1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Calvinism?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Nancy, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,211
    Likes Received:
    3,123
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    From being involved for about 2.5 years in a Reformed Baptist church in which my pastor was/is a 5 pointer. For the 6 or so weeks of listening to his sermons, I decided to make an appointment with him, just to introduce myself and give him a little background from whence I came (I love that phrase :) ) During our visit, he told me he was a Calvinist. I knew what a Calvinist was, from a former church and my own reading...library then, lol.
    So, as I had not known previously that he had those beliefs, and his sermons did not include any Calvinistic "teachings"...I decided to continue attending for over 2 years. (shocking even myself!, lol) after much prayer. After awhile, I did start noticing undertones creeping in here and there, subtle, but obvious to me! As of almost 6 weeks ago, I am at a different and Awesome local body, I have been there before but was way too far for me so I stopped going there and watched online. They now have a campus like, 10 minutes from me! I fit like a glove there and know several people as well. Never fit in at the other although there are several brothers and sisters there that I miss and are still in touch with. I left on very good terms with the pastor and will continue to support them in what way I can.
    I will share a short, simple article in which my beliefs on the subject of Calvinism are firmly cemented. So, that said, I hope this thread can be maturely, humbly, and respectfully discussed. Replies are all welcome I just ask that if things get nasty-PLEASE take it to P.M.?
    Any Calvinists out there just remember, I love you ♥
    Arguments against Calvinism and Predestination
     
  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,668
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    I'll just say this -- Five Point Calvinism is a gross distortion of the Gospel. I'll be happy to elaborate if anyone has any questions.
     
    Thir7ySev3n and Nancy like this.
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,002
    Likes Received:
    923
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    In reading the article, I don't think the writer understands Calvinism. I used to attack Calvinist too but never ran into any who actually understood their position. It was my hearing the doctrine of Limited Atonement (Calvin did not teach this) that I realized two different Christianities existed side by side. (I heard the doctrine mentioned incidentally through someone attacking it)! And two different versions of Christ exist side by side. I began studying on my own and know what I believe to day. Am I a Calvinist? No, not technically speaking. I'm a Christian who keeps grace and works separate.
     
    LC627 and Nancy like this.
  4. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    436
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    We preach and evangelize because that is the avenue in which God has to call those who will be saved. God's sovereignty and mans responsibility fit together. We see in Acts 13:48 that all those who were "appointed to eternal life believed". It seems every so often this topic comes up and I believe for the most part on here we know where most people stand on the subject. Whether God ordained or man simply chooses out of his own free will (which is completely fallen and naturally against everything God stands for) our purpose is to minister the Word to the world regardless. Our mission is to exalt the name of Christ above all else. One thing for sure, we cannot create conviction in the hearts of people and the only reason any of us are Believers is because God convicted us and moved first. If God didn't convict then there would be no Believers in the world because man is evil (every single human)

    You can't make a blind man feel sorry that he can't see light
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
    Dave L likes this.
  5. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,666
    Likes Received:
    3,206
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada

    But you are forgetting that fire also gives off heat. It is not only those who are in the fire that are warm...but also the ones around it.

    I say this to illustrate that the idea that man is evil...is false....or that man stands against everything that God stands for. This is a man-made doctrine invented by a very nasty little man called Jean Calvin.

    Ironically he actually burned people alive for meeting in homes and teaching without his say so.

    So if you understand what I say...you will see it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
    faithfulness and Nancy like this.
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,002
    Likes Received:
    923
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Actually Augustine taught what Luther and Calvin both taught. Calvin being a lawyer put things a bit more precisely.
     
    LC627 likes this.
  7. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    436
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    So you believe that before coming to Christ you were a good person not deserving of the judgment of God?
    1 John 1:8,10 If we say, "we have no sin", we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us....If we say, "We don't have any sin" we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

    People do not like the idea of fallen mankind because it itches at their emotions - it's personal for many
     
  8. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,666
    Likes Received:
    3,206
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada

    What I'm saying is that you are putting God in a box...stamping it with a religious looking seal...and then judging everyone as the same.

    Some people will never become Christians...and yet even a cup of cold water given to a brother...because he is a brother...will not lose his reward.

    If you receive a righteous man in the name of a righteous man...you get a righteous man's reward. Likewise for a prophet. That's on 2 different levels...the heat and the flame.
     
    Nancy and faithfulness like this.
  9. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    436
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    John 6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day @Episkopos
     
  10. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,666
    Likes Received:
    3,206
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada

    Many are called...not all. Don't assume (from your box) that God doesn't have different levels of expectations for some but not others.

    To whom much is given MORE is required.

    So then the recipients of grace will be judged the hardest of all. Precisely the opposite of human opinion on the matter.
     
    stunnedbygrace and faithfulness like this.
  11. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    436
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    When you became a Christian it was because of the Holy Spirit convicting you of sin; if not for the Holy Spirit you, myself, and others would not be Believers. So then it was not your own free will because if not for God's conviction, you (myself included) would still be lost and in sin.
     
    Mjh29 likes this.
  12. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,666
    Likes Received:
    3,206
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Agreed. But I am in Christ. Very few will be in Christ. I don't judge others according to the grace given to me. I take God's mercy...and apply it to others...rather than turn on others in judgment as Calvinists do.

    I know that without grace I would be lost.

    So then God does NOT give everyone grace...to see what people will do. If we judge others...after God has granted us mercy...then we ourselves will be rejected by Christ. And He will have mercy instead on the ones who didn't receive His grace or mercy at the time. The kingdom of God is backwards from our religious ideas.

    This is the righteousness of God.
     
    faithfulness likes this.
  13. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    436
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The most important thing in life is the Gospel. You and I can't make people believers; we are called to preach Christ crucified. Whether you take the position I do or not, either way no one can escape the fact that God already knew everything before He created anything. God does elect people. John the Baptist did not choose his role in life, nor did Jeremiah.

    Jeremiah 1:5 I chose you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart before you were born. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.
     
  14. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,666
    Likes Received:
    3,206
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada

    But that's the point isn't it. We all play with a handicap or else a calling. We can't judge another by using OUR handicap or grace!!

    That is why we are not to judge.
     
    stunnedbygrace likes this.
  15. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    436
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It is not a handicap or judging. So it's just OK for John the Baptist and Jeremiah to not have a "free will" as it is put, but for everyone else they do.
     
  16. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,666
    Likes Received:
    3,206
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada

    A saint says..."others may but i cannot". Tozer said this...and I agree.

    Some people are born rich and get to choose what they eat. Others die of starvation.

    Are we really to be so blind as to say...when we hear that the poor have no bread..."why don't they eat cake"?

    is judgment not to be expected? So they who are smug in their salvation...will lose it.
     
  17. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,668
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    AND ALL WERE SERIOUSLY IN ERROR.

    In retrospect, it appears that just as Satan hijacked the early Church through Catholicism, he hijacked the Reformation with Five Point Calvinism (Reformed Theology).
     
    Nancy likes this.
  18. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,668
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    The issue is not fallen mankind, since all Christians know that Adam brought sin and death upon the human race, and that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

    The issue is the distortion of human beings through what is called "Total Depravity", which even denies that the unsaved have consciences and often follow their conscience. Notice "being altogether averse from that good".

    "III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."
    Westminster Confession of Faith

    But Scripture does not teach this:

    ROMANS 2
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


    Also, the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit are denied in bringing men to salvation. Instead Five Point Calvinism teaches that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they have believed the Gospel. That is patently false.
     
    Nancy likes this.
  19. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    436
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yet again you avoided my question.
     
  20. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    436
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The Bible does teach that man is dead in sin.
    Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins. <--- Did that not apply to you?
     
Loading...