Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[Josho]

Time to bring up a positive happy thread. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Here is a brief video on the history about it, and the powerful movement fueled by the Holy Spirit is still going strong today.

 

[farouk]

Time to bring up a positive happy thread. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Here is a brief video on the history about it, and the powerful movement fueled by the Holy Spirit is still going strong today.

@Josho I would concentrate on doctrine rather than experience.

In the end it's all about what the Scriptures actually say and teach, rather than on what ppl say and the experiences they may seem to have.

 

[Enoch111]

...the powerful movement fueled by the Holy Spirit is still going strong today...

With all due respect to being positive, do you really think that the Holy Spirit would support seriously false doctrine and practices while bringing about a so-called "renewal"? The first step towards renewal and revival is repentance, and the Catholic Church has never repented. Rather they have doubled-down on their false beliefs.

 

[Josho]

With all due respect to being positive, do you really think that the Holy Spirit would support seriously false doctrine and practices while bringing about a so-called "renewal"? The first step towards renewal and revival is repentance, and the Catholic Church has never repented. Rather they have doubled-down on their false beliefs.

Actually they are pretty strong on repentance, that's a strong point of the Catholic Church.

 

[Josho]

@Josho I would concentrate on doctrine rather than experience.

In the end it's all about what the Scriptures actually say and teach, rather than on what ppl say and the experiences they may seem to have.

Such as Acts, the Book of Acts approves of these experiences, the Gospel also approves of these experiences.

 

[Enoch111]

Actually they are pretty strong on repentance, that's a strong point of the Catholic Church.

Penance is not the same as repentance. Repentance means that a sinner believes on Christ ALONE and His finished work ALONE for salvation. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches. Indeed they strongly resisted this in the Council of Trent.

Getting back to penance, here is what is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1456 Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance...

1457 According to the Church's command, "after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year." Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession...

1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation, bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

 

[Hidden In Him]

Time to bring up a positive happy thread. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Here is a brief video on the history about it, and the powerful movement fueled by the Holy Spirit is still going strong today.

@OzSpen. Dear brother, please respond to this thread when you have a chance. I would like to know your thoughts on the current state of the Charismatic Renewal, and maybe discuss it with you.

God bless,
Hidden

 

[Hidden In Him]

Time to bring up a positive happy thread. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Here is a brief video on the history about it, and the powerful movement fueled by the Holy Spirit is still going strong today.

Wonderful video, Josho! George Montague (6:43 - 7:22) made me laugh, LoL.

 

[rockytopva]

My dad's family are from the Saginaw Michigan Catholic church family and I use to attend when I was very young. The church then had nuns, monks, priests, and a very Catholic service. The people would dress sharply for church and would all look business professional. If I could go back in time I would like to sit again in one of the churches and take it all in.

The Holy Family Catholic church in Saginaw, Michigan. Just walking through the doors for me as a child was an incredible experience! My family there were all good people.

 

[marksman]

Time to bring up a positive happy thread. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Here is a brief video on the history about it, and the powerful movement fueled by the Holy Spirit is still going strong today.

I have been exposed to some aspects of catholicism. The worst when I was a teacher in their schools which in one case was ruled by an overbearing and dictatorial priest, who had no understanding of life outside of the catholic church, and the catholic charismatic renewal both in the UK and here in Australia.

In the UK, denominations of all kinds that were recipients of the renewal, used to meet together once a month for an evening of praise and worship.

One evening I sat next to another man and we exchanged pleasantries and then went through the meeting. judging by his demeanor I guessed him to be a pentecostal. After the meeting, we got to talking about our own churches and do you know what, he was a catholic. This man was definitely born again and was full of grace and truth.

In Australia, I had the privilege to sit under the ministry of Kurt Braun, a catholic priest that was at the centre of the catholic charismatic renewal in Canberra. he was so popular he spoke at many protestant meetings. If you were miserable when you arrived, you weren't by the time you left as he had the ability to make every meeting a time of joy.

In the UK sections of the Anglican were big on the renewal, especially Michael Harper an Anglican priest who wrote books about it. Several Anglican Churches installed baptistries so they could conduct adult baptism. Michael was at the forefront of things for about 20 years. He was a minister at All Souls Langham Place which was presided over by John Stott who was not pleased by his Curate sad to say because he was against anything of this nature even though it was renewing and reviving the church.

 

[Josho]

I have been exposed to some aspects of catholicism. The worst when I was a teacher in their schools which in one case was ruled by an overbearing and dictatorial priest, who had no understanding of life outside of the catholic church, and the catholic charismatic renewal both in the UK and here in Australia.

In the UK, denominations of all kinds that were recipients of the renewal, used to meet together once a month for an evening of praise and worship.

One evening I sat next to another man and we exchanged pleasantries and then went through the meeting. judging by his demeanor I guessed him to be a pentecostal. After the meeting, we got to talking about our own churches and do you know what, he was a catholic. This man was definitely born again and was full of grace and truth.

In Australia, I had the privilege to sit under the ministry of Kurt Braun, a catholic priest that was at the centre of the catholic charismatic revival in Canberra. he was so popular he spoke at many protestant meetings. if you were miserable when you arrived, you weren't by the time you left as he had the ability to make every meeting a time of joy.

In the UK sections of the Anglican were big on the renewal, especially Michael Harper an Anglican priest who wrote books about it. Several Anglican Churches installed baptistries so they could conduct adult baptism. Michael was at the forefront of things for about 20 years. he was a minister at All Souls Langham Place which was presided over by John Stott who was not pleased by his Curate sad to say because he was against anything of this nature even though it was renewing and reviving the church.

I think it's a wonderful thing we can see unity between the different churches in the UK.

 

[OzSpen]

@OzSpen. Dear brother, please respond to this thread when you have a chance. I would like to know your thoughts on the current state of the Charismatic Renewal, and maybe discuss it with you.

God bless,
Hidden

HiH,

I do not have enough contemporary experience with the Charismatic Renewal because the excesses have repelled me. I would love to go to a Pentecostal/Charismatic church that taught the Bible and was open to the full range of the gifts of the Spirit - without chaotic manifestations.

It grieves me to have to write like this. I came into the Charismatic movement in the 1970s when it was vibrant (but I heard a few preachers who should have done more study before they entered the pulpit).

I am so concerned about the false doctrine being perpetrated in some of these churches. You might be interested in a few articles I've written to address these issues:

• Charismatic chaos in a Brisbane house church
• Christianity in free fall: the Toronto blessing
• Where are the expositors in Pentecostal-charismatic churches?
• The Rhema Barb and Its Poison: The Rhema vs. Logos Controversy
• What Presbyterians can learn from Pentecostals!

Thanks to the powerful Hillsong movement in Australia, I hear a lot of shallow theology, and contemporary music with shallow lyrics and melodies that are meant to be performed and are not singable by the congregation. See my article: Contemporary music in church to the lyrics of spiritual death

The Charismatic movement in this country is focussed on 'leadership' instead of training pastors in pastoral care and solid preaching. That's not just a problem of Charismatic churches but of many evangelical churches.

I trust we can have some profitable discussions.

Blessings,

Oz

 

[marksman]

HiH,

I do not have enough contemporary experience with the Charismatic Renewal because the excesses have repelled me. I would love to go to a Pentecostal/Charismatic church that taught the Bible and was open to the full range of the gifts of the Spirit - without chaotic manifestations.

It grieves me to have to write like this. I came into the Charismatic movement in the 1970s when it was vibrant (but I heard a few preachers who should have done more study before they entered the pulpit).

I am so concerned about the false doctrine being perpetrated in some of these churches. You might be interested in a few articles I've written to address these issues:

• Charismatic chaos in a Brisbane house church
• Christianity in free fall: the Toronto blessing
• Where are the expositors in Pentecostal-charismatic churches?
• The Rhema Barb and Its Poison: The Rhema vs. Logos Controversy
• What Presbyterians can learn from Pentecostals!

Thanks to the powerful Hillsong movement in Australia, I hear a lot of shallow theology, and contemporary music with shallow lyrics and melodies that are meant to be performed and are not singable by the congregation. See my article: Contemporary music in church to the lyrics of spiritual death

The Charismatic movement in this country is focussed on 'leadership' instead of training pastors in pastoral care and solid preaching. That's not just a problem of Charismatic churches but of many evangelical churches.

I trust we can have some profitable discussions. Blessings, Oz

I have had quite a lot of exposure to various charismatic/pentecostal/renewal movement in the UK and Australia. It is very difficult to classify them specifically in a determinate way because there is much diversity amongst them.

I would not make such claims as they are not focussed on training pastors because I know that is not true. I know of one renewal movement in the UK that has a very defined leadership course that has proved to be successful in raising up leaders and as a result starting new churches which is what should be happening.

This movement identifies leaders in its congregations, trains them, and then asks them if they would move to a certain town and start a new church. If this happens, the leader and perhaps half a dozen of the congregation sell up their homes and move holus-bolus to the new town and start a church. As a result, there are churches all over the country that have been started this way.

The term solid preaching is problematic as one has to asks what is solid preaching? I get the feeling that it is stodgy preaching. In other words, don't get excited about God. Having been made a member of the King of King's family, that is something to get excited about, especially as it means that I don't have to live a life of sin and I don't have to worry about dying because I know where I am going to.

Your comment that the excesses have repelled you is very telling. The fact is there is the good, the bad, and the ugly in everything. For example, if the catholic church has any value one would debate this bearing in mind the child abuse perpetrated by Catholic priests. Despite this fact, the number of priests who abuse is a small number in comparison to the totality of the number of catholic priests. Those that abuse in no way deny the authenticity and self-sacrifice of Mother Terisa in India. I guess it all depends on who and how you are going to judge anything by.

Your comment that charismatic preachers should have done more study before getting into the pulpit is very selective. In some non-charismatic denominations, they don't have to do study because the material preached is dished out by HQ. To feel the pulse of a congregation is more important because there is little use to preach about the second coming if they are not there yet as there are more important pressing issues they are dealing with as in a bush fire or a flood.

Toronto blessing. I have been to John's meetings, done the study of the movement. Read the books about the movement and analysed the preaching. What have you done? By the sound of things, picked on one aspect of it and judged everything by that. Have you checked out the fact that many ministers have visited Toronto very dejected and worn out, been totally revitalized whilst there, and gone back to their congregations on fire and have revitalized it with new life and passion? Do you consider that a bad thing?

I have read some of your stuff on your website and it seems to be a site that specializes in pointing out everyone's faults (according to you). I was part of a restoration church in the UK and it had its faults but it was far better than anything else I had experienced. For every fault I experienced there were 10 good things that were happening. Had I approached it like you do I would have been deprived of 10 very good years of experiencing the tried, true and tested.

 

[OzSpen]

I have read some of your stuff on your website and it seems to be a site that specializes in pointing out everyone's faults (according to you).

marksman,

That is absolutely false and an hyperbole.

I'm a Christian apologist, polemicist and teacher by gifting. Therefore, you'll find all kinds of articles on my website. Some of these articles will critique teachings of some people. I'm a watchman. Do the following articles point out people's faults?

• Is God eternal and temporal?
• No need to list Old Testament books in New Testament
• Authorship of the Book of Hebrews
• Women in ministry in church history

I will not support Toronto 'Blessing' and Pensacola 'Blessing' with grown people crawling around on the floor in the meetings and barking like dogs. In my view, a church that promotes that behaviour is an abomination before God.

Oz

 

[Josho]

@Cristo Rei @Mungo @Philip James thought maybe you might like this thread

 

[Cristo Rei]

HiH,

I do not have enough contemporary experience with the Charismatic Renewal because the excesses have repelled me. I would love to go to a Pentecostal/Charismatic church that taught the Bible and was open to the full range of the gifts of the Spirit - without chaotic manifestations.

It grieves me to have to write like this. I came into the Charismatic movement in the 1970s when it was vibrant (but I heard a few preachers who should have done more study before they entered the pulpit).

I am so concerned about the false doctrine being perpetrated in some of these churches. You might be interested in a few articles I've written to address these issues:

• Charismatic chaos in a Brisbane house church
• Christianity in free fall: the Toronto blessing
• Where are the expositors in Pentecostal-charismatic churches?
• The Rhema Barb and Its Poison: The Rhema vs. Logos Controversy
• What Presbyterians can learn from Pentecostals!

Thanks to the powerful Hillsong movement in Australia, I hear a lot of shallow theology, and contemporary music with shallow lyrics and melodies that are meant to be performed and are not singable by the congregation. See my article: Contemporary music in church to the lyrics of spiritual death

The Charismatic movement in this country is focussed on 'leadership' instead of training pastors in pastoral care and solid preaching. That's not just a problem of Charismatic churches but of many evangelical churches.

I trust we can have some profitable discussions.

Blessings,

Oz

Hows it going bro? U know me right. Christ the King...

 

[Cristo Rei]

Penance is not the same as repentance. Repentance means that a sinner believes on Christ ALONE and His finished work ALONE for salvation. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches. Indeed they strongly resisted this in the Council of Trent.

Getting back to penance, here is what is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1456 Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance...

1457 According to the Church's command, "after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year." Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession...

1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation, bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

These are the actual definitions of repent and penance

Repent - feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin
Penance - punishment inflicted on oneself as an outward expression of repentance for wrongdoing

Ur really taking up issue with nothing my friend. Repentance is a part of penance by definition

Can I just ask why u are concerned about the teachings of the RCC in the first place.
Does it effect u in a way that im unaware of?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I do not have enough contemporary experience with the Charismatic Renewal because the excesses have repelled me.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, although I can fully understand. It's like that pretty much everywhere really.

I would love to go to a Pentecostal/Charismatic church that taught the Bible and was open to the full range of the gifts of the Spirit - without chaotic manifestations.

So would I. What I actually see more of are falsified and man-manipulated "manifestations," but I suppose at least they are trying... albeit in the flesh, which is unfortunately nothing I can really commend them for.

It grieves me to have to write like this. I came into the Charismatic movement in the 1970s when it was vibrant (but I heard a few preachers who should have done more study before they entered the pulpit).

I was baptized in the Spirit in the early 80s, and it was much more vibrant in the Assemblies back then too. Real manifestations, not manufactured ones.

I am so concerned about the false doctrine being perpetrated in some of these churches. You might be interested in a few articles I've written to address these issues:

• Charismatic chaos in a Brisbane house church
• Christianity in free fall: the Toronto blessing
• Where are the expositors in Pentecostal-charismatic churches?
• The Rhema Barb and Its Poison: The Rhema vs. Logos Controversy
• What Presbyterians can learn from Pentecostals!

I absolutely would. I've always appreciated your work. I'll need to find some time, but maybe I can take a break from things here soon and look through them. The expositors article sounds like it might be a good read. It is true. I found the people in the Assemblies didn't really do a lot of expounding either. It's like they were operating on auto-pilot most of the time, without anyone really knowing what the Word of God actually taught on many things, including many Pentecostal/Charismatic issues.

Thanks to the powerful Hillsong movement in Australia, I hear a lot of shallow theology, and contemporary music with shallow lyrics and melodies that are meant to be performed and are not singable by the congregation. See my article: Contemporary music in church to the lyrics of spiritual death

This one would make for an interesting discussion some day maybe. I used to firmly believe in the necessity of word-focused, word-laden worship, in keeping with Colossians 3:16. I have started to soften that stance somewhat in more recent days, however, because I'm seeing more value in heart-felt and emotionally based worship as well.

But maybe for another time.

I trust we can have some profitable discussions.

Blessings,

You better believe it, and thanks for responding to my post. I may have some other things later I'd like you to comment on, specifically from the perspective of a Charismatic Catholic living in Australia.

God bless,
Hidden

 

[Philip James]

@Cristo Rei @Mungo @Philip James thought maybe you might like this thread

Hello Josho,
Yes i have been following the thread. I am familiar with the ccr in Canada.
There is a new apostolic community that grew out of it in Ottawa: Who We Are | Companions of the Cross
I probably would have become more involved with them but Ottawa is so far away lol...
But for those that wish to see what the charismatic renewal has accomplished under the authority of the Church in Canada, i think this apostolate is a very good example..

Peace be with you!

 

[Josho]

Hello Josho,
Yes i have been following the thread. I am familiar with the ccr in Canada.
There is a new apostolic community that grew out of it in Ottawa: Who We Are | Companions of the Cross
I probably would have become more involved with them but Ottawa is so far away lol...
But for those that wish to see what the charismatic renewal has accomplished under the authority of the Church in Canada, i think this apostolate is a very good example..

Peace be with you!

Hello Philip, Thanks for sharing, will have to look into it more tomorrow.

Thought I would share a link or 2 about the CCR in Australia.

What is Catholic Charismatic Renewal?

Vision and Mission Statement