Can the dead communicate with the living?

[quietthinker]

Hello Ragamuffins, Wayfarers, Pilgrims, Bean Counters, Shoe Shiners and any who don't fit these descriptions....Reading these three and a half pages yesterday from the book 'Patriachs and Prophets' chapter 67, Ancient and Modern Sorcery.... I thought it was well presented and would like to share it with you.

“The Scripture account of Saul’s visit to the woman of Endor has been a source of perplexity to many students of the Bible. There are some who take the position that Samuel was actually present at the interview with Saul, but the Bible itself furnishes sufficient ground for a contrary conclusion. If, as claimed by some, Samuel was in heaven, he must have been summoned thence, either by the power of God or by that of Satan. None can believe for a moment that Satan had power to call the holy prophet of God from heaven to honor the incantations of an abandoned woman. Nor can we conclude that God summoned him to the witch’s cave; for the Lord had already refused to communicate with Saul, by dreams, by Urim, or by prophets. 1 Samuel 28:6. These were God’s own appointed mediums of communication, and He did not pass them by to deliver the message through the agent of Satan.

The message itself is sufficient evidence of its origin. Its object was not to lead Saul to repentance, but to urge him on to ruin; and this is not the work of God, but of Satan.
Furthermore, the act of Saul in consulting a sorceress is cited in Scripture as one reason why he was rejected by God and abandoned to destruction: “Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; and inquired not of the Lord: therefore He slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.” 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14. Here it is distinctly stated that Saul inquired of the familiar spirit, not of the Lord. He did not communicate with Samuel, the prophet of God; but through the sorceress he held intercourse with Satan. Satan could not present the real Samuel, but he did present a counterfeit, that served his purpose of deception.......cont.

 

[quietthinker]

Nearly all forms of ancient sorcery and witchcraft were founded upon a belief in communion with the dead. Those who practiced the arts of necromancy claimed to have intercourse with departed spirits, and to obtain through them a knowledge of future events. This custom of consulting the dead is referred to in the prophecy of Isaiah: “When they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?” Isaiah 8:19.

This same belief in communion with the dead formed the cornerstone of heathen idolatry. The gods of the heathen were believed to be the deified spirits of departed heroes. Thus the religion of the heathen was a worship of the dead. This is evident from the Scriptures. In the account of the sin of Israel at Bethpeor, it is stated: “Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor.' Numbers 25:1-3. The psalmist tells us to what kind of gods these sacrifices were offered. Speaking of the same apostasy of the Israelites, he says, “They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead” (Psalm 106:28); that is, sacrifices that had been offered to the dead.
The deification of the dead has held a prominent place in nearly every system of heathenism, as has also the supposed communion with the dead. The gods were believed to communicate their will to men, and also, when consulted, to give them counsel. Of this character were the famous oracles of Greece and Rome.

The belief in communion with the dead is still held, even in professedly Christian lands. Under the name of spiritualism the practice of communicating with beings claiming to be the spirits of the departed has become widespread. It is calculated to take hold of the sympathies of those who have laid their loved ones in the grave. Spiritual beings sometimes appear to persons in the form of their deceased friends, and relate incidents connected with their lives and perform acts which they performed while living. In this way they lead men to believe that their dead friends are angels, hovering over them and communicating with them. Those who thus assume to be the spirits of the departed are regarded with a certain idolatry, and with many their word has greater weight than the word of God.

There are many, however, who regard spiritualism as a mere imposture. The manifestations by which it supports its claims to a supernatural character are attributed to fraud on the part of the medium. But while it is true that the results of trickery have often been palmed off as genuine manifestations, there have also been marked evidences of supernatural power. And many who reject spiritualism as the result of human skill or cunning will, when confronted with manifestations which they cannot account for upon this ground, be led to acknowledge its claims.
Modern spiritualism and the forms of ancient witchcraft and idol worship—all having communion with the dead as their vital principle—are founded upon that first lie by which Satan beguiled Eve in Eden: “Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, ... ye shall be as gods.” Genesis 3:4, 5. Alike based upon falsehood and perpetuating the same, they are alike from the father of lies.”.......... cont.

 

[quietthinker]

“The Hebrews were expressly forbidden to engage in any manner in pretended communion with the dead. God closed this door effectually when He said: “The dead know not anything.... Neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.” Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6. “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Psalm 146:4. And the Lord declared to Israel: “The soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set My face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.” Leviticus 20:6.
The “familiar spirits” were not the spirits of the dead, but evil angels, the messengers of Satan. Ancient idolatry, which, as we have seen, comprises both worship of the dead and pretended communion with them, is declared by the Bible to have been demon worship. The apostle Paul, in warning his brethren against participating, in any manner, in the idolatry of their heathen neighbors, says, “The things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God, and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.” 1 Corinthians 10:20. The psalmist, speaking of Israel, says that “they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,” and in the next verse he explains that they sacrificed them “unto the idols of Canaan.” Psalm 106:37, 38. In their supposed worship of dead men they were in reality worshiping demons.

Modern spiritualism, resting upon the same foundation, is but a revival in a new form of the witchcraft and demon worship that God condemned and prohibited of old. It is foretold in the Scriptures, which declare that “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.” 1 Timothy 4:1. Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, points to the special working of Satan in spiritualism as an event to take place immediately before the second advent of Christ. Speaking of Christ’s second coming, he declares that it is “after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9. And Peter, describing the dangers to which the church was to be exposed in the last days, says that as there were false prophets who led Israel into sin, so there will be false teachers, “who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them.... And many shall follow their pernicious ways.” 2 Peter 2:1, 2. Here the apostle has pointed out one of the marked characteristics of spiritualist teachers. They refuse to acknowledge Christ as the Son of God. Concerning such teachers the beloved John declares: “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.” 1 John 2:22, 23. Spiritualism, by denying Christ, denies both the Father and the Son, and the Bible pronounces it the manifestation of antichrist.

By the prediction of Saul’s doom, given through the woman of Endor, Satan planned to ensnare the people of Israel. He hoped that they would be inspired with confidence in the sorceress, and would be led to consult her. Thus they would turn from God as their counselor and would place themselves under the guidance of Satan. The lure by which spiritualism attracts the multitudes is its pretended power to draw aside the veil from the future and reveal to men what God has hidden. God has in His word opened before us the great events of the future—all that it is essential for us to know—and He has given us a safe guide for our feet amid all its perils; but it is Satan’s purpose to destroy men’s confidence in God, to make them dissatisfied with their condition in life, and to lead them to seek a knowledge of what God has wisely veiled from them, and to despise what He has revealed in His Holy Word......cont.

 

[quietthinker]

.....
There are many who become restless when they cannot know the definite outcome of affairs. They cannot endure uncertainty, and in their impatience they refuse to wait to see the salvation of God. Apprehended evils drive them nearly distracted. They give way to their rebellious feelings, and run hither and thither in passionate grief, seeking intelligence concerning that which has not been revealed. If they would but trust in God, and watch unto prayer, they would find divine consolation. Their spirit would be calmed by communion with God. The weary and the heavy-laden would find rest unto their souls if they would only go to Jesus; but when they neglect the means that God has ordained for their comfort, and resort to other sources, hoping to learn what God has withheld, they commit the error of Saul, and thereby gain only a knowledge of evil.............."

That's it

 

[Giuliano]

Hello All....reading these three and a half pages yesterday from the book 'Patriachs and Prophets' Chapter 67, Ancient and Modern Sorcery.... I thought it was well presented and would like to share it with you.

“The Scripture account of Saul’s visit to the woman of Endor has been a source of perplexity to many students of the Bible. There are some who take the position that Samuel was actually present at the interview with Saul, but the Bible itself furnishes sufficient ground for a contrary conclusion. If, as claimed by some, Samuel was in heaven, he must have been summoned thence, either by the power of God or by that of Satan. None can believe for a moment that Satan had power to call the holy prophet of God from heaven to honor the incantations of an abandoned woman. Nor can we conclude that God summoned him to the witch’s cave; for the Lord had already refused to communicate with Saul, by dreams, by Urim, or by prophets. 1 Samuel 28:6. These were God’s own appointed mediums of communication, and He did not pass them by to deliver the message through the agent of Satan.

The message itself is sufficient evidence of its origin. Its object was not to lead Saul to repentance, but to urge him on to ruin; and this is not the work of God, but of Satan.
Furthermore, the act of Saul in consulting a sorceress is cited in Scripture as one reason why he was rejected by God and abandoned to destruction: “Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; and inquired not of the Lord: therefore He slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.” 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14. Here it is distinctly stated that Saul inquired of the familiar spirit, not of the Lord. He did not communicate with Samuel, the prophet of God; but through the sorceress he held intercourse with Satan. Satan could not present the real Samuel, but he did present a counterfeit, that served his purpose of deception.......cont.

Uh, the Bible says it was Samuel. It was a "part" of Samuel that should have permitted to rest until the resurrection.

 

[Brakelite]

Uh, the Bible says it was Samuel. It was a "part" of Samuel that should have permitted to rest until the resurrection.

So either Satan has the power to raise the dead, or God used a witch to talk to someone He refused to talk to through righteous channels. Which one you plumping for?

 

[Enoch111]

The message itself is sufficient evidence of its origin. Its object was not to lead Saul to repentance, but to urge him on to ruin; and this is not the work of God, but of Satan.

Satan does not have the power to bring people out of Sheol (where Samuel was resting). In this particular case God allowed Samuel to come out of Sheol (ascending out of the earth) and go to Saul (in spite of the evil circumstances), and Samuel did have a prophetic message for Saul from God.

The witch of Endor herself was surprised at what happened, since she had planned to have an evil (familiar) spirit pretend that it was Samuel. Spiritism or Spiritualism is in fact evil spirits pretending to be dead loved ones. However in this case it was the spirit of Samuel that appeared to Saul.

 

[Giuliano]

So either Satan has the power to raise the dead, or God used a witch to talk to someone He refused to talk to through righteous channels. Which one you plumping for?

Neither. Put the question another way: If people go to Heaven when they die, why will they be resurrected later?

Samuel's spirit was not in the grave. Something of his soul was, however; and the soul is not as simple as some might think. There is a part of the soul that rarely (and I do mean rarely) completely purified -- the way is indeed strait and narrow, and very few find it. That part of the soul can lie asleep in the vicinity of the body. It can lie asleep inside the body. If too much blood is lost or if the body is chopped into bits and pieces, that part of the soul can be permanently damaged. If you killed someone and wanted to put this soul out of existence, you could cut him up and feed him to animals. If blood was shed on land, that land became unclean and unfit for farming as the law of Moses dictated.

The life is in the blood, and after death of the body, it takes a while for the soul to withdraw -- and some parts may while other parts don't. Do not confuse spirit with the various parts of the soul.

Prior to the Cross, the souls of most people "slept" completely somewhere in the vicinity of their decayed bodies. That changed after the crucifixion when the "bodies" of the saints came out of their graves. That was not physical bodies -- that was their soulish bodies, for the shape of a soul takes on the shape of the body. Thus a soul can be perceived (using spiritual sight) as a body. Note that only the living saints saw those "resurrected" saints. Josephus loved to report on miraculous things, but he didn't report it. No, that's because only the righteous living saints could see them. It would have been wrong for those "sleeping saints" to come out of their graves and show up to sinners -- you have to override some things to do it, and it would be wrong anyway. Thus we see Jesus himself appeared only to believers after his resurrection. For one thing, it's not violating the free will of a living saint to give him spiritual sight either temporarily or permanently.

You are at a disadvantage here, Backlit. First of all, your understanding is based solely on books. That kind of understanding doesn't cut it. It's like someone reading a book on car repair, thinking he understands it all when he's never even seen a car let alone looked under the hood of one. Terms need to be defined. If you define a word wrong, you can think you understand something; but your definitions of the words are wrong. I have an advantage there. Even as a child, I was aware once of what a "dead person" was doing or thinking. I was outside playing one day and suddenly I sensed my grandmother up above me, looking down to see how I was doing. No one taught me to believe that sort of thing. In fact, I didn't tell my parents since I knew they wouldn't believe me. Over the years, my grandmother kept watching -- and she stopped at one point when all her children were safe and sound. So I haven't seen or heard from her in decades, but I know she's safe and sound herself.

When I stopped being a Christian, I was in a cemetery with a friend visiting the grave of someone who had been murdered. My friend wondered where this woman was, so I allowed my mind to reach out to see if I could contact her. I got a very sharp response! I had disturbed "something" I should not have. Her "soul" was not sleeping, it was not in the ground. It was in another body and she was doing fine. She told me to let her alone. I did.

I knew how she felt. It had happened to me when I was a child. Again one day I was outside playing when I sensed someone was above me looking for me. It was very, very strange, since I knew she was looking for me but she was convinced I was "someone else." I knew I was the person she was looking for. That left me thinking maybe I was adopted, that really I was this other person and my parents had lied to me. You bet I didn't tell them about this experience either. It took decades for me to understand what had happened. I had been that "other person" -- and trust me, I did not want to believe I had been him. I resisted the idea until I found out the date he died, the date I was born and then checked up on some of the circumstance of my birth. I finally admitted I had been him. Then I read some books that mentioned him and found out my wife had dabbled in things with a medium. I can only assume she got that medium to go find me. She found me, but it confused me, and my guess is she was shocked herself to find out I got into another body so quickly. She thought she'd be summoning someone "from the other side."

Decades later, she started visiting me when I was asleep. She didn't harm me, she just liked to come be around, so I didn't mind although she pulled a few tricks to let me know she was there -- like playing with the display on the VCR. I had other people move in; and I moved to another room and the woman who moved in took my old bedroom. She told me one morning, something had frightened her -- "something" was in the room caressing her or feeling her body. It took me about five seconds to figure that out. "That's my wife from my past life," I told her. "She likes to visit me at night sometimes. I never felt her feeling my body, that surprises me; but we must have confused her by switching rooms. She came looking for me and found you. It shouldn't happen again." It didn't. My wife that lifetime would never want to upset someone like that.

Okay, so what happened when my wife finally died? She found peace in a way she hadn't when alive. I haven't heard from her since; but I know for sure she's fine.

What I will point out is that the Bible says it was Samuel. If that doesn't fit in with your set of beliefs, you need to decide which you believe more: Your preconceived ideas based solely on the teachings of spiritually deaf and blind people -- or the Bible? I can tell you where I stand: The Bible is right. I can also tell you from direct experience that I annoyed a "dead person" once. I understand why Samuel was annoyed.

Have you ever met anyone who saw "elohim" rising up out of the earth? To be honest, I'm not sure what the necromancer was seeing since "elohim" could mean different things; but I know for sure that there are entities (I don't know what to call them) that are asleep now in the earth. They didn't seem like souls of people to me, but then I never talked to one. I was out driving one day and praying when suddenly I started seeing small brown entities vaguely shaped like humans rising up out of the ground around me. I knew it was a good thing they were coming out, and I knew God had done it in response to my prayer -- but I didn't understand it. I still don't; but I am confident that Satan lost some influence that day. I didn't see them returning to the Light, but I think they did.

Aspects of the soul can behave in emotional ways too. We can see how the part of Samuel that was asleep in the earth still had an attachment to Hannah. He was wearing a mantle. Of course, the mantle his mother had given him would have been too small for an adult; but that part of Samuel retained a love for his mother and the mantle she had given him. (KJV translates it as "little coat" in one place and "mantle" in another.) It was Samuel. The mantle shows it.

 

[quietthinker]

So either Satan has the power to raise the dead, or God used a witch to talk to someone He refused to talk to through righteous channels. Which one you plumping for?

What Saul saw was an apparition....a manifestation of a demon masquerading as Samuel.....the scripture is clear on that....that is why Israel was forbidden to have anything to do with wizards, soothsayers, diviners or those who claim to conjure up the dead on pain of death.

 

[quietthinker]

Satan does not have the power to bring people out of Sheol (where Samuel was resting). In this particular case God allowed Samuel to come out of Sheol (ascending out of the earth) and go to Saul (in spite of the evil circumstances), and Samuel did have a prophetic message for Saul from God.

The witch of Endor herself was surprised at what happened, since she had planned to have an evil (familiar) spirit pretend that it was Samuel. Spiritism or Spiritualism is in fact evil spirits pretending to be dead loved ones. However in this case it was the spirit of Samuel that appeared to Saul.

Your main explanation Enoch is not consistent with the biblical narrative.

 

[Giuliano]

What Saul saw was an apparition....a manifestation of a demon masquerading as Samuel.....the scripture is clear on that....that is why Israel was forbidden to have anything to do with wizards, soothsayers, diviners or those who claim to conjure up the dead on pain of death.

You can say it's clear, but the Bible says it was Samuel. Four times.

1 Samuel 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

Was she right that Saul had deceived her? Yes. Could she have been mistaken thinking it was Samuel? Maybe, maybe not.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

So Saul "perceived" too it was Samuel. Could he have been mistaken? Maybe, maybe not. The next two verses say it was Samuel speaking.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

Maybe you should change your beliefs which seem to be something you were taught by men.

 

[quietthinker]

You can say it's clear, but the Bible says it was Samuel. Four times.

This is the context....the scripture says it was Samuel because Saul thought it was Samuel...... Because Saul thought it was Samuel didn't make it Samuel.

again.....context is critical......without it one can make pigs fly.

 

[Giuliano]

This is the context....the scripture says it was Samuel because Saul thought it was Samuel...... Because Saul thought it was Samuel didn't make it Samuel.

again.....context is critical......without it one can make pigs fly.

Your line of reasoning is flawed. You are adding "context" which doesn't exist. Yes, the Bible indicates that the medium and Saul both perceived it was Samuel; and yes, they could have been wrong. But what follows clears that up. It was Samuel. The Bible does not present stories that aren't true based on what someone believed. You are saying the Bible is wrong because Saul was wrong. Saul didn't write that passage.

I find it remarkable too that you would think an evil spirit would tell Saul the truth.

According to your way of thinking, it would be okay for the book of Acts to call Stephen a blasphemer since other people said he was.

 

[Enoch111]

Your main explanation Enoch is not consistent with the biblical narrative.

Go ahead and show us the inconsistency. My explanation lines up perfectly with the prophecy regarding Saul, which only Samuel could have delivered. God does not use evil spirits to convey his messages. And Samuel is clearly identified as Samuel. Samuel had previously told Saul that his kingdom would be taken away from him, so he reiterates that here:

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

What did Samuel mean by this? "...and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me.." Was it not a confirmation that Saul and his sons would die at the hands of the Philistines the next day, and their souls and spirits would join him in Sheol (the region of departed souls)?

Of course, since you don't believe in Sheol (having been taught that it is the grave), you will have a hard time with this. But if Sheol was the grave, then Saul and his sons would enter into Samuel's grave. A TOTAL ABSURDITY!

 

[quietthinker]

Your line of reasoning is flawed. You are adding "context" which doesn't exist. Yes, the Bible indicates that the medium and Saul both perceived it was Samuel; and yes, they could have been wrong. But what follows clears that up. It was Samuel. The Bible does not present stories that aren't true based on what someone believed. You are saying the Bible is wrong because Saul was wrong. Saul didn't write that passage.

I find it remarkable too that you would think an evil spirit would tell Saul the truth.

According to your way of thinking, it would be okay for the book of Acts to call Stephen a blasphemer since other people said he was.

Your logic is muddled Giuliano.

There is no consciousness in death. The scripture is unequivocal about that.
Your view assumes the dead are not dead......herein is a fatal error which seeks to justify itself.

Deception always has an element of truth.....that's how the shenanigans are pulled off. If deception didn't have a plausible element it wouldn't be deception but just an outright lie too easily recognised.

 

[quietthinker]

Go ahead and show us the inconsistency. My explanation lines up perfectly with the prophecy regarding Saul, which only Samuel could have delivered. God does not use evil spirits to convey his messages. And Samuel is clearly identified as Samuel. Samuel had previously told Saul that his kingdom would be taken away from him, so he reiterates that here:

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

What did Samuel mean by this? "...and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me.." Was it not a confirmation that Saul and his sons would die at the hands of the Philistines the next day, and their souls and spirits would join him in Sheol (the region of departed souls)?

Of course, since you don't believe in Sheol (having been taught that it is the grave), you will have a hard time with this. But if Sheol was the grave, then Saul and his sons would enter into Samuel's grave. A TOTAL ABSURDITY!

This is not Samuel talking Enoch, this is the apparition talking the which Saul thought was Samuel. Get the CONTEXT.

 

[Giuliano]

Your logic is muddled Giuliano.

There is no consciousness in death. The scripture is unequivocal about that.

It depends on the state of the soul.

Your view assumes the dead are not dead......herein is a fatal error which seeks to justify itself.

It may depend on what you're talking about when you say someone is dead. When Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, the disciples didn't understand what he meant until he said he was "dead." So tell me, was Jesus lying or mistaken earlier?

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Yet later, Jesus said he had died.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

It depends on what you're talking about. Lazarus' body had died; but Jesus wasn't talking about that when he said his sickness was not unto death.

Deception always has an element of truth.....that's how the shenanigans are pulled off. If deception didn't have a plausible element it wouldn't be deception but just an outright lie too easily recognised.

Just an element? What deception got pulled on Saul? I'd say Samuel told him the truth and nothing but the truth. He also reprimanded him for his misdeeds -- highly unlikely for an evil spirit to do that.

So what does "dead" mean? There are some people walking around in bodies that are alive; but spiritually they are dead. Assuredly when their bodies die, there will be no remembrance of anything for them. They're already dead and know nothing at all. They are like brute beasts and will die like the beasts.

 

[quietthinker]

It may depend on what you're talking about when you say someone is dead. When Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, the disciples didn't understand what he meant until he said he was "dead." So tell me, was Jesus lying or mistaken earlier?

The word 'sleep' is used as death as we understand it now. 'Sleep' is used because all will be resurrected at some stage. 'Death' in the final sense of the word for the wicked will occur after the final judgement. Scripture refers to this as the 'second death'

Those resurrected to eternal life when Jesus returns as Lazarus will be will not be partakers of the second death. The second death is not described as a sleep but a final annihilation of sin and sinners.

Just an element? What deception got pulled on Saul? I'd say Samuel told him the truth and nothing but the truth. He also reprimanded him for his misdeeds -- highly unlikely for an evil spirit to do that.

Not unlikely at all.

So what does "dead" mean? There are some people walking around in bodies that are alive; but spiritually they are dead. Assuredly when their bodies die, there will be no remembrance of anything for them. They're already dead and know nothing at all. They are like brute beasts and will die like the beasts.

Dead means without life. If you don't understand that or unwilling to understand it you are in very murky waters.

 

[Giuliano]

The word 'sleep' is used as death as we understand it now. 'Sleep' is used because all will be resurrected at some stage.

So did Lazarus die or not? Jesus said the sickness was no unto death, but then he died.

'Death' in the final sense of the word for the wicked will occur after the final judgement. Scripture refers to this as the 'second death'

Those resurrected to eternal life when Jesus returns as Lazarus will be will not be partakers of the second death. The second death is not described as a sleep but a final annihilation of sin and sinners.


Not unlikely at all.


Dead means without life. If you don't understand that or unwilling to understand it you are in very murky waters.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?​

How can a dead person believe in Jesus? And if the believer never dies, why would he need to be resurrected?

 

[quietthinker]

So did Lazarus die or not? Jesus said the sickness was no unto death, but then he died.

Yes, Lazarus was dead, Jesus qualified it in John 11:13-14....read the whole story in John 11:1-44

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
How can a dead person believe in Jesus? And if the believer never dies, why would he need to be resurrected?

Giuliano...I cannot believe your ignorance on this matter. In the first instance Jesus is talking of a believer who has died.

Vs 25 + 26....here Jesus is using the word 'dead' and 'die' in the sense that he qualified sleep earlier mentioned. John 11:13-14

Re my reference to your ignorance....with respect Giuliano, your response is a good example of how an incorrect understanding blinds the mind even when the evidence of the information is right before you!