Born Again

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Soyeong

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Greetings Soyeong
Which laws are you speaking of?
Greetings. The Law of God straightforwardly refers to the laws that God has given. In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God spoke to him without departing from it, which is why the Law of Moses is called the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23.

Alternatively, I am speaking about walking in God's way, which is the way to know Him and Jesus by embodying His character traits. For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he might teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him. In 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Law of Moses. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in God's way, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).
 
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Greetings. The Law of God straightforwardly refers to the laws that God has given. In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God spoke to him without departing from it, which is why the Law of Moses is called the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23.

Alternatively, I am speaking about walking in God's way, which is the way to know Him and Jesus by embodying His character traits. For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he might teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him. In 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Law of Moses. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in God's way, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).
Thanks for you reply.
What do you think of Jesus' breaking down those laws into just 2 laws?
 

Soyeong

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Thanks for you reply.
What do you think of Jesus' breaking down those laws into just 2 laws?
You're welcome. The commandments to love God and our neighbor are inclusive of all of the other commandments, which which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the rest of the Law of Moses. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit idolatry, adultery, murder, theft, rape, favoritism, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest on the Law of Moses. The way to love God is by embodying His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. In other words, the goal of everything that God has commanded in the Law of Moses is to teach us how to love different aspects of His character traits, which is why the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments.

The greatest two commandments are much easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of the Law of Moses in order to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of the Law of Moses because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. Moreover, in Deuteronomy 6:4-7, the way to obey the greatest commandment in the Bible is essentially by being zealous for teaching obedience to the Law of Moses.
 
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The greatest two commandments are much easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of the Law of Moses in order to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of the Law of Moses because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. Moreover, in Deuteronomy 6:4-7, the way to obey the greatest commandment in the Bible is essentially by being zealous for teaching obedience to the Law of Moses.
Love is the foundation. The Law is a description of what love can look like, not the source of love.
It is not "obey the rules, and you'll become loving"
Rather it is be transformed by the Spirit, and you'll naturally love
What are the laws? The two, the ten or the three hundred and thirteen?
The two laws are not "easier said than done".
One simply has to say "I will Love GOD" and get about developing that relationship. "The Law" cannot achieve this.
One must simply say "I will love others with the same genuine love I have for myself - the Love that my relationship with The Father revealed to me. The Father Loves me. Therefore I have no excuse not to love myself therefore I have no excuse not to love others.

Sure. If one chooses to follow Moses, then one will have to be zealous in that regard - even to keep the sabbath.
The love of the law ≠ having a loving relationship with The Father.
Jesus followed The Father and in that, showed that love for The Father was not at all diminished by not keeping the sabbath.
Jesus showed forgiveness for the adulteress by adding to the law her accusers were using, that anyone without sin could throw the first stone.

Being Born Again does indeed require effort and commitment but not to laws used to bind people in traditions which don't get them any nearer to either Loving GOD or Loving their neighbour - no matter how zealous one is. Jesus decomplicated by making it simpler.

Zeal without love is empty.
 

Soyeong

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Love is the foundation. The Law is a description of what love can look like, not the source of love.
It is not "obey the rules, and you'll become loving"
I agree. The issue of the way to attain a character trait is different from the issue of what describe the behavior of someone who has a character trait. The only way to attain a character trait is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to have a character trait is to be a doer of works that embody that trait. The Law of Moses was not given as a way of attaining the character traits of God even as the result of having perfect obedience to it, but rather it was given to describe the behavior of someone who has the character traits of God as it describe the behavior of the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character, and who embodied those traits through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses.

Rather it is be transformed by the Spirit, and you'll naturally love
What are the laws? The two, the ten or the three hundred and thirteen?
The two laws are not "easier said than done".
One simply has to say "I will Love GOD" and get about developing that relationship. "The Law" cannot achieve this.
One must simply say "I will love others with the same genuine love I have for myself - the Love that my relationship with The Father revealed to me. The Father Loves me. Therefore I have no excuse not to love myself therefore I have no excuse not to love others.
There are 613 laws. If someone thought that they just need to obey the commands to love God and their neighbor, so they didn't need to obey the command against committing murder, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and our neighbor and the same is true for all of God's other laws. A sum is inclusive of all of its parts, so summarizing the Law of Moses as being about how to love God and our neighbor implies our understanding of what it is essentially about how to do, but it does not change what we are required to do.

Sure. If one chooses to follow Moses, then one will have to be zealous in that regard - even to keep the sabbath.
The love of the law ≠ having a loving relationship with The Father.
The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by having the experience of embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to experience an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

Jesus followed The Father and in that, showed that love for The Father was not at all diminished by not keeping the sabbath.
Jesus showed forgiveness for the adulteress by adding to the law her accusers were using, that anyone without sin could throw the first stone.
In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, so Jesus did not do that. Jesus was sinless, so he never therefore broke the Sabbath, but rather keeping the Sabbath holy is part of the way to show our love for God's holiness. If someone refuses to follow God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, then holiness is an aspect of God's character traits that they do not love. Witness should be free from sin in the matter that they testify about so that they are not required to condemn themselves through their own testimony.

Being Born Again does indeed require effort and commitment but not to laws used to bind people in traditions which don't get them any nearer to either Loving GOD or Loving their neighbour - no matter how zealous one is. Jesus decomplicated by making it simpler.
A child of someone is a person who is in their likeness through being a doer of their character traits, such as with John 8:39 where Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doers of the same works as him. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character, which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, so that is what it means for him to be the Son of God and what it means for us to be children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example. This is why those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God (1 John 3:4-10) and why Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God (Romans 8:4-14).

Zeal without love is empty.
Indeed, zeal should be in accordance with love.
 
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There are 613 laws. If someone thought that they just need to obey the commands to love God and their neighbor, so they didn't need to obey the command against committing murder, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and our neighbor and the same is true for all of God's other laws.
Perhaps we are talking past one another. When you say "The Law of Moses" are you referring all of the 613?

You mention here committing murder. Some might keep that law simply because the do not want to go to prison. So they do not murder but they are no closer to a relationship with The Father.

And those who love The Father, wouldn't even contemplate murder.
So, the argument that one gets closer to God through the law seems a relic of religion rather than something of the heart.
 

Soyeong

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Perhaps we are talking past one another. When you say "The Law of Moses" are you referring all of the 613?\\
Indeed.

You mention here committing murder. Some might keep that law simply because the do not want to go to prison. So they do not murder but they are no closer to a relationship with The Father.

And those who love The Father, wouldn't even contemplate murder.
So, the argument that one gets closer to God through the law seems a relic of religion rather than something of the heart.
The way to know God is through embodying His character traits and the goal of the Law of Moses is to teach us how to do that, but someone can still go through the motions of obeying the Law of Moses while neglecting to be a doer of the character traits of God that it was given in order to teach us how to embody and thus neglect to know God. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness. Philippians 3:8, Paul was in the same situation where he had been obeying the Law of Moses while neglecting to know Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and counted that as rubbish.

People can obey the Law of Moses for reasons other than love, but the Law of Moses describes the behavior of someone who is loving as it describes the behavior of Christ. It is not loving our neighbor to commit murder regardless of whether or not someone would contemplate that.
 
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Nicodemus was a teacher of the law. If the law could achieve what you say it is designed to achieve, then there would be no reason for Jesus to have incarnated into the human experience and tell Nicodemus what he did.
Indeed, there would be no reason for Israel to have strayed.
So, while your theory sounds reasonable, the practicality of it appears faulty. The learned teaches of Israel even uplifting the law did not come any closer to relationship with The Father because the law was never meant for that purpose and shouldn;t be conflated with relationship with The Father.
The law - as an entity - is a dead thing and dead things do not and cannot be that which allow living entities to have relationship on the genuine level necessary in regard to what Jesus - in the bible - spoke of and nor can the law give us access to the far greater things Jesus taught which the bible (itself a kind of law) makes no mention of.

Man was not made for the law or the bible. Man was made for the purpose of connecting with the living GOD and entering in genuine relationship with The Father - and that genuine relationship fulfils what the law consistently shows it could not achieve.

Make the law (or the bible) the master, and miss the point entirely.

Relationship with the law is not relationship with The Father.

That is what I think.

I am open to be shown by you what your relationship with The Father consists of - how you relate with The Father. Verbatim.

In Love