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Can the Law save us?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Hobie, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Here is something which I posted years ago but is a great illustration on how the Law works...

    Jesus used parables to explain things plainly so the people could understand, and I was struck as I worked on my fence one morning, by how the fence was like Gods law, and I thought I would share it. Of all the animals, none have given me more grief than my goats. When I first got them, they were a few weeks old and I put up a fence to keep them safe from the various panthers, bears, bobcats and other wildlife that share the woods with us. The fence was more of a marker for the goats as they soon learned to go under it and wander out in the woods were dangers lurked. They got out and indulged in all their little goat desires and ate lantana and other things which wasnt good for them, then at night they would come home through the front gate and lay on the warm hood of my car or the top, causing me great grief. Then I lost some of them from bloating from what they ate and to wildlife, so I did everything I could to save them from the real dangers in the woods. I put a second fence around them so they were in sight of the house so I could go get them if they got out. I sank the bottom of the fence deeper, but they jumped over it. I made the fence higher, so they stood on top of stumps or logs so they could get over it. I told my wife we would have to get rid of the goats because they would not stay within the fence, so she said to let her try.

    She went and sat with them and gave them alfalfa hay to clear out their tummys of the bad stuff they had picked up. She talked to them and rubbed their bellies when they were sick and gave them charcoal for the bloating. Soon the goats stopped jumping the fence and waited for my wife in their pen, and let her hold them and clean their fur or between their horns as that is the one place they cant reach. Now they listen for her voice and come running when she calls and sit with her and listen to her little goat stories she tells them.

    Something happened that changed the goats, I couldnt put my finger on it but on one thing I was clear, the fence didnt save them from the dangers. Did it help, yes as far as it delineated the cleared land of the farm and their little goat pen where it was safe. But somehow the goats changed in their little goat desires and behavior and they no longer wanted to jump the fence and leave the farm, but instead to stay within the safety of the fence and share their happiness with someone who loves them......
     
  2. Willie T

    Willie T Heaven Sent Staff Member

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    Can God's law grant us Salvation? Of course not. It was never intended to.
    But, following the laws God gave man can sure save mankind (and especially this nation) from the mistaken path toward self-destruction that we have been charging down for decades. That is what most of those laws were intended for in the first place.
     
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  3. breathoflife

    breathoflife New Member

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    Hi willie t, how does 1 Cor. 15:55-56 factor into this? If it is as teaches the power sin uses to become utterly sinful isn’t the Law like throwing gas on the fire of sin? We live in a nation of laws and have the largest prison system in the world is none of this drawing its power from law, God’s and men’s laws? If not why?

    ‘the Law we are told is the power of sin and we are told the Lord nailed the Law to His cross and in doing so col. 2, He disarmed the powers of darkness who had armed themselves with God’s holy, righteous and good Law. So the Lord fulfilled the Written Law and placed those who now live in His kingdom under the Royal Law of the kingdom as expressed in the Beatitudes. This is the only Law that we are to live under. The Royal Law of Love.’ The Law is fulfilled by Love and Love in action is called Grace.
     
  4. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    The ten Northern tribes of Israel were exiled from their Land because they did not keep the Laws, as given to them through Moses. At present, in their dispersion, it is not a requirement that they keep the whole Law, only at least the ten Commandments. Hosea 9:1-7, Deuteronomy 28:64 Prophecy clearly states that after their return to the Holy Land, the Israelites, now every born again Christian, will then go back to observance of the Law. Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48.

    Ezekiel 16:1-52..Your father was a Amorite and your mother was a Hittite...
    The Lord says to Judah: Your sisters, Samaria and Sodom, never behaved as badly as you and your daughters have done. They grew proud and committed abominations, then I swept them away, as you know, but you are worse than them – you make your sisters look innocent! Now, you must bear your shame and humiliation.

    This passage is a graphic allegory of the ‘adulteries’, that is the idol worship, of Judah: the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and of Samaria: the ten Northern tribes of Israel and of Sodom: the peoples to the South of Judah.

    Ezekiel 16:53-59 I shall restore the fortunes of Sodom and Samaria and will restore you too, Judah at the same time. When you all rejoin, you will bear your shame and be disgraced for your iniquities. You were contemptuous of your sisters in the days of your pride and now the nations around you despise you. You, Judah must bear the consequences of your abominable conduct. The Lord says: I shall treat you as you deserve, because you violated an oath and made light of our Covenant.

    Ezekiel 16:60-63 But I shall call to mind the Covenant that I made with you when you were young and will establish a new Covenant that will last forever. You will be ashamed when you receive your sisters, the elder and the younger. They will join you, but not on the basis of My Covenant with you. When I have pardoned you, you will remember and be so ashamed and humiliated that you will never open your mouth again. Jer. 3:11
    Ref: REB, NIV, KJV.


    The Jewish sages [Moshkovitz, Malbim and Abarbanel] say that the ‘sister’ peoples will be the most important part of the new Israelite nation after they all return and Judah will be subservient to Joseph. ‘Not by their Covenant’, means that the ten tribes will not convert to Judaism, but the Jews must become Christian. Jeremiah 12:14 They will be given true priests for the correct instruction in the Law and ordinances. Malachi 3:1-5

    All over the world amongst some Christians there is an arousal in the direction of returning to ‘Hebrew roots’, meaning adopting Biblical injunctions and customs. This attempt to observe the Old Testament Laws sometimes takes the form of imitating aspects of Judaism, or applying their own innovations by a personal interpretation of what Scripture says. This movement of trying to ‘do Torah’, is especially noticeable among people who are identified as comprised to a significant degree as descendants of the ‘Lost ten Tribes’. The phenomenon of this searching for their Hebrew roots, seems to show an instinctive arousal amongst “Joseph”, and can be seen as a sign of the impending redemption of all Israel.

    While the ‘Return to Hebrew roots’, is a positive sign of the times, just how far should a person who realizes their Israelite ancestry, go? The obligations of Joseph in our times should include; Justice, Honesty, Prayer and fasting, Bible study, being a good example to others, doing good works, no sexual immorality, no substance abuse, and read carefully what the prophets tell us about our future. 1 Peter 4:7

    Legally, the onus of proof is on the claimant. Proof is required that another person has an obligation. This means that even if physically someone is descended from Israel or Judah, they cannot be obligated unless there is legal proof of that. We can only look forward the great Day, when the Lord will reveal exactly who His people are, their redemption and gathering into the Promised Land.
     
  5. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    I gotta say, I really cannot imagine anyone being ultimately saved, that is in heaven,iff they aren't obedient to God's laws.
    Now some smart Alec will ask, which laws? To which I reply, work it out for yourself. Of you obey too many, , no harm. If you obey too few, you need to talk to Jesus. Don't ask me what commandments you need to obey, ask the one whose commandments they are.
    But there is a group in Revelation 12 and 14 described as being saved, and they keep God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus. And later on revelation tells us that those who keep God's commandments are most assuredly not murderers, liars,adulterers , or thieves. Do you really want to risk going through life ignoring God's commandments?
     
  6. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Without law there is chaos...does chaos save anyone? Grace is found WITHIN the law of God....not outside of it. God IS love but He MAKES laws to help keep order and the possibility of salvation for us. Law is escape from the random chaos of events.
     
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  7. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    God sure does always seem to have our own best interests for this life, as well as the life to come. If only we would listen to Him and follow His ways...we are a heart headed people.
    His thou shalt's and thou shalt not's are solely for our own good! ❤
     
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  8. breathoflife

    breathoflife New Member

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    why is it do those who claim Law is the way the Lord intended His people to live always claim it is the written Law from Sinai instead of the spirit of the Law as given in the Beatitudes. Why do those who would have us live by the written Law claim that we who hear our Good Shepherd call us to the highest form of His Law are really advocating for no law.

    A few of the things that are a problem staying under the written Law:
    married to the Law prevents us from living for Christ and being His Bride ro. 7
    Written law was designed by God to allow sin to become utterly sinful. Not for men to control sin.
    The Law was “added” Meaning laid alongside side of not combined. The law was given 430 years after Abraham.
    Lord nailed to His cross disarming powers of darkness.
    Powers of darkness armed themselves with the Law in Garden of Eden.
    Law was designed by God to lead men to the Lord and then to be ended.
    Grace is now our teacher teaching us to say no to unrighteousness as we wait for the return of the Lord
    The righteous will live by faith and the written Law is not of faith.
    Power of sin 1 co. 15:55-56
    Nailed to cross. Col. 2
    Galatians the Written Law perverts the Good News. Pervert means turning the Good News to go in the exact opposite direction of good news

    Anyone of these should be enough to warn us away from remaining under written Law. The fact that the powers of darkness armed themselves with God’s written Law is astounding. Where did they arm themselves with the Law? In the Garden of Eden. The knowledge of good and evil which can only be given by the Law revealing what is sin. That which the Lord commanded they should not take for themselves.
    Not a world without Law men living under the highest form of Law Love.
     
  9. Willie T

    Willie T Heaven Sent Staff Member

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    I assume you have read some of the 613 laws the Jews were to live by? Of course we consider some of them to be a bit "nutty", but a huge portion of them pertained to doing honest and respectful business with others, interaction in the family, health matters, etc. It is these that I think most people address.
     
  10. breathoflife

    breathoflife New Member

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    Hi, don’t get me wrong the Law is holy, righteous and good. There is no doubt but the problem is not the Law it’s our flesh. The flesh uses the opportunity the Law opens for sin to go completely sinful. To me it is like trying to put out a fire by throwing gas on it. Where we differ is how do we put it out. We are on the same team trying to be pleasing to Him and I am happy to have passionate people on the Lord’s side. God bless
     
  11. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    I shall set My Laws in your hearts…. Hebrews 8:10
    This verse from the New Testament, is a quote from the O.T. –

    Jeremiah 31:31-34The days are coming when I shall set My Laws within them, writing them on their hearts…

    New Testament teaching says we Christians are now under the New Covenant, the Old is obsolete: Hebrews 8:10-13. However, it is fairly obvious that this prophecy of how God’s Laws will be set into our hearts has not yet been fulfilled. The great prophecies in Ezekiel chapters 20, 36 and 37 tell us when, how and why this will happen:

    Ezekiel 20:39-44 Now, you Israelites, [Scattered among the nations as at present, but now identified as every true Christian person. Romans 9:8] go and serve your idols. But in days to come, I shall punish you for your disobedience to Me and no more will you desecrate My holy Name with your idolatries. But after I have gathered you into the Land of Israel, you will serve Me and the nations will witness it. You will know that I am the Lord, [BEFORE the Return of Jesus, Ezekiel 34:30] when I bring you back to the Land that I swore to give to your forebears and you will despise your old evil ways and follow only My Commandments. You will know that the Lord has done this for you, not for your sake, but for the honour of His holy Name.

    Ezekiel 36:1-7the enemy boasts: The ancient heights of Israel are ours. [the current situation] Therefore the Lord says: The mountains of Israel, now occupied by other peoples and plundered and despoiled by them, so I will act in the heat of My anger against those Edomite peoples who have seized My Land as spoil. [Edom: the descendants of Esau, now identified as the Islamic peoples.] Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 30:2-5

    This will be the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, an event extensively prophesied throughout the Bible – a literal Day of fire from the sun, earthquakes, tsunamis and powerful storms. All of the world will be affected, but the full force of this disaster will hit the Middle East, virtually depopulating the entire area.


    These are the great promises of our redemption and the great gathering:

    Ezekiel 37:11-14 The Lord said: These bones are the whole people of Israel, [every Christian person] They say: Our bones are dry, [spiritually bereft] our hope is gone [Acts 26:6-7] and we are cut off. [separated from the holy Land] Prophesy, therefore, the Lord God has said: My people, I shall bring you out of your graves, [your dead spiritual condition] I shall put My spirit into you, redeem and purify you, then I shall settle you into your heritage. Ezekiel 30:11-26, Ezekiel 20:34-38

    Ezekiel 36:24-28 The Lord says: I am going to take the Israelites from where they are among the nations, I shall assemble them from every location and bring them to their homeland. I shall purify them from everything that defiles them, give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them. I shall place My spirit in My people, they will conform to My statutes and observe My Laws faithfully. THEN they will live in the holy Land that I gave to their forebears, they will be My people and I will be their God.

    Isaiah 51:1-2We Christians belong to the Seed from Abraham. Galatians 3:26-29

    So, the sequence of events is: first, the great Day of the Lord’s wrath, next His people are gathered and purified, then they are settled into all of the holy Land. About 10-12 years later, Jesus will Return for His Millennium reign.
     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    The actual Scripture says, "handwriting of ordinances". In the Greek it's where we get our English word 'dogma' from. It's about the ceremonial laws. It doesn't mean God's laws dealing with judgments, commandments (like the Ten Commandments), statutes, etc., were done away with. Those laws were still established in Christian society early in Christian history, laws against murder, adultery, rape, thefts, perjury, etc. Many of those laws are still in effect in western society today.

    It's important to understand that what our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross that was against us, involved the old covenant requirements in ordinances (religious dogma). We are still to love thy neighbor as thyself, which was a commandment in the law originally given in Leviticus 19. There's still laws involving protection of property, etc., that are on books in modern society. So thinking that all of God's laws in toto was done away with by our Lord Jesus is just complete Biblical ignorance.
     
  13. breathoflife

    breathoflife New Member

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    I don’t want to argue with you. Romans 7 to be married to the Law keeps us from living for Christ and prevents us from being married to Christ. The covenant of Moses was added, placed alongside of the Abrahamic covenant like to tracks placed alongside each other never meant to be combined. The Law was to bring men to Christ at which time we were no longer under the supervision of the Law we are then to live under Grace which teaches us to say no to unrighteousness during this time as we wait the return of our Lord.
    I don’t know why you need to attack this is a difference of understanding what Paul meant when he wrote the Law is the power sin draws from to become utterly sinful. That is called cause and effect.
    Why do you misrepresent my position claiming I said the Law has been taken away leaving a vacuum where there is nothing but lawlessness when my claim is exactly what Paul teaches over and over. . The written Law is given to the unredeemed. The redeemed now live under the royal law of love. You may want to check out what A Christians life as living under the royal law of the kingdom is it is totally opposite than what you are claiming I said. You are making the same claims today the judaziers made against Paul. They were anathema then and they are today. Paul tells us in Galatians to remain under the written Law is “to pervert the Good News.” The word pervert means to stop going in the right direction, stopping the rightful direction and to actually reverse it into returning the progress we are meant to be making. If all we need to do is keep the Mosaic Covenant our parts as you folks like to claim breaking off those tacky animal sacrifices he could have said so. The Law that Paul saiid is at an end when it brings the sinner to Christ as Lord and Savior. That was God’s design for His Law if you remain under the written Law that is your choice. It hasn’t changed in all these years the error that plagued the Apostle Paul is still trying to undermine those who have heard the call for the highest form of Law, Love, which fulfills the entire Law. Do you believe that Love fulfills the Entire Law. No need to claim I am only under this section of Law or that section. Scripture tells us to break one part of the Law is to break the entire Law. Breaking the Law into pieces and not following the ceremonial portion is breaking the entire Law. Love, and only Love fulfills the entire Law.
    Your insult raised my flesh up and I am sorry if that anger has come through as I have prayed that it not if it has I pray you accept my apology.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I don't follow that statement above which doesn't make sense. The law is the power sin draws from?? Where's that idea written? According to Apostle John, in the New Testament, sin is the transgression of the law. So the law isn't responsible for sin, it's the breaking of God's laws which brings sin. Because the law never could save, that's why we need our Lord Jesus.

    Getting a bit too big for your pants apparently.

    You're misrepresenting God's Word and law, saying things like the law is the power of sin, which is not a phrase written in God's Word, but is a popular line from some preachers. Here, you need to get it right from Apostle Paul instead of relying on created phrases from men's doctrines...

    Rom 7:22-23
    22
    For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    KJV


    Do you even know the difference between that "law of God after the inward man" and that other one Paul says is "another law in my members"?? It's apparent to me that you don't have a clue! And I could care less how angry you get!
     
  15. breathoflife

    breathoflife New Member

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    Where it is found is ! Co. 15:55-56. I really hope you check the passage out so you can be aware of being wrong and acting like jerk.
     
  16. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 15:55-57
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    KJV


    You're trying to make a whole doctrine out of that instead of understanding how Paul was applying that phrase.


    It's a simple matter, by the law is how we know sin...

    Rom 3:20
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight:
    for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    KJV


    Rom 4:15
    15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
    KJV

    That didn't mean all of God's laws were nailed to Christ's cross. There obviously still is transgression today among those who walk by the flesh like Apostle Paul warned in Galatians 5 and 1 Timothy 1, Scripture that OSAS folks rarely if ever mention.


    Rom 5:13
    13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    KJV


    That's closer to Paul's meaning. As long as we walk by The Spirit, like Paul said, then we won't be breaking any of God's laws, and thus we then become dead to the law. That is the ONLY way and when God's laws do not apply to us in Christ.
     
  17. breathoflife

    breathoflife New Member

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    Your absolutely right I guess so I will try not to bother you. Thanks and God bless
     
  18. DoveSpirit05

    DoveSpirit05 Active Member

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    2 be in the law is 2 be in a cage!! dats why Christ came 2 free the captives!!
     
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