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Featured Can you sort this out?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Uisdean, Sep 23, 2018.

  1. Uisdean

    Uisdean Active Member

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    Do you understand Righteousness and Obedience well enough to sort this out?

    I am going to ask a Trick Question:

    1 Samuel 22:6-23
    My summary: David had taken refuge with the priests at Nob. Doeg the Edomite tells King Saul. The King goes to Nob and orders the execution of the priests there. None of King Saul's men would obey him and kill the priests. Except for Doeg, who kills all of the priests except Abiathar (who escapes).

    Who did God's will, Saul's men who refused to kill the priests or Doeg, who did kill them?

    1 Samuel 3:11-14
    11 Then the Lord said to Samuel: “Behold, I will do something in Israel at which both ears of everyone who hears it will tingle. 12 In that day I will perform against Eli all that I have spoken concerning his house, from beginning to end. 13 For I have told him that I will judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knows, because his sons made themselves vile, and he did not restrain them. 14 And therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”

    And finally,

    1 Kings 2:26-27:
    26 And to Abiathar the priest the king said, “Go to Anathoth, to your own fields, for [a]you are deserving of death; but I will not put you to death at this time, because you carried the ark of the Lord God before my father David, and because you were afflicted every time my father was afflicted.” 27 So Solomon removed Abiathar from being priest to the Lord, that he might fulfill the word of the Lord which He spoke concerning the house of Eli at Shiloh.

    So, did Doeg the Edomite commit a righteous act when he obeyed the King, who was in rebellion against God?

    I have been thinking about this for a while and thought it might be a good subject for my first thread.

    BTW...I'm still working on that blog about Good and Evil. I submitted it to a friend with a seminary degree and was given some advice and pointers.

    I have posted it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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  2. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    I like it...I hope it gets taken up by others and discussed...it would make a very good study.
    Interesting

    I am WATCHING this Thread :)
     
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  3. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

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    If you are speaking about King Saul, the King that David replaced, then at that time the King was not being Righteous before the Lord! So by the order of the King, Doeg, did the right thing, He obeyed the King, But was it God's will that the Priest's were slain, if not then the men that refused to kill the Priest's did the Will of God! At that time Saul was back and forth about taking David's Life! So here in is the Question, did the Priest's do the will of God, by giving David refuge, and by doing so, was it worthy of death!
     
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  4. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps some perspective may come when considering the captivity of Israel in Babylon. Was it God's will that Israel be taken captive? Consider the fact that God judged Babylon for doing so.
     
  5. Uisdean

    Uisdean Active Member

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    I fell into this because St. Peter and St. Paul both tell us to obey the government. And at that time they were under Roman government. I accidentally found the Scripture about Solomon and Abiathar. That reminded me about the Priests at Nob and the refusal of King Saul's men to kill them. And...Jesus uses the incident (Luke 6:1-6) to explain the Sabbath. Sometimes Bible study makes my brain hurt. :)
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    This hints at Calvin's "Lesser Magistrate" doctrine.....

    "In a nutshell, the “lesser magistrate doctrine” is that a subordinate government official may revolt against a superior magistrate / ruler who is tyrannically oppressing the people and violating both civil and Biblical law. It supposedly gives warrant—making lawful in the eyes of God—to undertake violent revolution against tyrants. Here is a Facebook site given to promoting said doctrine: The Lesser Magistrate Doctrine

    The “Lesser Magistrate” Doctrine and America
     
  7. Uisdean

    Uisdean Active Member

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    Yeah. He judged Babylon alright. Daniel was an eyewitness to that judgment. But I think it was because the Babylonians did not respect God in any way. And when that fool of a king sent for the Holy Vessels to use for his sinful acts, God took action.

    As for God's will that Israel be taken captive: we have God warning Israel and Judah over and over that it was not His Will that they be disobedient. He did that which He saw fit to bring the nation back to Him.

    It was God's will that Eli's family be removed from the priesthood. He told this to Eli through the boy Samuel.
     
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  8. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind that conclusions here (and anywhere) should come from an understanding of the overall Bible, and not merely from selected verses that may only pertain to a specific, particular, separate and isolated incident, or a certain time in history.

    We may not be reading the establishment of moral doctrine, but simply the recitation of history.
     
  9. Uisdean

    Uisdean Active Member

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    Nebuchadnesser was not concious of being obedient to God in his siege of Judah. He did it because he thought it would make him even greater. Yet he did do the will of God.

    The Priests at Nob were already condemned: not for what they had done, but for what Eli allowed his sons to do. And, if Jesus uses David's eating of the showbread to illustrate how the Sabbath works, then that must have been in God's will.


    Doeg the Edomite did not disobey King Saul. The rest of the army did. But that's not my question. However, I was unaware of Calvin's doctrine. Good thing to know.

    My question really is a trick question: King Saul was in rebellion against God. Yet God uses him to implement the curse God had placed on Eli's family. So the question really is, "Are you doing God's will if you obey an earthly king who is in rebellion and in obeying that earthly king you actually end up doing God's will?"

    It is a question of Obedience. And it is a question of what is in your heart. What do you suspect was in Doeg the Edomite's heart when he decided to obey King Saul?
     
  10. Uisdean

    Uisdean Active Member

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    This is not about establishing moral doctrine. This is about how a person interprets moral doctrine in order to do that which is right. The question is about what is in your heart.

    The historical accounts are there for many reasons. One of them is to illustrate the moral doctrine. But you are most certainly right in that one should not try to determine moral doctrine from the historical accounts, alone. The rest of the Bible is also there for a reason. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Simply put, if the ruler forces us to sin, we must refrain and suffer the consequences.
     
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  12. Uisdean

    Uisdean Active Member

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    I remember something about Cyprian of Carthage...
    He first went into hiding...
    Wasn't he the one who said that those Christians who had bowed to the emperor should be forgiven? That caused a huge problem for many. Their bishop, their spiritual advisor, who had authority over them, was asking that those who had bowed to the emperor be accepted back into the Church...with penance, of course.
    That was someone in spiritual authority saying what many did not want to hear. Many had died as you say, suffering the consequences. Their relatives had a difficult time with his "request" that the cowards be forgiven.
    I think it was Cyprian. It was a bishop during the Roman persecution.
     
  13. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Since murder is a sin, this could never be a righteous act. Saul sinned and so did Doeg.
     
  14. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Consider Doeg and David:

    Doeg obeyed the king to fulfill God's Word with regard to Eli and the priesthood [even that underlying purpose was probably unknown to them].

    David would not be pressed to kill King Saul on two occasions when he had the opportunity even though God had already rejected Saul as king. He would not touch God's anointed.


    The priests were also God's anointed in spite of being rejected by God.

    God's will with regard to Saul and with regard to the priesthood of Eli would be fulfilled, but...
    Those who do evil things to accomplish the curses of God [often unknowingly] work as on or from His left hand. David recognized this and would not work as God's left hand. Doeg did not recognize this and did work as God's left hand. [ Matt 25:41-46 ]


    The curses will be accomplished and if men are needed to do them God will use men who have placed themselves in that position, such as such as Doeg or the Amalekite who thought to please King David by taking credit for killing King Saul [ II Sam 1:14-16 ].

    "Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!" Luke 17:1
     
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  15. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    Galatians 5:22‭-‬23 KJV

    I take this to refer to God's laws but also mans. Hence if any of man's laws or decrees are against the above they are overruled by God. That doesn't mean you will not suffer the consequences under a corrupt government though.
     
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  16. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Mixing the holy with the profane... Even we Christians need to bear that in mind. Good may tolerate a lot of things, but not mixing the sacred with man made traditions and teachings.
     
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  17. Uisdean

    Uisdean Active Member

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    :D:D:D
    That's IT!
    The context of a verse includes not only the verses around it, but also the moral, ethical context.
    I had forgotten about "God's left hand".
    But it is what I was thinking about.
    What was in Doeg's heart? We don't know. But note that Solomon did not kill Abiathar. Yet God's curse was fulfilled.
    Thanks. This was a good exercise.
     
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  18. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Doeg had nothing to do with the death of the sons of Eli -- Hophni and Phinehas. That was a separate incident .

    And the messenger answered and said, Israel is fled before the Philistines, and there hath been also a great slaughter among the people, and thy two sons also, Hophni and Phinehas, are dead, and the ark of God is taken. ( 1 Sam 4:17)

    But he did murder the other priests, which was a heinous crime. So murder was in his heart, since no one else agreed to this crime.
     
  19. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Was it?

    "For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not.
    And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever." I Sam 3:13-14


    "So Solomon thrust out Abiathar from being priest unto the LORD; that he might fulfil the word of the LORD, which he spake concerning the house of Eli in Shiloh." I King 2:27

    Remember that when Eli's two sons died that that was NOT the end of his line. He had a grandson by the name of Ichabod [ I Sam 4:21 ]
     
  20. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The Scriptures you quoted had nothing to do with Doeg.
     
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