California and Arkansas harassing Jim Bakker's Morningside Church for supporters names and addresses

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Avalon1

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Televangelist Jim Bakker Suing Several Agencies Over Demands Of Records

"Televangelist Jim Bakker is suing the Arkansas AG, the city of Los Angeles and two other California counties after lawyers demand records including names of supporters, addresses and financial contributions.

Bakker’s attorneys say the attempt to get records is a violation of the first amendment, and religious freedom.

Attorneys for one of America’s best-known pastors moved Friday to block "disturbing" government efforts to force his church to hand over the personal details of his congregation — calling it "a very dangerous overstep."

The "heavy-handed" demand by government officials could have broad and "sinister" repercussions for churches across America, warned Pastor Jim Bakker’s lawyers Friday, as they filed a lawsuit in federal court to stop the move."
 

Avalon1

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No matter what your opinion of Jim Bakker is I think this is an governmental overreach by California and Arkansas. They're going to start doing this more to churches, churches should be concerned.
 
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Giuliano

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No matter what your opinion of Jim Bakker is I think this is an governmental overreach by California and Arkansas. They're going to start doing this more to churches, churches should be concerned.
Churches that act like churches have nothing to fear.

I don't think most churches would even dream about doing what Bakker did. Why was he trying to sell silver solution at an outrageous price and telling people it could cure the coronavirus? I imagine the governments want to know if anyone was injured by overdosing on his silver solution. What's his next act, making his own white lightning and peddling that as a tonic?
 
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Rita

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I don’t know much about the church, but I understand it is under investigation. So I don’t think this is an out and out attack as such, more a matter of procedure during an investigation. Wasn’t he done for fraud years ago !?
At the end of the day if a church appears to be acting financially wrong, surely the finances have to be looked into....
Rita
 
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Prayer Warrior

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AP Report--

TV pastor Jim Bakker hopes attorney general halts probe

June 10, 2020

O’FALLON, Mo. (AP) — Missouri-based TV pastor Jim Bakker hopes Arkansas’ attorney general does not obtain personal information of his congregation members as part of an investigation into his false promotion of a product claiming it cured the coronavirus.

Bakker’s attorneys said Attorney General Leslie Rutledge’s efforts were an affront to religious freedom and “disturbing,” according to the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette.

A civil action was filed late last week on behalf of Bakker and his Morningside Church and Morningside Church Productions, less than three months after the state of Missouri sued Bakker for falsely claiming that a health supplement could cure the coronavirus


Bakker asked a judge to dismiss the state lawsuit in May. His product, ‘Silver Solution,’ is described as a colloidal silver, which is a product often sold on the internet as a dietary supplement.

Amanda Priest, an attorney general’s office spokeswoman, said Arkansas consumers were “deceived” by Bakker and may have been harmed “financially and physically” by the pastor’s actions.

Jay Nixon, one of Bakker’s attorneys and former governor, said Rutledge’s information-seeking could set a dangerous precedent.

“It’s extremely disturbing that this is happening in America and especially in the State of Arkansas,” Nixon stated in a news release. “It’s a very dangerous and sinister overstep when the government demands the names, addresses and personal financial information of church members. It could be your church next.”

Another of Bakker’s attorneys, Derek Ankrom, stated that Rutledge’s pursuit of personal information “presents the question of whether a governmental agency may, in the name of ‘consumer protection,’ intrusively supervise, inquire into, censor or punish religiously-motivated speech of a pastor to his congregation.”

Priest said the issue is public deception and not religious freedom. She said that though Attorney General Rutledge has a long history of fighting for religious freedom from government overreach, at the same time, she continues to vigorously fight against those who would deceive Arkansans into false cures and fraudulently steal their money.

Source: TV pastor Jim Bakker hopes attorney general halts probe


I'm wondering about two things. The spokesman for the Arkansas AG said that people "may have been harmed" by the colloidal silver. Can the Arkansas AG prove that anyone was harmed?? Also, why would the AG need the personal info of Bakker's church members in this investigation? Sounds fishy to me.
.
 

Giuliano

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I don’t know much about the church, but I understand it is under investigation. So I don’t think this is an out and out attack as such, more a matter of procedure during an investigation. Wasn’t he done for fraud years ago !?
At the end of the day if a church appears to be acting financially wrong, surely the finances have to be looked into....
Rita
It may involve more than fraud in this case. There may be people who bought his colloidal silver and overdid it. Most of his viewers are elderly people and so devoted to him, they couldn't imagine any health problems they developed could have been caused by the silver. I think the government may want the names of people who bought it to see if anyone was injured and possibly too to see if any of them might want their money back. He was selling it for over $100 a bottle.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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It may involve more than fraud in this case. There may be people who bought his colloidal silver and overdid it. Most of his viewers are elderly people and so devoted to him, they couldn't imagine any health problems they developed could have been caused by the silver. I think the government may want the names of people who bought it to see if anyone was injured and possibly too to see if any of them might want their money back. He was selling it for over $100 a bottle.

I've never heard of anyone being injured by colloidal silver when it's prepared properly. Why would the AG need his church members' info? Why not get the contact info for people who purchased the product IF there have been any problems reported?

FYI, when colloidal silver is not prepared properly, a condition called argyria can result. In this case, the silver causes a bluish discoloration of the skin which can be permanent.

The following is an excerpt from an article I found on draxe.com.

Proven Colloidal Silver Benefits Or An Unsafe Hoax?
By Dr. Josh Axe, DC, DMN, CNS

July 19, 2019

What the research indicates is that misuse of colloidal silver, or choosing inexpensive, low-quality products that are not true colloidal silver, can cause adverse side effects. For instance, you may have come across warnings about it causing an irreversible condition called argyria, which is when people turn blue.

This is usually caused by cheaper products marketed as colloidal silver, such as ionic silver or silver protein.

Although the National Center for Complimentary and Integrative Health reports that colloidal silver may cause poor absorption of some drugs, including antibiotics and thyroxine, which is used to treat thyroid deficiency, there is limited research proving that these side effects to colloidal silver exist.

There is evidence that using colloidal silver for the treatment of chronic rhinosinusitis is not only effective, but safe when used as a sinus rinse for 10 days. Researchers found that colloidal silver rinses demonstrated a good safety profile with no major adverse events.

A lab study published in Particle and Fibre Toxicology found that when the human lung is exposed to silver nanoparticles, it does not cause adverse effects. Lung cells were only sensitive to high silver-ion concentrations.

A 2016 study conducted at the University of Michigan found that when oral doses of silver nanoparticles were administered for 28 days, it did not alterthe structure or diversity of the animal gut microbiome. This is in contrast to the detrimental effects of broad-spectrum antibiotics.

Many advocates are pointing to this study when suggesting the beneficial use of colloidal silver for pets.

And in a summary of literature published in Frontiers in Microbiology, researchers concluded that although there are some concerns and controversies related to nano’s safe use in human disease treatment and healthcare, the research that has been done suggests that it can be engineered to “enhance its antimicrobial efficacy, stability, specificity, biosafety and biocompatibility for increased therapeutic benefits and reduced potential side effects.”

From the current research, my take is that colloidal silver may work as a potential antimicrobial agent, but it needs to be used appropriately. Only true colloidal silver should be used and studies indicate that short-term use does not cause adverse side effects.

One point to consider is that, because colloidal silver is such a potent antibacterial agent, you should be sure to supplement with probiotics during use to be sure that you maintain a proper balance of microflora.

Source: Colloidal Silver: Is It Safe? Benefits vs. Risks
 
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Rita

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It may involve more than fraud in this case. There may be people who bought his colloidal silver and overdid it. Most of his viewers are elderly people and so devoted to him, they couldn't imagine any health problems they developed could have been caused by the silver. I think the government may want the names of people who bought it to see if anyone was injured and possibly too to see if any of them might want their money back. He was selling it for over $100 a bottle.
Yes, It mentioned the Collodial silver - that has come up a lot on the forum quite a bit.
We had a pastor in London who was selling a wonder cure for Covid-19, I think he was selling it to his congregation , and making a profit. He was prosecuted.
I would presume that if he was selling it to people who watch his show, then the chances are he was also selling it to the members of his church. With his past record I can only presume that red flags were raised. Isn’t he taking legal action as well ?
Also he has apparently had a stroke recently and is currently out of the public eye !
Rita
 
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Rita

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I've never heard of anyone being injured by colloidal silver when it's prepared properly. Why would the AG need his church members' info? Why not get the contact info for people who purchased the product IF there have been any problems reported?

FYI, when colloidal silver is not prepared properly, a condition called argyria can result. In this case, the silver causes a bluish discoloration of the skin which can be permanent.

The following is an excerpt from an article I found on draxe.com.

Proven Colloidal Silver Benefits Or An Unsafe Hoax?
By Dr. Josh Axe, DC, DMN, CNS

July 19, 2019

What the research indicates is that misuse of colloidal silver, or choosing inexpensive, low-quality products that are not true colloidal silver, can cause adverse side effects. For instance, you may have come across warnings about it causing an irreversible condition called argyria, which is when people turn blue.

This is usually caused by cheaper products marketed as colloidal silver, such as ionic silver or silver protein.

Although the National Center for Complimentary and Integrative Health reports that colloidal silver may cause poor absorption of some drugs, including antibiotics and thyroxine, which is used to treat thyroid deficiency, there is limited research proving that these side effects to colloidal silver exist.

There is evidence that using colloidal silver for the treatment of chronic rhinosinusitis is not only effective, but safe when used as a sinus rinse for 10 days. Researchers found that colloidal silver rinses demonstrated a good safety profile with no major adverse events.

A lab study published in Particle and Fibre Toxicology found that when the human lung is exposed to silver nanoparticles, it does not cause adverse effects. Lung cells were only sensitive to high silver-ion concentrations.

A 2016 study conducted at the University of Michigan found that when oral doses of silver nanoparticles were administered for 28 days, it did not alterthe structure or diversity of the animal gut microbiome. This is in contrast to the detrimental effects of broad-spectrum antibiotics.

Many advocates are pointing to this study when suggesting the beneficial use of colloidal silver for pets.

And in a summary of literature published in Frontiers in Microbiology, researchers concluded that although there are some concerns and controversies related to nano’s safe use in human disease treatment and healthcare, the research that has been done suggests that it can be engineered to “enhance its antimicrobial efficacy, stability, specificity, biosafety and biocompatibility for increased therapeutic benefits and reduced potential side effects.”

From the current research, my take is that colloidal silver may work as a potential antimicrobial agent, but it needs to be used appropriately. Only true colloidal silver should be used and studies indicate that short-term use does not cause adverse side effects.

One point to consider is that, because colloidal silver is such a potent antibacterial agent, you should be sure to supplement with probiotics during use to be sure that you maintain a proper balance of microflora.

Source: Colloidal Silver: Is It Safe? Benefits vs. Risks
Sounds as if it needs to be taken responsibly, and I would suspect that it also needs to be weighed up with other meds that people may be taking. Many elderly people are on all kinds of meds- on the one hand it sounds a natural drug, but the potential for harm is there.
Must admit that I am not really Into pastors who want to make money out of selling things to people - it puts up a red flag for me.
Rita
 
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Giuliano

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Yes, It mentioned the Collodial silver - that has come up a lot on the forum quite a bit.
We had a pastor in London who was selling a wonder cure for Covid-19, I think he was selling it to his congregation , and making a profit. He was prosecuted.
I would presume that if he was selling it to people who watch his show, then the chances are he was also selling it to the members of his church. With his past record I can only presume that red flags were raised. Isn’t he taking legal action as well ?
Also he has apparently had a stroke recently and is currently out of the public eye !
Rita
I think he operates only on television. I don't think he has a real church. When he got out of prison, having served five of the eight years of his sentence, his lawyer said he was sure Bakker would never mix religion and commence. Hmmm. I don't know if he has paid the millions he woed to IRS off fully yet.

Have you seen the food buckets he sells? I can find videos if you want -- but basically he tries to scare people about the impending tribulation and says you need to buy these buckets of dried food -- just add water and heat. Anything for a buck. I think his appeal is mostly to the elderly; and I wonder how many of them get fleeced.

He has continued to be political too, doing his best to suck up to Trump. He predicted that if Trump was impeached, Christians would rise up and we'd have a Civil War. He peddles fear and panic. Oh, here is a video of that, complete with an ad for his food package: $2800 for the deluxe package.

 
R

Rita

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I presumed he had a church because the lawyers asked for names and addresses of the congregation - would not mean church membership !?
I cannot stand that kind of video. The thing is, if he was imprisoned for fraud why would you trust him - surely this would be one of the consequences he would have to face because of his actions.
I have heard of him, but not heard that much xx
Rita
 
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Giuliano

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I presumed he had a church because the lawyers asked for names and addresses of the congregation - would not mean church membership !?
I cannot stand that kind of video. The thing is, if he was imprisoned for fraud why would you trust him - surely this would be one of the consequences he would have to face because of his actions.
I have heard of him, but not heard that much xx
Rita
I don't think he has a real church. You would think "congregation" meant he had a church, but I don't think he does.

I think some people confuse forgiveness with trust. They think if you can forgive someone, that means you must trust him. Good-natured people want to believe offenders won't repeat their misdeeds. I think good people are often more easily fooled than wicked people -- and Bakker knows that and picks good people for his victims.

I think the Catholic Church finally figured that forgiveness and trust aren't the same thing. Just because a priest caught abusing boys says he's sorry doesn't mean he should be trusted again around children. If you know someone's weaknesses, you shouldn't put him in a situation where he could be tempted to do it again. LOL, I try to know my own weaknesses -- so I can avoid temptations.
 
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Rita

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I guess my experiences with an unfaithful husband taught me the difference - although with Christians I think that line is slightly dulled because you kind of think that there is more a chance of learning from your mistakes and changing. Rita
 
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DPMartin

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bakker is a hack and a fraud he was busted some time ago 80's 90's not sure when I do believe he spent some time in jail. anyway he's hasn't changed simple as that so no change then you'll get the same result. no surprise there. if there is a legitimate complaint against him, it's the AG's responsibility to investigate. just because its a church it doesn't justify getting special treatment. if there were complaints against a stock trading firm ripping off retirement funds, you would expect a full in your face investigation.
 

Bobby Jo

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To All,

This appears to be a Consumer Fraud case in which the government is seeking the names of people who purchased the "Colloidal Silver" products promoted as being a "cure" for the COVID (Wuhan) Virus. As such it would seem appropriate to include ALL purchasers, including church members.

It would also seem appropriate that any purchaser, including "church members", could exempt their names from the investigation, and merely appear as statistics. Unfortunately it would appear that Jim Bakker is more interested in saving his skin versus protecting the privacy of the purchasers/parishioners.

Welcome to the world of "Jim Bakker".
Bobby Jo
 

Enoch111

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Bakker’s attorneys say the attempt to get records is a violation of the first amendment, and religious freedom.
I'm not sure of Bakker's church has registered as a tax-exempt entity with the IRS, but if so, that would be at the root of the problem.
 

Avalon1

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To All,

This appears to be a Consumer Fraud case in which the government is seeking the names of people who purchased the "Colloidal Silver" products promoted as being a "cure" for the COVID (Wuhan) Virus. As such it would seem appropriate to include ALL purchasers, including church members.

Why?

It would also seem appropriate that any purchaser, including "church members", could exempt their names from the investigation, and merely appear as statistics. Unfortunately it would appear that Jim Bakker is more interested in saving his skin versus protecting the privacy of the purchasers/parishioners.

The attorney generals are the ones that want the church members names, how is that Jim Bakker's fault?
 

Bobby Jo

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... The attorney generals are the ones that want the church members names, how is that Jim Bakker's fault?

Apparently this not a "Church Member" problem, it's a CONSUMER FRAUD problem. My concern is that if ANY person doesn't feel they've been defrauded or that they don't wish to participate in a complaint, they should be able to BLOCK their name from access by the state.

But as I've already asserted, Bakker seems to want to leverage CHURCH MEMBER PRIVACY as though that were the issue, -- apparently so that Christians will force the Consumer Protection Division to back off. And if that's the case, then Bakker is using us once again.

Bobby Jo
 

Yehren

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Once he started peddling quack remedies, he lost any protection from the First Amendment to do so.