"But who do you say that I am?"

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Insight

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Jesus in preparation for their ministry he had to bring the disciples to an acknowledgment of his true status before God and man; he had to reveal to them the circumstances of his death and what this would impose on them, and had to manifest also the glory that will ultimately be revealed. The apostles were ready for the glory, but did not realise that the cross must come before the crown; nor did they understand what true discipleship of the Lord required in the way of personal self-sacrifice. All this had to be taught them in such a way that the lesson would never be forgotten. To that end, he sought the help and guidance of his Father. In a quiet place, undisturbed by the crowds that usually flocked around him, and with the apostles also standing apart, he gave himself up to solitary prayer, communicating with his Father in heaven, seeking His aid in the revelation that was about to be given to the disciples. Then, having completed his prayer, he beckoned his apostles to him, and as they made their way along, he asked them a question:

"Whom do men say that I the Son of Man am?"

There probably was a pause as they thought out the answer. They knew, from the idle guesses of the people, that in spite of all his labours, in teaching, and miracles, the Messiah had not been recognised by the very people he had come to save. Many were wondering who he really was. Some repeated the verdict of the guilty, conscience-smitten Herod, and decided he was John the Baptist; others who may have heard him sternly denouncing the Pharisees for their hypocrisy, likened him to the fiery Elijah; others, again, who had witnessed his tender compassion for the unfortunate, saw in his pathos and feeling, the manifestation of a Jeremiah sent to save the nation from disaster; but most only looked upon him as a prophet, proclaiming the will and purpose of God. The light had been revealed in Israel, but the eyes of men were too blind to see it.

The disciples replied: “Some say John the Baptist, others say, Elijah, others again, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

None were now saying that he was the Christ!

They had acknowledged that a short time before, but his rebuff of the people in the synagogue of Capernaum had turned many disciples from him, and had discouraged the people from looking upon him as king. His popularity was surely waning. That, in fact, was what the answer of the apostles confirmed! "Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." But Jesus continued his questioning:

"But who do you say that I am?"

The answer came boldly from Peter. He repeated, even more dogmatically, the statement he had made when so many were turning from the Lord outside the synagogue in Capernaum (John 6:66).

"You ARE THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD!"

It was a declaration of the greatest significance.

As "the Christ," it meant that he was the King of Israel, the One who would fulfil the promises made to Eve (Gen 3:15), to Abraham (Gen 22), and to David (2 Sam. 7). And these required that the nation of Israel must be restored, Christ must reign as king, the blessings of his rule must be extended throughout the world, with the worthy granted immortality to share it. The declaration comprehended the fullness of the gospel message proclaimed to Abraham:

"In thee shall all nations be blessed" (Gal 3:8,16).

By "the Son of the living God," Peter meant that he was, in a very special sense, the Son of Yahweh. This was a tremendous statement for any Jew to make, for whilst some may have looked upon him as a son of God by divine selection and guidance of the nation (see Exo 4:22-23; Deut 14:1; Hos. 1:10), Peter's words signified much more than that, and implied that Jesus was literally the Son of Yahweh by divine begettal.

To confess such teaching as that, would be considered blasphemous by most Jews and would, indeed, be blasphemy except that in Jesus' case it is true. The declaration meant that he was the manifestation of the Father from heaven by divine begettal through the virgin Mary, and that all he did and was, stemmed from the strength that he derived from God.

Only "God in Christ" could perform the miracles that the disciples had seen (Acts 2:22). Only "God in Christ" could gain the victory over flesh that his complete sinlessness and character revealed (2Cor 5:19). Only "God in Christ" could utter such words of wisdom and doctrine of salvation, such as he expressed (John 12:49). Peter's confession shows that the doctrine of the Trinity is a blasphemous error, but that people must really understand the doctrine of God Manifestation if they would truly know Jesus.

It reveals that the Lord derived strength from a Power outside of himself in order to manifest the divine likeness as he did, and implies that all must do likewise who would walk in the ways of God (Phil 4:13).

Insight
 

Insight

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I question whether Peter fully understood all that is implied in his wonderful confession; we are not told, but his subsequent actions showed that he failed to comprehend the fulness of the divine purpose in the Lord (see Mat 16:22) until after the Lord's resurrection; nevertheless it was a declaration full of encouragement to the Master at that moment, showing that some of his instruction was penetrating the minds of the apostles. "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-jona," answered Jesus, "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven!"

Have you considered why Jesus called Peter Simon Bar-jona?

Insight
 

Duckybill

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Peter understood.

John 21:17 (NKJV)
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

Only God knows all things.
 

Insight

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No response...Zech 2:13
thinking-005.gif


He called him Simon Bar-jona because as a name expressed the attitude of Peter in giving this confession. Simon Bar-jona means: The Hearing One filled with the Dove. The dove was the symbol of the Spirit revealed at the baptism of Jesus (Mat 3:16) made flesh in him, so that the use of this name was commendation that Peter had listened to the spirit-words as Christ had uttered them (John 6:63, 68,69), and that his declaration was the emanation of this influence. It was not "flesh and blood" that had revealed them, though Jesus was flesh and blood, but the Father in heaven who spoke through the Son (see John 8:15,16; 7:16). As Jesus hearkened to the Father (John 8:26), so his followers must hearken unto him (John 6:45). They must both hear and act, and if they will do this they will also be constituted "sons of God" as per Rom. 8:14.

What thinkest thou
thinking-020.gif
 

Duckybill

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No response...Zech 2:13
thinking-005.gif


He called him Simon Bar-jona because as a name expressed the attitude of Peter in giving this confession. Simon Bar-jona means: The Hearing One filled with the Dove. The dove was the symbol of the Spirit revealed at the baptism of Jesus (Mat 3:16) made flesh in him, so that the use of this name was commendation that Peter had listened to the spirit-words as Christ had uttered them (John 6:63, 68,69), and that his declaration was the emanation of this influence. It was not "flesh and blood" that had revealed them, though Jesus was flesh and blood, but the Father in heaven who spoke through the Son (see John 8:15,16; 7:16). As Jesus hearkened to the Father (John 8:26), so his followers must hearken unto him (John 6:45). They must both hear and act, and if they will do this they will also be constituted "sons of God" as per Rom. 8:14.

What thinkest thou
thinking-020.gif
I think you're looking for contradictions that aren't there.

John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
 

brionne

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I think you're looking for contradictions that aren't there.

John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.


I know the rendering of John 1:1 is a good talking point for trinitarians so im not going to debate why the indefinite article is or isnt used.

But I think its interesting that before the trinity doctrine got its foot in the door, christians did not seem to take Johns words to mean 'the Word was God'

There is a language called 'coptic'...it was a language prevalent in Egypt during the early centuries, Pre 3rd century, and the important thing about the written language in coptic is that its very similar to english in that they use both definite and indefinite articles. Do you want to see how they translated the greek into coptic?

If you want to know how the earliest christian translators understood John 1:1 you can read it for yourself here. in the 3rd century coptic translation located at the Chester Beatty Library.
 
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Duckybill

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I know the rendering of John 1:1 is a good talking point for trinitarians so im not going to debate why the indefinite article is or isnt used.

But I think its interesting that before the trinity doctrine got its foot in the door, christians did not seem to take Johns words to mean 'the Word was God'

There is a language called 'coptic'...it was a language prevalent in Egypt during the early centuries, Pre 3rd century, and the important thing about the written language in coptic is that its very similar to english in that they use both definite and indefinite articles. Do you want to see how they translated the greek into coptic?

If you want to know how the earliest christian translators understood John 1:1 you can read it for yourself here. in the 3rd century coptic translation located at the Chester Beatty Library.
All irrelevant Pegg.

John 1:1 (ESV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (ASV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (NIV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (YLT)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

John 1:1 (BBE)
1 From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God.

John 1:1 (Darby)
1 In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (NLT)
1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (NRSV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (WEY)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 

brionne

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it is very relevant ducky

Why did those earliest christians translate it that way? Because that is how they understood it back then.
 

Duckybill

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it is very relevant ducky

Why did those earliest christians translate it that way? Because that is how they understood it back then.
Or because they were correct. They also read Isaiah 9:6.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV)
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jesus' Kingdom is the Kingdom of God, FOREVER.

Luke 22:29-30 (NKJV)
30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

John 18:36 (NKJV)
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."
 

brionne

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I can agree with the above verses and believe 100% that Jesus kingdom is the Kingdom of God. I have no issue with that at all.

:)

and my opinion of John 1:1 is still the same.
 

Duckybill

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I can agree with the above verses and believe 100% that Jesus kingdom is the Kingdom of God. I have no issue with that at all.

:)

and my opinion of John 1:1 is still the same.
The Word/Jesus was God? Yes, indeed.

Jesus/God:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
 

Duckybill

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If the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us wasn't Jesus, then who was the Word?
 

brionne

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The Word/Jesus was God? Yes, indeed.

Jesus/God:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

yep, he's a divine being, absolutely.
 

brionne

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I don't understand. Care to elaborate?

what does the word 'god' mean? in hebrew it means 'mighty strong one'

So yes, Jesus is certainly a mighty strong one.... we can call him a god. he is a god. Just as the early christians believed him to be.
 

Duckybill

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what does the word 'god' mean? in hebrew it means 'mighty strong one'
How many God's do you believe in? I believe in One.
So yes, Jesus is certainly a mighty strong one.... we can call him a god. he is a god. Just as the early christians believed him to be.
If Jesus wasn't THE God of the Bible, then are you saying He was a false god? I don't understand.
 

brionne

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How many God's do you believe in? I believe in One.

If Jesus wasn't THE God of the Bible, then are you saying He was a false god? I don't understand.


Who was God speaking to in Genesis when he said "Let us make man in our image" ?

Was it not The Word....the one who has been with him since the beginning of creation?