places
     
  11. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Are you serious? Is that some sort of fantasy that you have...to go out and murder someone? Are you chomping at the bit to find someone you can commit adultery with? I doubt it. Most Christians who went through the process of acknowledging their sin and their need for salvation, and understanding that they cannot earn life but must accept it as a free gift, do not have a hidden agenda of taking this gift and then happily running out and doing whatever sinful activity they can. This is an unlikely scenario. We all know and understand that sin is unfulfilling and causes misery and trouble. It is not some kind of wonderful experience that we are sorry for being deprived of. Lets get real.

    However, in Rev.2, Jesus addressed some of His servants in Thyatira who were being beguiled to commit sexual immorality. Based on what some are saying here, you would think He immediately disowned them or warned them that they were in danger of a loss of their salvation. However, He did something else. He told them that unless they repented, He would cast them into great tribulation. This is not THE great tribulation. This is simply a lot of trouble. Know what this is called? Chastening!!!
     
  12. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Exactly unless they repented.

    There are many scriptures that destroy OSAS. It is an evil doctrine.
     
  13. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Sir: I don't think you actually understood my point from Rev.2. Do you know what chastening is? It is correction for the purpose of moral improvement. It is what we do with our own children. It has nothing to do with taking away one's eternal life. Jesus will chasten us in this life. But in my defense, I am not trying to defend nor promote osas. I am simply promoting what the bible says about what happens at the new birth and how it happens.

    Concerning the gift of life, I marvel at how many do not get just what the sacrifice of Jesus was for. Some apparently feel that it provides a temporary reprieve, and that it is somehow limited in its taking away the sin of the believer. It is not sin that causes one to lose life, or as some call it; salvation. Sin has no power to do that in the believer. One can only lose their eternal life if one falls away from faith. And if that takes place, as Heb.6:1-6 states, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. The passage reveals that if one were to fall away while in this life, it will be permanent. Sin cannot possibly cause this falling away. 1John 2:1 would then be a lie. We have an advocate. The sacrifice of Jesus is a perpetual offering for sin.

    The blood of bulls and goats were continually offered. This is because they only covered sin. They did not have the ability to take away sin (Heb.10:4). But the author if Hebrews was making the point that the blood of Jesus did what the old sacrifices could not do. And in Heb.10:12-14, we find that His work is forever, perfecting forever those who are sanctified by it. This verse in in the past tense. Jesus took away our sin. But we know we can still sin. So did He in fact take it away or not? Yes He did, from God's record of us. Scripture cannot lie.

    There are those who are making the suggestion by their warnings.. that Jesus failed to take away our sin. But this is where the OP comes in. The new birth provides us with the new man, who is righteous and holy (Eph.4:24). The old man, which is the part of us that still holds sin, is considered by God to be dead, crucified with Christ. The wages of sin is death. Because through faith we are identified with His death, then through faith we are also alive with Him.

    Here is a little secret. The righteous works we do are considered from the new man and are kept in God's record for the rewards given at the judgment seat of Christ. The sin that we may do (hopefully not, but just in case), is placed onto the record of the old man and is therefore paid for by the death of the old man.
    Does this give us a license to sin? Who cares? Why would we even want a license to be miserable and unhappy? This is what sin provides. This is why we came to Him in the first place: For the life that sin cannot give us. As well, as our Lord, He has the right to provide chastening if we sin. In fact the bible says that if we are not chastened, we are illegitimate children.

    I have an FYI, for some people. We cannot save ourselves. This is the work of the blood of the lamb. If one thinks that God will honor his effort to remain sinless, with everlasting life...think again. These efforts are filthy rags. The only righteousness He will accept is that of His Son, which is ours by faith. Our works may provide evidence to each other that we have faith, but God knows the heart. We do not have to prove our faith to Him by our works. He would not have rewarded our faith in the first place with Life through the new birth, if it were not genuine. Do you not realize that?
     
  14. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    Walter, simple question. Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

    Act_19:2
    He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    2Co_11:4
    For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    Act_8:17
    Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

    Walter, it is imperative that we "see the kingdom of God" now and not later. Jesus says that we CANNOT see the kingdom of God if we are not born of the spirit (born again). Same as receiving His Spirit.

    John_3:3
    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    John_3:7
    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    If you have received Him then you have been "born of God".

    John_1:12
    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    John_1:13
    Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
     
  15. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Sin has consequences. Serious sin has serious consequences – the loss of eternal life.


    Jesus:
    If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. (Mt 5:29-30)

    "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned". (Jn 15:1-6)

    The pruning is chastisement. But if we do not abide in Christ, if we bear no fruit, we are cut off and burned,


    Paul:
    Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:16)

    For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. (Gal 5:1-2)

    Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

    Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. (Rom 11:22)
     
  16. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    I don't know if you are actually reading my posts. I have never said osas. I do not disagree that if one bears no fruit, he will be destroyed. But you therefore are equating serious sin with no fruit. This is wrong. Sin is sin. Fruit is fruit. The presence of one is not the opposite of the other. They can both be present together. But as well, if we are to accept that some sin will not disqualify, but serious sin will, then we have a brand new category. We are saying that Jesus did not in fact die for all sin but merely the non serious sin. Are you kidding me?

    The consequences of sin remain what they always have been in this life. It causes hardship, heartache, misery, only temporary satisfaction, and where it is a crime, punishment.
    I find it astonishing that you have quoted two references from Gal.5, implying that they say what you conclude them to say. The first reference is about the attempt to be justified by law. This is how one can fall from grace, and Christ be of no advantage. However, if we use the second reference to imply that the believer needs to follow the law in order to inherit the kingdom of God, then we find direct conflict and contradiction between the two references. Sin is transgression of law. If one needs to quit sinning to be saved, then salvation is by law. This is the opposite of what is written.

    But the second reference in Gal.5 is an exhortation to walk in the spirit and not behave like those who are not in Christ, who are totally in the flesh. Paul is not telling them that they themselves must walk in the spirit to inherit eternal life.
    Here is the problem. In order for a believer to lose his eternal life by way of judgment for sin, then he must actually come under judgment. This will not happen. If you don't believe me, just read John 5:24, where Jesus promised that those who are of faith in Him will not come under judgment, but rather have passed from death to life.

    And by the way, as for Rom.11:22, the way we continue in God's kindness is to continue in faith. Faith is the method by which we receive a free gift from God. Life is a free gift. The minute we feel the need to work for that which is freely offered, we oppose the receiving of it by faith. It is one or the other. Not both.
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Per the Book of Acts some received baptism of The Holy Spirit PRIOR to being baptized of water. And others baptized of water still had not received baptism of The Holy Spirit yet.

    Acts 2:38-39
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    (KJV)

    Peter showed repentance and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is a prerequisite of receiving The Holy Spirit. But he said said that prior to his experience with The Holy Spirit manifesting among the Gentiles he was sent to preach The Gospel to in Acts 10. Those Gentiles were water baptized after the fact.


    Acts 8:14-17
    14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
    15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
    16 (For as yet He was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
    17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
    (KJV)

    These at Samaria were baptized in Christ's Name by water only, and received The Holy Spirit baptism via the Apostle's visit.


    Acts 10:44-48
    44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
    (KJV)

    Acts 11:15-18
    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
    (KJV)


    That difference is also what helps us define which baptism our Lord Jesus was speaking of in the John 3 chapter with Nicodemus. He was speaking of being born of the water of woman's womb, and being born of The Holy Spirit. We may say the same thing today, that some are born again of The Spirit at their water baptism, and others receive The Holy Spirit later after their water baptism. Regardless, one must be born of The Spirit to see the Kingdom of God, and that is only through Faith on our Lord Jesus Christ.


    But what we have today are some Church denominations that wrongly teach that if you don't speak in 'tongues', then you don't have evidence of baptism by The Holy Spirit. God didn't make speaking the cloven tongue of Pentecost a requirement of evidence, nor did any of the Apostles. Apostle Paul even showed that the administration of The Holy Spirit is meted out to each believer per the various offices he described. God showed the Apostles, especially those like Peter in Acts 10, that HE is Who decides whom His Spirit is poured upon, men don't.
     
  18. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Staff Member

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