Can unbelievers do good works?

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tabletalk

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Who can do good works? The righteous and the unrighteous? Can a person who denies the Triune God (for example) do any *good works* in the sight of God?

And then, can we distinguish between good works and bad works? Or, like the wheat and the tares, do they look the same?

From 2Corinthians chapter 11: "13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."
 

BreadOfLife

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tabletalk said:
Who can do good works? The righteous and the unrighteous? Can a person who denies the Triune God (for example) do any *good works* in the sight of God?

And then, can we distinguish between good works and bad works? Or, like the wheat and the tares, do they look the same?

From 2Corinthians chapter 11: "13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."
One of the nicest, most charitable people i ever knew was an avowed atheist.
Unfortunately - all of her good works - and there were MANY - were worthless in the sight of God because they were not done to glorify HIM.

These are the "filthy rags" that Isaiah talks about in Isaiah 64:6.
 
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tabletalk

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BreadOfLife said:
One of the nicest, most charitable people i ever knew was an avowed atheist.
Unfortunately - all of her good works - and there were MANY - were worthless in the sight of God because they were not done to glorify HIM.

These are the "filthy rags" that Isaiah talks about in Isaiah 64:6.
Even righteous works by someone like Mother Teresa (Saint Teresa), for example, could be worthless in the sight of God if she was not a believer.
 

BreadOfLife

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tabletalk said:
Even righteous works by someone like Mother Teresa (Saint Teresa), for example, could be worthless in the sight of God if she was not a believer.
Exactly - but Mother Teresa WAS a faithful Christian.
 

epostle1

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St. Mother Teresa, whom I love dearly, acted on the grace that God gave her. In turn, by her response, the glory went to God. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith. Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone.

This is why "works salvation" is insulting to Catholics.

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.”

James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law.

James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
 

FHII

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kepha31 said:
St. Mother Teresa, whom I love dearly, acted on the grace that God gave her. In turn, by her response, the glory went to God. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith. Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone.

This is why "works salvation" is insulting to Catholics.

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.”

James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law.

James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
I agree with your overall scope, but not the details. Well now that explains it clearly, doesn't it?!?!

I believe in "good works". I believe they are necessary. But the question is what are good works? I believe (with Biblical reference) they are things rhat pertain to God's will. That is, learning of him, giving to a preacher (not necessarily to poor people), and loving the brothren to be Good works.

And most of that will be unseen by men.

James and Paul DID have different philosophies. People try to reconcile them, but it can't be done unless in a spiritual sense (which you come pretty close to doing).

There is one point James and Paul do agree on: "works" justify you in the sight of men. James said he would show his faith to men by his works. Paul said that if Abraham had works he would have glory, but not before God.

Now, I am not against works. I think everyone should do them. But they should not view it as proof of their faith. If you want to prove your faith to God, read Mat 6. Pray in secret, fast in secret and give in secret. About the only thing you can do in public is identify with him.
 

Deborah_

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Cornelius did 'good works' before he became a Christian - and God took note of them (Acts 10:1-4).
 

BreadOfLife

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Deborah_ said:
Cornelius did 'good works' before he became a Christian - and God took note of them (Acts 10:1-4).
Cornelius didn’t become a Christian until he was Baptized.
 

Jun2u

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BreadOfLife said:
Cornelius didn’t become a Christian until he was Baptized.
As always Catholics will quote scriptures without really understanding what the scriptures really convey. When are you folks going to learn/admit that you belong to a false gospel church?

Your church teaches that:

1. Peter is the Rock (Matt. 16:18) and have been refuted scriptually with Ps. 18:31 which reads: “ For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

2. Your church have elevated the status of Peter and Mary above other saved persons. Again refuted by scriptures, “God is not a respecter of persons,” (Ac. 10:34; Deut. 10:17; 2 Chro. 19:7), and as for Mary, one of your cohorts said it was Elizabeth (false) who cried out to Jesus (Lu. 11:27). What was Jesus’ reply? Verse 28, “But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
All true believers stand on the same ground with Peter and Mary.

3. The RCC is the pillar and ground (foundation) of truth. What an audacious remark! Jesus never ceased to be God. He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life...” Joh. 14:6. Was Jesus lying?

1 Co. 3:11 “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

There is no perfect church on earth. Each and every local denominations in the world consists of people both saved and unsaved alike. Have you not read the parable of the Wheat and Tares? If you have not, how can you understand all parables?

4. Now you are trying to teach your false gospel to others by saying Cornelius did not become saved until he was Baptized? My suspicions that Catholics do not know how to read or understand Scriptures are becoming to fruition. Hence, your conclusions are very much in error.

In fact…

Already in Ac. 10:2 we read of Cornelius as a devout man who feared God and gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. Characters of a saved person.

Note what Peter said in verse 47, “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” Cornelius and his household already were saved before baptized. Verse 48 confirms their salvation.

Water baptism is not required for salvation. Remember the thief on the cross.


To God Be The Glory
 

Deborah_

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Jun2u said:
As always Catholics will quote scriptures without really understanding what the scriptures really convey. When are you folks going to learn/admit that you belong to a false gospel church?

Your church teaches that:

1. Peter is the Rock (Matt. 16:18) and have been refuted scriptually with Ps. 18:31 which reads: “ For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

2. Your church have elevated the status of Peter and Mary above other saved persons. Again refuted by scriptures, “God is not a respecter of persons,” (Ac. 10:34; Deut. 10:17; 2 Chro. 19:7), and as for Mary, one of your cohorts said it was Elizabeth (false) who cried out to Jesus (Lu. 11:27). What was Jesus’ reply? Verse 28, “But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
All true believers stand on the same ground with Peter and Mary.

3. The RCC is the pillar and ground (foundation) of truth. What an audacious remark! Jesus never ceased to be God. He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life...” Joh. 14:6. Was Jesus lying?

1 Co. 3:11 “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

There is no perfect church on earth. Each and every local denominations in the world consists of people both saved and unsaved alike. Have you not read the parable of the Wheat and Tares? If you have not, how can you understand all parables?

4. Now you are trying to teach your false gospel to others by saying Cornelius did not become saved until he was Baptized? My suspicions that Catholics do not know how to read or understand Scriptures are becoming to fruition. Hence, your conclusions are very much in error.

In fact…

Already in Ac. 10:2 we read of Cornelius as a devout man who feared God and gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. Characters of a saved person.

Note what Peter said in verse 47, “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” Cornelius and his household already were saved before baptized. Verse 48 confirms their salvation.

Water baptism is not required for salvation. Remember the thief on the cross.


To God Be The Glory
Cornelius was saved before he was baptised, but not before he met Peter.
The angel had said to him, "Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved." (Acts 11:13,14)
So his good works pre-dated his conversion!
 

mjrhealth

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Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Works account for little unless

Joh_14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
 
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tabletalk

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mjrhealth said:
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Works account for little unless

Joh_14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
And: John 6: "28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." So, belief in the Son of God accomplishes (begins?) the works of God.
 

BreadOfLife

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Jun2u said:
As always Catholics will quote scriptures without really understanding what the scriptures really convey. When are you folks going to learn/admit that you belong to a false gospel church?

Your church teaches that:

1. Peter is the Rock (Matt. 16:18) and have been refuted scriptually with Ps. 18:31 which reads: “ For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

2. Your church have elevated the status of Peter and Mary above other saved persons. Again refuted by scriptures, “God is not a respecter of persons,” (Ac. 10:34; Deut. 10:17; 2 Chro. 19:7), and as for Mary, one of your cohorts said it was Elizabeth (false) who cried out to Jesus (Lu. 11:27). What was Jesus’ reply? Verse 28, “But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
All true believers stand on the same ground with Peter and Mary.

3. The RCC is the pillar and ground (foundation) of truth. What an audacious remark! Jesus never ceased to be God. He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life...” Joh. 14:6. Was Jesus lying?

1 Co. 3:11 “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

There is no perfect church on earth. Each and every local denominations in the world consists of people both saved and unsaved alike. Have you not read the parable of the Wheat and Tares? If you have not, how can you understand all parables?

4. Now you are trying to teach your false gospel to others by saying Cornelius did not become saved until he was Baptized? My suspicions that Catholics do not know how to read or understand Scriptures are becoming to fruition. Hence, your conclusions are very much in error.

In fact…

Already in Ac. 10:2 we read of Cornelius as a devout man who feared God and gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. Characters of a saved person.

Note what Peter said in verse 47, “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” Cornelius and his household already were saved before baptized. Verse 48 confirms their salvation.

Water baptism is not required for salvation. Remember the thief on the cross.


To God Be The Glory
Everything you just repudiated comes straight out of the Scriptures:
1. Peter is the Rock on which Christ built His Church (Matt. 16:18-19). This is why Paul refers to him as "Cephas", and not "Peter" in his letters. Cephas is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic word "Kepha", which means ROCK.

YOU claim that ONLY God is called "Rock" in Scripture?? You don't know your Bible very well because Abraham is called "Rock" in Isaiah 51:1.

2. The Church didn't exalt anybody - GOD did.
In Luke 1:28, Mary is given the title of "Kecharitomene", which means “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”
GOD gave her that title - NOT the Church - just as He gave Peter the name "Kepha" (Rock).


3. Paul called the Church the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15). In the next chapter, he goes on to say that ALL Scripture is GOD-BREATHED (2 Tim. 3:16). That means GOD considers His Church to be the Pillar and foundation of Truth - so why do YOU have a problem with it??

And, by the way - there is only ONE Church and tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects - ALL teaching different doctrines yet ALL claiming to have the "Truth".

4. It is the Word of GOD that tells us about the necessity of Baptism. In Mark 16:16, Jesus says in NO uncertain terms:
"Whoever believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Baptism is the normative means of being reborn. The Thief on the cross was an exception.
NEVER build your doctrines around the exception.

Looks like you need to STUDY your Bible a little closer . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Deborah_ said:
Cornelius was saved before he was baptised, but not before he met Peter.
The angel had said to him, "Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved." (Acts 11:13,14)
So his good works pre-dated his conversion!
Further proving my point that he wasn't saved until Peter baptized him.

1 Pet. 3:21
" . . .and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you
also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It (baptism) saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
 

epostle1

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Cornelius feared God, which is an initial step toward salvation. Acts 10:1-4 I think Deborah and Br.oL are saying the same thing in different ways.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Where does that leave the good deeds of Cornelius? Only God knows, but they must have counted for something, or it wouldn't be in the Bible.
 

epostle1

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Jun2u said:
As always Catholics will quote scriptures without really understanding what the scriptures really convey. When are you folks going to learn/admit that you belong to a false gospel church?
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.
The Bible repeatedly says the Church is infallible and indefectable; what you are saying is anti-biblical. What year does your church teach that Jesus abandoned His Church?

Your church teaches that:

1. Peter is the Rock (Matt. 16:18) and have been refuted scriptually with Ps. 18:31 which reads: “ For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
That refutes nothing, we know that God is the rock. What you don't know is that words in scripture can have more than one meaning.
2. Your church have elevated the status of Peter and Mary above other saved persons. Again refuted by scriptures, “God is not a respecter of persons,” (Ac. 10:34; Deut. 10:17; 2 Chro. 19:7), and as for Mary, one of your cohorts said it was Elizabeth (false) who cried out to Jesus (Lu. 11:27). What was Jesus’ reply? Verse 28, “But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
All true believers stand on the same ground with Peter and Mary.
Because Peter and Mary deserve special honor. Where in any of your verses does it say each individual believer will be given the keys of the kingdom? Where in any of your verses does it say each individual believer will give birth to the Messiah? We give special honor to Mary (similar to the honor you give to your mother) because God honored her first. It's in the Bible. Luke 1.
Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”
All true believers stand on the same ground with Peter and Mary
. but only if they do the will of God, and keep it. This is Catholic teaching but your blind prejudice keeps you from seeing it. What you are forcing this to say is that Jesus is putting his mother down, thus violating the 4th commandment, which is absurd. Jesus is elevating those who do the will of God up to be of the same status as His mother and brothers, He is not lowering His mother and brothers in any way, because they do the will of God. If Mary did not do the will of God, would Jesus have been born? Mary is the perfect model of faith. That is what Jesus is getting at.
. The RCC is the pillar and ground (foundation) of truth. What an audacious remark! Jesus never ceased to be God. He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life...” Joh. 14:6. Was Jesus lying?
1 Timothy 3:15(NKJV)
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

You are blending 2 different truths. When you do that it makes a reply rather laborious. I normally ignore shotgun tactics that list multiple topics at once. That is a rant, not a discussion. There was only one church in existence when Paul wrote to Timothy, and there was only one church in existence until the so called reformation. Re-writing history is what you are forced to do. You cannot refute the historical church of the living God without doing so. It's very dishonest.

Your pitting John 14:6 against 1Timothy 3:15, when they have completely different meanings.

1 Co. 3:11 “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Again, you apply one meaning to one word. The Bible doesn't always do that.
1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.
There is no perfect church on earth. Each and every local denominations in the world consists of people both saved and unsaved alike. Have you not read the parable of the Wheat and Tares? If you have not, how can you understand all parables?
That's 3 topics. Try cutting down on your coffee. There is no perfect church, but we have guaranteed doctrinal purity, because of God's promises.
Water baptism is not required for salvation. Remember the thief on the cross.
Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

There is also baptism of blood, martyrs who never got the chance to be baptized.



Lastly, the Catholic Church you have so much hostility against does not exist. You see a caricature of the Church, not the Church itself.


13239191_10208574805634922_8669941564389177859_n.jpg
 

Wormwood

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“At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.” (Acts 10:1–2, NIV84)

Cornelius had faith in God before he became a Christian. His "good works" were acts of faith directed toward the revelation God had previously given in the Law. Remember, the message of Christ was a new revelation that was being shared with the world. Cornelius had simply not received that message yet, to no fault of his own. The revelation he had received, he responded toward. These were his "good works." Thus, his works were not those of an unbeliever that were declared righteous in God's sight. He was a believer, but simply had not received the message of God's fulfilled promises in Christ.

“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.” (John 15:22–24, NIV84)