Can Jesus and Paul be reconciled on the LAW?

[Danube]

This seems to be the one area that I cannot seem to reconcile with people I meet in Christian circles either at Church or lately online. Salvation by grace is a bit alien to me when it is explained in the context of my own conscientious reminders of Jesus' words that I read and pray to in the NT. Not willing to become a Paul basher for bashing sake I obviously continue to be wary of Paul. One Church I visited in the past just preached Corinthians with a sprinkle of Jesus and it made me think.
Does Jesus have more authority in his father's kingdom, than Paul? Of course he does, but without being sucked into the grace vs works debate ....the differences between Jesus and Paul are for me personally, growing exponentially since I came to Jesus for help, guidance and to know his teaching. What are peoples thoughts on what seem like (using a child like comprehension) glaringly obvious contradictions between the two on the subject of Law (Torah observance)?

In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus sets out his fold for whoever wants to see or reach the kingdom, so why do so many people rely on Paul who preached grace!??
Also there are an increasingly growing number of websites that are staunchly against Paul but also give very compelling arguements and list all the contradictions which when seen together makes it virtually impossible to defend Paul. I consider myself a quick learner but even I am at a loss here.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This seems to be the one area that I cannot seem to reconcile with people I meet in Christian circles either at Church or lately online. Salvation by grace is a bit alien to me when it is explained in the context of my own conscientious reminders of Jesus' words that I read and pray to in the NT. Not willing to become a Paul basher for bashing sake I obviously continue to be wary of Paul. One Church I visited in the past just preached Corinthians with a sprinkle of Jesus and it made me think.
Does Jesus have more authority in his father's kingdom, than Paul? Of course he does, but without being sucked into the grace vs works debate ....the differences between Jesus and Paul are for me personally, growing exponentially since I came to Jesus for help, guidance and to know his teaching. What are peoples thoughts on what seem like (using a child like comprehension) glaringly obvious contradictions between the two on the subject of Law (Torah observance)?

In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus sets out his fold for whoever wants to see or reach the kingdom, so why do so many people rely on Paul who preached grace!??
Also there are an increasingly growing number of websites that are staunchly against Paul but also give very compelling arguements and list all the contradictions which when seen together makes it virtually impossible to defend Paul. I consider myself a quick learner but even I am at a loss here.

I don't see any discrepancy. Jesus said that He would make us free from sin; that we would no longer be a slave to sin, but would instead be a son. John 8:34-36, 1 John 3:5. Paul says the same thing, that we are dead to sin. Romans 6:2. And Romans 8:14 says, For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

It is possible you have a warped definition of grace. It has been erroneously taught for decades, possibly centuries, that grace is "unmerited favor." It is actually favor. And the apostles taught that grace is the power of God given to us to be righteous. It is not of ourselves, it is the Spirit working through us. Therefore it is not our works, but works empowered by the Spirit. Romans 8:2-9. After all, James said, faith without works is dead. We need the Spirit.

Many are taught that we are no longer under the law, that Jesus covers us while we keep sinning. That is not freedom from sin, and a false doctrine of the most perverse kind. Jude calls it, "turning the grace of God into laciviousness. If you are being taught unmerited favor, RUN! No, Jesus was manifested to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. And Paul says, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So Paul is teaching what Jesus taught.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Here is something interesting: notice, that Romans 8:9 has the Trinity working in us. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Many on the forums do not agree with me, but I've shown you scriptural evidence. Study it, and you decide what you want to believe. Many have itching ears and choose teachers that tickle their fancy - all the way to hell.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP, it's the same with anything new. new covenant, new mediator. one need time to UNDERSTAND. even Peter had problems understanding Paul.
2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2 Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

sometimes it's not the messenger nor the message, it might be us who are unlearned. for the apostle James said, by the Holy Ghost,
James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

James 1:6 "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

 

[Trekson]

Another way to look at it is to understand that Jesus, was born, lived and died under the law so we wouldn't have to. The disciples at first shared the gospel only with other Jews until Peter's vision in Acts 10. Acts 15 is another good read on the subject. Paul was anointed to spread the gospel to the gentiles and that gospel for both was the law of grace.

 

[Truth]

This seems to be the one area that I cannot seem to reconcile with people I meet in Christian circles either at Church or lately online. Salvation by grace is a bit alien to me when it is explained in the context of my own conscientious reminders of Jesus' words that I read and pray to in the NT. Not willing to become a Paul basher for bashing sake I obviously continue to be wary of Paul. One Church I visited in the past just preached Corinthians with a sprinkle of Jesus and it made me think.
Does Jesus have more authority in his father's kingdom, than Paul? Of course he does, but without being sucked into the grace vs works debate ....the differences between Jesus and Paul are for me personally, growing exponentially since I came to Jesus for help, guidance and to know his teaching. What are peoples thoughts on what seem like (using a child like comprehension) glaringly obvious contradictions between the two on the subject of Law (Torah observance)?

In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus sets out his fold for whoever wants to see or reach the kingdom, so why do so many people rely on Paul who preached grace!??
Also there are an increasingly growing number of websites that are staunchly against Paul but also give very compelling arguements and list all the contradictions which when seen together makes it virtually impossible to defend Paul. I consider myself a quick learner but even I am at a loss here.

Paul's very statement, Be you an example of Me as I am of Yashua {Jesus} Should be an example! Here is the Problem! Before our Savior was put to death, He had His Disciples going out and declaring the Gospel of the Kingdom!!! Is the Gospel of the Kingdom all about the Death and Burial and the Resurrection, If so what were the Disciples Preaching???

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Another way to look at it is to understand that Jesus, was born, lived and died under the law so we wouldn't have to. The disciples at first shared the gospel only with other Jews until Peter's vision in Acts 10. Acts 15 is another good read on the subject. Paul was anointed to spread the gospel to the gentiles and that gospel for both was the law of grace.

Please describe what you believe is the "law of grace."

 

[Ezra]

This seems to be the one area that I cannot seem to reconcile with people I meet in Christian circles either at Church or lately online. Salvation by grace is a bit alien to me when it is explained in the context of my own conscientious reminders of Jesus' words that I read and pray to in the NT. Not willing to become a Paul basher for bashing sake I obviously continue to be wary of Paul. One Church I visited in the past just preached Corinthians with a sprinkle of Jesus and it made me think.
Does Jesus have more authority in his father's kingdom, than Paul? Of course he does, but without being sucked into the grace vs works debate ....the differences between Jesus and Paul are for me personally, growing exponentially since I came to Jesus for help, guidance and to know his teaching. What are peoples thoughts on what seem like (using a child like comprehension) glaringly obvious contradictions between the two on the subject of Law (Torah observance)?

In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus sets out his fold for whoever wants to see or reach the kingdom, so why do so many people rely on Paul who preached grace!??
Also there are an increasingly growing number of websites that are staunchly against Paul but also give very compelling arguements and list all the contradictions which when seen together makes it virtually impossible to defend Paul. I consider myself a quick learner but even I am at a loss here.

paul only preached what jesus did paul was appointed by Christ to be a apostle to the gentiles us paul knew grace mercy inside and out if salvation by grace is a bit alien . i suggest you do some deep soul searching john 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. paul preached justification declared not guilty just as if we had never sinned. jesus said to be born again the new birth is a spiritual birth grace is the action a divine favor--he forgave us. Jesus gave paul the authority through the Holy spirit acts 1:8 you will get power=authority after the holyghost comes to you.. --paraphrased *** may i ask have you been born again saved by grace through faith ?

 

[ScottA]

This seems to be the one area that I cannot seem to reconcile with people I meet in Christian circles either at Church or lately online. Salvation by grace is a bit alien to me when it is explained in the context of my own conscientious reminders of Jesus' words that I read and pray to in the NT. Not willing to become a Paul basher for bashing sake I obviously continue to be wary of Paul. One Church I visited in the past just preached Corinthians with a sprinkle of Jesus and it made me think.
Does Jesus have more authority in his father's kingdom, than Paul? Of course he does, but without being sucked into the grace vs works debate ....the differences between Jesus and Paul are for me personally, growing exponentially since I came to Jesus for help, guidance and to know his teaching. What are peoples thoughts on what seem like (using a child like comprehension) glaringly obvious contradictions between the two on the subject of Law (Torah observance)?

In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus sets out his fold for whoever wants to see or reach the kingdom, so why do so many people rely on Paul who preached grace!??
Also there are an increasingly growing number of websites that are staunchly against Paul but also give very compelling arguements and list all the contradictions which when seen together makes it virtually impossible to defend Paul. I consider myself a quick learner but even I am at a loss here.

If you stand at the apex of God's plan for all of humanity and look one way, you will see the Last of those born under the law, and if you look the other way, you will see the First born of the spirit of God, both of whom are Christ. Do you see a contradiction there? Indeed, even in Christ.

The contradiction that you have seen, is that apex between the death of the flesh, and the new birth and life of the Spirit. Indeed, death is a contradiction to life.

So, then, it was right that Christ should have come keeping and fulfilling the law unto death, for He was the Last. But also correct that Paul should take up the Spirit, which is life, with Christ whom was the Firstborn, to deliver the world to God the Father by grace - for Christ has overcome the world and conquered death. Thus, there is no condemnation or law against those who are in Christ Jesus, only grace. Nonetheless, there are those who do not receive it.

 

[brakelite]

I think that many come to lose traction at the foundational level of understanding, when they set their hill to die on as being the belief that Israel were not under grace. As if the law given to Israel meant that salvation for them was something to be earned through their obedience. People lose every grip upon the road when they extend that to mean that Christians who love the law are somehow rejecting grace, then they leave the road entirely and drive over the cliff when they conclude that the law and grace are opposites.

 

[Trekson]

Please describe what you believe is the "law of grace."

Hi Lady, I suppose I should have added the word "faith" after grace. Eph. 2:8 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" and John 13:34 - "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." Commandment = Law = Rules to live by = Truth. If there is only one way to accomplish something or one truth it becomes equal to a law, imo. Grace is the only way any of us are saved and of our faith in His grace. We can only love each other the way Christ commanded if we try our best to love others as He did and that can only be done by offering them the same grace (forgiveness) that he gives us when we are wronged or hurt in some way.

 

[Phoneman777]

This seems to be the one area that I cannot seem to reconcile with people I meet in Christian circles either at Church or lately online. Salvation by grace is a bit alien to me when it is explained in the context of my own conscientious reminders of Jesus' words that I read and pray to in the NT. Not willing to become a Paul basher for bashing sake I obviously continue to be wary of Paul. One Church I visited in the past just preached Corinthians with a sprinkle of Jesus and it made me think.
Does Jesus have more authority in his father's kingdom, than Paul? Of course he does, but without being sucked into the grace vs works debate ....the differences between Jesus and Paul are for me personally, growing exponentially since I came to Jesus for help, guidance and to know his teaching. What are peoples thoughts on what seem like (using a child like comprehension) glaringly obvious contradictions between the two on the subject of Law (Torah observance)?

In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus sets out his fold for whoever wants to see or reach the kingdom, so why do so many people rely on Paul who preached grace!??
Also there are an increasingly growing number of websites that are staunchly against Paul but also give very compelling arguements and list all the contradictions which when seen together makes it virtually impossible to defend Paul. I consider myself a quick learner but even I am at a loss here.

I hereby declare you no longer "da newbie" and now a full fledged member of CB "to be enjoyed with all rights, privileges, frequent flier miles, etc., pertaining thereto."

Moving on, Law and Grace is defined simply as this: We're saved by grace through faith, but judged whether we are so by our works - because works are the outward evidence that we've been inwardly saved by grace through faith. Not a single Bible author contradicted this.

The reason there is so much confusion about the relationship between law and grace is because those who do not want to choose between sin and Savior have introduced false means by which they may retain both - call it Once Saved Always Saved, Antinomianism, Calvinism, whatever you wish, but it's all extra-Biblical heretical tactics with which no husband would ever seek to persuade his wife or vise-versa.

 

[Danube]

Ok...here is where I think I might be struggling... so if I am "born in Christ" was this from my mum and dad going back to an unbroken line to Adam.. (flesh/bread & wine/blood = body of Christ aka related by his spirit of truth)..

Or does the spirit have to enter you because you are searching for the truth and that way you either recieve it by "grace" or it never enters you because you were not chosen to recieve the "grace"??

Good people who hold the truth with high esteem and confess Jesus seem to get trodden on and bad people who hate Christ can avoid the Law even by commiting murder and stay alive at the expence of the Good people unharmed and protected by guards... so What is the determining factor of who recieves this "grace"?

Example: while it has been suggested that I might not have recieved his spirit, which I have to consider on the merit of observation, but I continue to keep the commandments and pray and conduct myself well (flee from sin) according to whats been said I might still be lacking "grace"

Paul recieved "grace" but still avoided punishment for overseeing the execution of an early Christian, or avoided the punishment from a sin unto death (also according to Torah observance which Jesus preached) so does that mean that "grace" doesn't or cannot EVER come by your behaviour (good or bad deeds/works) which also can ONLY be judged or determined even measured by the LAW (Torah)?

 

[Ezra]

Ok...here is where I think I might be struggling... so if I am "born in Christ" was this from my mum and dad going back to an unbroken line to Adam.. (flesh/bread & wine/blood = body of Christ aka related by his spirit of truth)..

Or does the spirit have to enter you because you are searching for the truth and that way you either recieve it by "grace" or it never enters you because you were not chosen to recieve the "grace"??

Good people who hold the truth with high esteem and confess Jesus seem to get trodden on and bad people who hate Christ can avoid the Law even by commiting murder and stay alive at the expence of the Good people unharmed and protected by guards... so What is the determining factor of who recieves this "grace"?

Example: while it has been suggested that I might not have recieved his spirit, which I have to consider on the merit of observation, but I continue to keep the commandments and pray and conduct myself well (flee from sin) according to whats been said I might still be lacking "grace"

Paul recieved "grace" but still avoided punishment for overseeing the execution of an early Christian, or avoided the punishment from a sin unto death (also according to Torah observance which Jesus preached).

if you have been truly born again it is of the spirit john 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
for this spiritual birth to happen we must be drawn (much like a magnet )
John 6:43-45 King James Version (KJV)
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me...
honestly if your for real and not sure and are really concerned about being saved having grace having the spirit..my suggestion is you start praying asking God to save you .if you are truly serious and God is dealing with your heart then the Bible says whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD SHALL BE SAVED you then get Grace you also get the Holy spirit that lives in you and will testify your truly saved .

that is about as simple as you can get you can be a good person live good think your living sinless obey the ten commandments .still be lost if you die lost you go to hell

 

[Danube]

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"


Where does the spirit come from?

A: Is the spirit passed onto you unbroken from God to Adam via the same blood (the prophets inc Jesus) to now the present time which is at hand, from your parents (call it a blood inheritence for explanatory ease)?

Or

B: Do you earn it by faith in LAW of God & the Prophets (which still equates to works and deeds being the measure of faith)?

C: By Gods grace (ie chosen for reasons beyond our comprehension like Paul)?

D: Out of guilt or conscience to get right with God?

 

[Ezra]

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

Where does the spirit come from?

A: Is the spirit passed onto you unbroken from God to Adam via the same blood (the prophets inc Jesus) to now the present time which is at hand, from your parents (call it a blood inheritence for explanatory ease)?

Or

B: Do you earn it by faith in LAW of God & the Prophets (which still equates to works and deeds being the measure of faith)?

C: By Gods grace (ie chosen for reasons beyond our comprehension like Paul)?

D: Out of guilt or conscience to get right with God?

first off are you serious about salvation? or are you yanking my chain ? im not playing games jesus left the holy spirit the comforter here for us he lives in us.. i dont mean to be sharp if your serious i will go the last mile.. but if all your doing is asking questions to prove your point im out

 

[Danube]

?? Yes of course. I might just be wary of the water you bring me to. Please do not be offended. Searching for truth here not after a fight!
We are having a conversation, an interesting one at that and I really do not see how I stand to know what "grace" really means unless I can fully explore it with those who profess to know. That is how I learn, I apologise if I make you sharp but remember: Proverbs 27:17

 

[Trekson]

Danube said, "Paul recieved "grace" but still avoided punishment for overseeing the execution of an early Christian, or avoided the punishment from a sin unto death (also according to Torah observance which Jesus preached) so does that mean that "grace" doesn't or cannot EVER come by your behaviour (good or bad deeds/works) which also can ONLY be judged or determined by the LAW (Torah)?"

Two things, first, we are not judged according to our works. Works only determines what our rewards will be at the Bema Seat Judgement of Christ. Second, The punishment for Paul's sins were laid upon Christ at the cross so the penalty has been paid, for him and all the rest of us. Faith in Christ's completion of the law and His sacrifice is what we are judged by and those who accept Him as their personal Savior are all deemed righteous under the blood of the Lamb. When we do face God, what we did or didn't do is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that Christ claims us as His own and that God sees the blood of His Son covering us for all areas in which we may have erred (sinned).

 

[Danube]

Danube said, "Paul recieved "grace" but still avoided punishment for overseeing the execution of an early Christian, or avoided the punishment from a sin unto death (also according to Torah observance which Jesus preached) so does that mean that "grace" doesn't or cannot EVER come by your behaviour (good or bad deeds/works) which also can ONLY be judged or determined by the LAW (Torah)?"

Two things, first, we are not judged according to our works. Works only determines what our rewards will be at the Bema Seat Judgement of Christ. Second, The punishment for Paul's sins were laid upon Christ at the cross so the penalty has been paid, for him and all the rest of us. Faith in Christ's completion of the law and His sacrifice is what we are judged by and those who accept Him as their personal Savior are all deemed righteous under the blood of the Lamb. When we do face God, what we did or didn't do is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that Christ claims us as His own and that God sees the blood of His Son covering us for all areas in which we may have erred (sinned).

I have accepted Jesus as my saviour, so according to you I am saved?
God (not Paul) clearly states you cannot mark your own score card on judgement day so why has Paul convinced so many they can before they stand before him? That is a serious question imho to ask, so I chose to put it before many Christians here. As like you we all have a limited time to find our answers so that we can all be sure in our own minds, I'm not trying to sell religion to anyone, I'm looking for answers...I seek the truth in detail. The scriptures clearly show some will be judged "worse" than a unbeliever, showing us some can confess with their lips to no avail, hence my own personal need to search AND understand/grasp salvation.
I hope your cool with that.
My interpretation as a youngster (perhaps wrong) was our thoughts, works, heart, actions, what we say, how we utilize our talent/skills etcetc EVERYTHING was how we are to be judged, as an adult I am revisiting and questioning my very own beliefs thats it!
When you say we are not judged by our works I (perhaps foolishly) thought you cannot "use" your faith to convince yourself you can continue sinning, because you believe your saved by grace (assurance). Jesus left the woman being accused without the testimony of two of more witnesses (he who is without sin cast the first stone) but he told her to sin no more, that was an instruction that required action on the part of herself to remain sinless, sins being measured by Torah observance (not lip service) hence I revisit my lack of understanding..

 

[Ezra]

?? Yes of course. I might just be wary of the water you bring me to. Please do not be offended. Searching for truth here not after a fight!
We are having a conversation, an interesting one at that and I really do not see how I stand to know what "grace" really means unless I can fully explore it with those who profess to know. That is how I learn, I apologise if I make you sharp but remember: Proverbs 27:17

awww wary of my water i tell you point blank until you have revived the grace of God your not going to understand it.. that water is so pure a new born babe could drink it.. maybe a little salt in your oats would help create a hunger and thirst for righteousness.. i told you how to understand grace when you ask jesus into your heart you get saving grace .we accept it through FAITH
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. that is scripture with living water flowing through it straight from the throne of grace .no strings attached

 

[Ezra]

I have accepted Jesus as my saviour, so according to you I am saved?
God (not Paul) clearly states you cannot mark your owm score card on judgement day so why has Paul convinced so many they can?

what do you mean ..so i take it you have a problem with the apostle paul who was called by Jesus himself on the Damascus road ..is this your problem because every thing paul write is backed up in the 4 gospels