Can you choose God?

[APAK]

This thread is all about whether we consider we have ‘free’ will to choose, especially spiritual things or not. Yes, we have our own will to choose how to live, plan, work etc. on this earth. I say is this really ‘free’ will? Not really. God gave us the capability to do all these things to survive and populate the earth. God also gave his will to know him, with our own will. This is a spiritual matter and concerns God’s plans, and not our own.

True free-will is a spiritual affair and we really do not know the extend and complete knowledge of it.

I am of the belief we do not have true ‘free’ will to choose spiritual things. WE are very limited. God has his plan for us and typically overrides our desires or will for those he chooses to ‘bring’ them to knowledge of truth.

We are born with the natural state of being slaves to sin. This alone tells us we are naturally governed by our natural desires. This alone tells us we do not have ‘free’ will to choose God over our own selfish desires. God ultimately chooses us.

Many would say we are then not responsible for our actions. We are at the mercy of God and he controls us like a puppet. No, we are accountable for our actions and yes, we are at the mercy of God, and no, we are not puppets.

God is all-knowing, he is not confined to our sequential time constraints or our 3-D space enclosures including the expanse of the physical universe. He ‘saw’ the future or our destinations before we were conceived. He also invisibly and without human detection, injected himself into our lives, if he desired. We are oblivious to all of this.

At God’s pleasure and choosing, in time, already planned out, he uses some type of criteria (maybe our tendency to love and know God, or just the opposite -yes, to choose under a sinful nature as a slave to sin!) to re-route or maintain the course of someone’s life. He may have plotted and implemented many hundreds of changes in our lives. He already looked at our spiritual DNA, if you will.

His purpose is to bring those he already saw considering him, as slaves to sin, to the Truth. Then God created an environment(s) that would bring them to the truth. From that point on, a person ‘chooses,’ because of the overwhelming power of God presence to follow him in truth with firm faith and commitment. Left alone, using their sinful will and desires, they would never consider choosing God.

Now Scripture does not explicitly speak to this ‘hypothesis’ I’ve describes in skeleton form, although it does seem to fit God’s style and purpose and does not violate any scripture I know of.

As God says we all know him at least by his physical creation(s). We have no excuse to at least consider his presence in our lives. God has given us the ability to choose and to reach out to him in need, even as slaves to sin. He listens to this cry. This is what God taps into and acts on or not. We are truly accountable to consider God first. This is the only ‘free’ choice we can make about our future spiritual state.

So, when God tugs at our hearts and chooses us, we miraculously go to him for his purpose and not our own. We have no choice as we have an overwhelming desire to cross over the fence to truth and not stay in sin and evil. God however will not create this miraculous spiritual environment for everyone; for those he knows will never consider him and his ways.


The concept of ‘free’ will is founded in secular Greek philosophy- Plato, Socrates and Aristotle. It has no business in scripture regarding spiritual matters of the heart. The Greeks spoke of the will or desire in the natural man not the spiritual man. Although they tried to combine the two or say they were the same thing. They were unsuccessful.

(Isa 55:8) The LORD says, "My thoughts are not like yours. Your ways are not like mine.
(Isa 55:9) Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:10) "Rain and snow fall from the sky and don't return until they have watered the ground. Then the ground causes the plants to sprout and grow, and they produce seeds for the farmer and food for people to eat.
(Isa 55:11) In the same way, my words leave my mouth, and they don't come back without results. My words make the things happen that I want to happen. They succeed in doing what I send them to do. (ALL ERV)



Your feedback is suggested…and encouraged


APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

seems to me that if you don't have free will, then you can't change your mind

 

[APAK]

I tried to point out that we have all the freedom to do a lot of things including changing our minds, all day long, although the carnal mind is constrained by our natural desires. Our choices are very limited in this change of choices as we are governed by out sinful outer mind. And further, when it comes to spiritual things we are even more constrained, as 'walking' in the spirit. Our will is being aligned to the will of God and not our own.

Now someone might say, when we repent are we not changing our mind? Sure it does mean this, although we have volunteered and committed to constrain our will to the truth and the spirit within us - turning our mind from or away from sin. We have really have no 'free'-will at all. If we think we still do, I would question whether that person is really a true believer in Christ.

We cannot mix a carnal mind and its will with a mind changed by the heart in God. They are completely different as to the 'freedom' of changing ones mind. Both are constrained. There is no 'freedom' to choose when you really get down to it. Picking an orange over an apple and then picking something else, an animal can do, out of a selfish mind and or even survival reasons.....do they have 'free'-will? If you say yes, then all living things have 'free'-will at a particular level. And that is the point - at a particular level or constraint.

APAK

 

[ScottA]

"Have" freewill is not the proper tense. The word of God eludes to the fact that everything that matters occurred "before the foundation of the world." Thus, it is in that moment, "in the twinkling of an eye", that we [had] freewill...and this? This is us walking it out accordingly.

In other words, as children of God who is the "I am", [we are] who we [are], and this is us doing what we will do, according to who we [were] "before the foundation of the world."

 

[APAK]

"Have" freewill is not the proper tense. The word of God eludes to the fact that everything that matters occurred "before the foundation of the world." Thus, it is in that moment, "in the twinkling of an eye", that we [had] freewill...and this? This is us walking it out accordingly.

In other words, as children of God who is the "I am", [we are] who we [are], and this is us doing what we will do, according to who we [were] "before the foundation of the world."

I guess ScottA I'm agreeing with you as it was already ordained for fulfillment in the future, those in Christ for this spiritual free-will. And I agree that everything did occur beforehand....quite a finer point...were are in our 'time' fulfilling it....a little cryptic although it is to the point.
Let me know if I did understand your point. I will give it a thumbs up anyway.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[ScottA]

I guess ScottA I'm agreeing with you as it was already ordained for fulfillment in the future, those in Christ for this spiritual free-will. And I agree that everything did occur beforehand....quite a finer point...were are in our 'time' fulfilling it....a little cryptic although it is to the point.
Let me know if I did understand your point. I will give it a thumbs up anyway.

Bless you,

APAK

Yes, that is kind of it. But the thing about time vs. eternity vs. what is written vs. that which was before the foundation of the world...is that God does not operate in a then-vs.-now way, but as opposed to "real time", His reality (the only real reality) is rather [real eternity]. Meaning that what we are now experiencing is simply the blow by blow account that can be measured in time...but with God is not.

 

[APAK]

Ok I got it then....I should have accented/ clarified this point...great..APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

Ok I got it then

you did? can you maybe explain the fruit of that to the rest of us? ty

bc i'm pretty sure i can demonstrate God acting in a "then v now" way, certainly where people are concerned, and i am a people
"if you do this, that will happen," etc. So i have to ask what is the fruit of this 'putting yourself in God's place?'
i'd love to derive something useful from it, but "pretense" is what i am getting

 

[GodsGrace]

This thread is all about whether we consider we have ‘free’ will to choose, especially spiritual things or not. Yes, we have our own will to choose how to live, plan, work etc. on this earth. I say is this really ‘free’ will? Not really. God gave us the capability to do all these things to survive and populate the earth. God also gave his will to know him, with our own will. This is a spiritual matter and concerns God’s plans, and not our own.

True free-will is a spiritual affair and we really do not know the extend and complete knowledge of it.

I am of the belief we do not have true ‘free’ will to choose spiritual things. WE are very limited. God has his plan for us and typically overrides our desires or will for those he chooses to ‘bring’ them to knowledge of truth.

We are born with the natural state of being slaves to sin. This alone tells us we are naturally governed by our natural desires. This alone tells us we do not have ‘free’ will to choose God over our own selfish desires. God ultimately chooses us.

Many would say we are then not responsible for our actions. We are at the mercy of God and he controls us like a puppet. No, we are accountable for our actions and yes, we are at the mercy of God, and no, we are not puppets.

God is all-knowing, he is not confined to our sequential time constraints or our 3-D space enclosures including the expanse of the physical universe. He ‘saw’ the future or our destinations before we were conceived. He also invisibly and without human detection, injected himself into our lives, if he desired. We are oblivious to all of this.

At God’s pleasure and choosing, in time, already planned out, he uses some type of criteria (maybe our tendency to love and know God, or just the opposite -yes, to choose under a sinful nature as a slave to sin!) to re-route or maintain the course of someone’s life. He may have plotted and implemented many hundreds of changes in our lives. He already looked at our spiritual DNA, if you will.

His purpose is to bring those he already saw considering him, as slaves to sin, to the Truth. Then God created an environment(s) that would bring them to the truth. From that point on, a person ‘chooses,’ because of the overwhelming power of God presence to follow him in truth with firm faith and commitment. Left alone, using their sinful will and desires, they would never consider choosing God.

Now Scripture does not explicitly speak to this ‘hypothesis’ I’ve describes in skeleton form, although it does seem to fit God’s style and purpose and does not violate any scripture I know of.

As God says we all know him at least by his physical creation(s). We have no excuse to at least consider his presence in our lives. God has given us the ability to choose and to reach out to him in need, even as slaves to sin. He listens to this cry. This is what God taps into and acts on or not. We are truly accountable to consider God first. This is the only ‘free’ choice we can make about our future spiritual state.

So, when God tugs at our hearts and chooses us, we miraculously go to him for his purpose and not our own. We have no choice as we have an overwhelming desire to cross over the fence to truth and not stay in sin and evil. God however will not create this miraculous spiritual environment for everyone; for those he knows will never consider him and his ways.


The concept of ‘free’ will is founded in secular Greek philosophy- Plato, Socrates and Aristotle. It has no business in scripture regarding spiritual matters of the heart. The Greeks spoke of the will or desire in the natural man not the spiritual man. Although they tried to combine the two or say they were the same thing. They were unsuccessful.

(Isa 55:8) The LORD says, "My thoughts are not like yours. Your ways are not like mine.
(Isa 55:9) Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:10) "Rain and snow fall from the sky and don't return until they have watered the ground. Then the ground causes the plants to sprout and grow, and they produce seeds for the farmer and food for people to eat.
(Isa 55:11) In the same way, my words leave my mouth, and they don't come back without results. My words make the things happen that I want to happen. They succeed in doing what I send them to do. (ALL ERV)



Your feedback is suggested…and encouraged


APAK

I stopped reading here:

We are born with the natural state of being slaves to sin. This alone tells us we are naturally governed by our natural desires. This alone tells us we do not have ‘free’ will to choose God over our own selfish desires. God ultimately chooses us.

Many would say we are then not responsible for our actions. We are at the mercy of God and he controls us like a puppet. No, we are accountable for our actions and yes, we are at the mercy of God, and no, we are not puppets.

The bible is very simple, but there is incredible confusion in what you believe.

Seems like you have to make up your mind.
IF God plans everything for us and we sin, then YES, we are NOT responsible for our sin. It's God who made us sin. And YES, we ARE puppets.

If WE choose, by our own free will, good or evil, then yes, we ARE responsible for our sins and God does not make us sin.

You're making everything too complicated.
Do we have free will or not?
Are we responsible for our sins or not?
Does God make us sin or not?

Luke 13:34
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

This is Jesus speaking. He's saying that Jerusalem was not WILLING to be gathered to Him. J's children had a free will to be under Jesus' wings.

 

[APAK]

you did? can you maybe explain the fruit of that to the rest of us? ty

bc i'm pretty sure i can demonstrate God acting in a "then v now" way, certainly where people are concerned, and i am a people
"if you do this, that will happen," etc. So i have to ask what is the fruit of this 'putting yourself in God's place?'
i'd love to derive something useful from it, but "pretense" is what i am getting

Understanding what ScottA said is one thing, which I do. To address the 'fruit' of it is another story entirely. If I understand you correctly what is the benefit of this knowledge. Well, it shows that God is all-knowing and in-control and not restrained by time. His plan is already done. We are 'walking' in the spirit that God already has seen, before we were born. We are fulfilling what God already has planned out and executed for our spiritual needs and future..

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

Understanding what ScottA said is one thing, which I do. To address the 'fruit' of it is another story entirely. If I understand you correctly what is the benefit of this knowledge. Well, it shows that God is all-knowing and in-control and not restrained by time. His plan is already done. We are 'walking' in the spirit that God already has seen, before we were born. We are fulfilling what God already has planned out and executed for our spiritual needs and future..

APAK

well, we either are or we are not in the moment, however, and that doctrine negates that truth;
i am led to "i am sinning because it is God's will" with that, and personal change is denied.
It is a denial of free will, essentially

we are placed in time for a reason, and we are not told to seek a timeless existence anywhere that i know of.

It is nihilism in a dress imo; or perhaps a slip or nightgown

ya, no, it is just nihilism

 

[APAK]

I stopped reading here:

We are born with the natural state of being slaves to sin. This alone tells us we are naturally governed by our natural desires. This alone tells us we do not have ‘free’ will to choose God over our own selfish desires. God ultimately chooses us.

Many would say we are then not responsible for our actions. We are at the mercy of God and he controls us like a puppet. No, we are accountable for our actions and yes, we are at the mercy of God, and no, we are not puppets.

The bible is very simple, but there is incredible confusion in what you believe.

Seems like you have to make up your mind.
IF God plans everything for us and we sin, then YES, we are NOT responsible for our sin. It's God who made us sin. And YES, we ARE puppets.

If WE choose, by our own free will, good or evil, then yes, we ARE responsible for our sins and God does not make us sin.

You're making everything too complicated.
Do we have free will or not?
Are we responsible for our sins or not?
Does God make us sin or not?

Luke 13:34
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

This is Jesus speaking. He's saying that Jerusalem was not WILLING to be gathered to Him. J's children had a free will to be under Jesus' wings.

GodsGrace: I'm sorry you don't get it...my answers are italicized below

The bible is very simple, but there is incredible confusion in what you believe.

I’m not confused you are…it is very clear and straight forward to me

Seems like you have to make up your mind.

I see then you are unsure and left the door open for more input..that’s ok..

IF God plans everything for us and we sin, then YES, we are NOT responsible for our sin. It's God who made us sin. And YES, we ARE puppets.

I never said that God plans everything for us. Read the entire text…He usually does not interfere in our decisions regarding our work, family etc that do not disturb his spiritual plans for us, if any.

If WE choose, by our own free will, good or evil, then yes, we ARE responsible for our sins and God does not make us sin.

I agree with you…where did I not? I just want to point out though a critical point you may be forgetting, that if NOT a believer all our choices that produce sin is death…WE do have a choice to change this, right? We have a choice to turn to God, whatever form that God reckons is genuine. God already saw this and already planned a miraculous intervention for those that 'consider' God

You're making everything too complicated.

Again. it is not complicated as a believer in Christ. It is the bare minimum I’ve written.

Do we have free will or not?
Are we responsible for our sins or not?
Does God make us sin or not?

I kind of answered these 3 questions already...

Luke 13:34
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

This is Jesus speaking. He's saying that Jerusalem was not WILLING to be gathered to Him. J's children had a free will to be under Jesus' wings.

These people were never credited with salvation either. They were not believers. They were slaves to sin…they made their decision to ‘die’, spiritually.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

IF God plans everything for us and we sin, then YES, we are NOT responsible for our sin. It's God who made us sin. And YES, we ARE puppets.

ergo you cannot change your mind, and God is the devil, and the doctrine of "nevermind" is the best one
ok

oh ya, also pointless to "pick up your cross," i mean why do that when you can smoke crack and equally justify it right?

 

[bbyrd009]

nihilists

 

[APAK]

well, we either are or we are not in the moment, however, and that doctrine negates that truth;
i am led to "i am sinning because it is God's will" with that, and personal change is denied.
It is a denial of free will, essentially

we are placed in time for a reason, and we are not told to seek a timeless existence anywhere that i know of.

It is nihilism in a dress imo; or perhaps a slip or nightgown

ya, no, it is just nihilism

I believe you are thinking quite differently than myself. You have chucked out a couple of key nouns like truth and nihilism without any qualification. You need to qualify them first before I can even respond. I understand you seem not to understand we are walking in time and God does not. He can walk in ANY moment of time. Yes, I agree we are placed here in this time for a reason.

APAK

 

[APAK]

ergo you cannot change your mind, and God is the devil, and the doctrine of "nevermind" is the best one
ok

oh ya, also pointless to "pick up your cross," i mean why do that when you can smoke crack and equally justify it right?

I'm sorry you are so confused. I would not be quick to place judgement though...APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm sorry you are so confused. I would not be quick to place judgement though...APAK

i am asking a question though, not judging.
The question asks for a response, that has not ever, and will not ever be sufficiently provided, in my opinion.
If you prove me wrong, so much the better

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe you are thinking quite differently than myself. You have chucked out a couple of key nouns like truth and nihilism without any qualification. You need to qualify them first before I can even respond. I understand you seem not to understand we are walking in time and God does not. He can walk in ANY moment of time. Yes, I agree we are placed here in this time for a reason.

APAK

you posit that we sin bc God wants us to, even makes us, and i don't believe this can be Supported any kind of way wadr

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm sorry you are so confused.

speaks volumes i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

You have chucked out a couple of key nouns like truth and nihilism without any qualification. You need to qualify them first before I can even respond.

truth:

we either are or we are not (walking in the Spirit, walking by faith, following Christ) in the moment

nihilism:
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
synonyms: skepticism, negativity, cynicism, pessimism; More

• PHILOSOPHY
  extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.