Catholic "Sacred Mysteries" questions...

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dev553344

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I've been watching Catholic Mass and I noticed some "Sacred Mysteries" that they discussed. And then proceeded to say that some of them were that Mary, mother of Jesus never sinned. Also that John the Baptist was sin free. There was one other but never mentioned Jesus as the only one who never sinned.

And the conclusion I reached is that someone sometime said that these sacred mysteries were revealed to them from God. And that would amount to a "Prophet" in their church.

Now I'm not buying that Mary never sinned or John the Baptist. I hold that Jesus never sinned and was a lamb without blemish which made him right for the atonement of sin.

Anyways, I looked online and found that their statement was that these two biblical figures were born without original sin.

Perhaps someone can explain their beliefs better?
 
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dev553344

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They also stated in the Mass that Mary could cleanse someone from sin. But the way I see it only the blood of Christ can do that. Can someone also explain why they believe that?
 
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BreadOfLife

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I've been watching Catholic Mass and I noticed some "Sacred Mysteries" that they discussed. And then proceeded to say that some of them were that Mary, mother of Jesus never sinned. Also that John the Baptist was sin free. There was one other but never mentioned Jesus as the only one who never sinned.

And the conclusion I reached is that someone sometime said that these sacred mysteries were revealed to them from God. And that would amount to a "Prophet" in their church.

Now I'm not buying that Mary never sinned or John the Baptist. I hold that Jesus never sinned and was a lamb without blemish which made him right for the atonement of sin.

Anyways, I looked online and found that their statement was that these two biblical figures were born without original sin.

Perhaps someone can explain their beliefs better?
The Church teaches that Mary was born without original sin – and that Jesus, of course, never sinned. There is NO official teaching about John the Baptist being born without original sin or having live a sinless life.

The Greek word is Kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with a permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, Hail, Kecharitomene.”

Jerome translated this title as “Gratia plena” (full of grace).
He could HARDLY write, “Hail, completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, which is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a PERMANENT result.”
They also stated in the Mass that Mary could cleanse someone from sin. But the way I see it only the blood of Christ can do that. Can someone also explain why they believe that?
This is a LIE – and YOU should be ashamed of yourself for spewing falsehoods.

The Catholic Church does NOT teach – nor has it EVER taught that Mary has the power to “cleanse” us from our sins.

TRY being honest . . .
 

dev553344

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This is a LIE – and YOU should be ashamed of yourself for spewing falsehoods.

The Catholic Church does NOT teach – nor has it EVER taught that Mary has the power to “cleanse” us from our sins.

TRY being honest . . .
That's not a lie, it's what the priest said in the online mass. Maybe he was mistaken? If I had access to that Mass today I would show you, but it is no longer available online that I could find. BTW, calling people a liar is not exactly the way to win over converts, wow, just wow!
 
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dev553344

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The Church teaches that Mary was born without original sin – and that Jesus, of course, never sinned. There is NO official teaching about John the Baptist being born without original sin or having live a sinless life.

The Greek word is Kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with a permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, Hail, Kecharitomene.”

Jerome translated this title as “Gratia plena” (full of grace).
He could HARDLY write, “Hail, completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, which is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a PERMANENT result.”

This is a LIE – and YOU should be ashamed of yourself for spewing falsehoods.

The Catholic Church does NOT teach – nor has it EVER taught that Mary has the power to “cleanse” us from our sins.

TRY being honest . . .
I looked at a couple different translations, one the NKJV and the other the new Catholic bible. And both translations just say:
"Hail Full of Grace" so it doesn't appear that the translation supports your interpretation, otherwise I think it would have said "permanent", but it doesn't. So I have to say this is one of those "sacred mysteries" revealed by the Catholic Church in some age of it.

And they do use the words "sacred mysteries" a lot in the online Mass. Seems you're ignoring that fact.
 

dev553344

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And I think in order to translate that way, one would have to ignore the verse that says all have fallen short of the Glory of God. Since Jesus was God he is included but Mary is not. So that particular "sacred mystery" goes against scripture:

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
 
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BreadOfLife

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it's what the priest said in the online mass. Maybe he was mistaken? If I had access to that Mass today I would show you, but it is no longer available online that I could find. BTW, calling people a liar is not exactly the way to win over converts, wow, just wow!
WHO said I was trying to "win over" converts??
I was exposig your LIE.

People like YOU think that you can go around vomiting out lies about the Catholic Church with impunity..
Do you know what the BIBLE sayys about liars?
Rev. 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and ALL LIARS, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Goo luck with that.

Face it - you never heard a priest say that Mary cleanses us from our sins.
You made it up - and now you claim that it "can't be found" anymore on,line.
 

BreadOfLife

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I looked at a couple different translations, one the NKJV and the other the new Catholic bible. And both translations just say:
"Hail Full of Grace"
so it doesn't appear that the translation supports your interpretation, otherwise I think it would have said "permanent", but it doesn't. So I have to say this is one of those "sacred mysteries" revealed by the Catholic Church in some age of it.
Good grief - go back and READ my post.
I said that it is in the GREEK. "Kecharitomene: means exactly what I wxplained:
A completed action with a permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

I explained to you that Jerome translated it as "Gratia plena (Full of grace) because "A completed action with a permanent result, translating as, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace” would have sounded silly.

It's obvious that you know nothing about languages. Here aresome scholarly Protestant Greek linguists on the matter:
"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament)

There is no question of a "secondary" reality, one that would have touched her only ulteriorly. Rather, it pertains to the very identity of Mary. Moreover, the appellation κεχαριτωμένη, in all of Scripture, is reserved to Mary, as if it were her special mark. In fact, some have tried to see in the parallel with Gideon, a demonstration that the κεχαριτωμένη would refer only to a grace that is to come, one to follow immediately. For Gideon is called "valiant warrior" at a time when he is not yet such; therefore κεχαριτωμένη would signify a grace that is not present before the angel's greeting. However, as contrasted with what concerns Gideon, the angel does not apply to Mary a noun bracketed with an adjective, but a perfect participle, a verbal form that refers to a past that is prolonged in the present. Therefore, it is before the angel's greeting, before the Incarnation, that Mary is κεχαριτωμένη.

(Kecharitomene (Lk. 1:28) in the Light of Gen. 18:16-33: A Matter of Quantity François Rossier University of Dayton)

Kecharitōmĕnē is the perfect passive participle of charitŏō. It denotes one who has been and still is the object of divine benevolence, one who has been favored and continues to be favored by God, one who has been granted supernatural grace and remains in this state.[1] Verbs ending in ŏō, such as haimatŏō (turn into blood), thaumatŏō (fill with wonder), spodŏōmai (burn to ashes) frequently express the full intensity of the action. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action. (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b.)

And they do use the words "sacred mysteries" a lot in the online Mass. Seems you're ignoring that fact.
Sacred Mysteries include everything that we don't understand about God and His nature and will - such as the Trinity.
There is nothing cryptic or shadowy about Sacred Mystery.
 

BreadOfLife

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And I think in order to translate that way, one would have to ignore the verse that says all have fallen short of the Glory of God. Since Jesus was God he is included but Mary is not. So that particular "sacred mystery" goes against scripture:

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
WHY would one have to "ignore" that verse?
YOUR problem is that you don't understand it.

In Rom. 3:23, Paul is using inclusive lanvuage here. If I were to tell you that EVERYONE in town showed up for the fireworks show - does that mean EVERY single person? EVERY baby and siclkly, bedridden person? EVERY nurse and doctor working in the hospital?

Paul is referencing Psalm 14, which speaks pof the FOOLS and the WICKED. THEY have all sinned. Verse 5 of that Psalm states that "God is present in the company of the RIGHTEOUS".
Gee - and I thought you said that NONE were righteous??

In Matt. 2:3 - it says that Herod was "greatly disturbed" at the news of the birth of Jesus - "and ALL of Jerusalem with him".
REALY?? ALL of Jerusalem was "disturbed" about this? EVERY baby was disturbed?
EVERY mentally retarded person? EVERY deaf and blind person? They ALL knew about Jesus being a King?

Again - YOUR problem is that you soimply DON'T unseerdtand the inclusive language that is sometimes used in Scripture - even though you probably use it in your own life.
 

dev553344

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WHY would one have to "ignore" that verse?
YOUR problem is that you don't understand it.

In Rom. 3:23, Paul is using inclusive lanvuage here. If I were to tell you that EVERYONE in town showed up for the fireworks show - does that mean EVERY single person? EVERY baby and siclkly, bedridden person? EVERY nurse and doctor working in the hospital?

Paul is referencing Psalm 14, which speaks pof the FOOLS and the WICKED. THEY have all sinned. Verse 5 of that Psalm states that "God is present in the company of the RIGHTEOUS".
Gee - and I thought you said that NONE were righteous??

In Matt. 2:3 - it says that Herod was "greatly disturbed" at the news of the birth of Jesus - "and ALL of Jerusalem with him".
REALY?? ALL of Jerusalem was "disturbed" about this? EVERY baby was disturbed?
EVERY mentally retarded person? EVERY deaf and blind person? They ALL knew about Jesus being a King?

Again - YOUR problem is that you soimply DON'T unseerdtand the inclusive language that is sometimes used in Scripture - even though you probably use it in your own life.
Anyone can understand that verse. It's plainly written. What I will not do is twist it into a lie.
 

Illuminator

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Anyone can understand that verse. It's plainly written. What I will not do is twist it into a lie.
No priest would ever say that Mary cleanses us from sin, that contradicts everyting the Church teaches. You cite no source to support your slanderous LIE. Not only that, but the Bible does also not say "all" means "every single one", so you are subtracting what the Bible actually means. Here are some examples of how you twist "all" into a lie:

Rom. 3:23 – Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But “all have sinned ” only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 – “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 – finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”

1 Cor. 15:22 – in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 – Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 – here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 – Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 – this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God. (Calvin was wrong)

Psalm 53:1-3 – “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 18:19 – Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 – God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 – Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 – Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

Devin, your nearsighted view of one verse doesn't hold water.
 

dev553344

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No priest would ever say that Mary cleanses us from sin, that contradicts everyting the Church teaches. You cite no source to support your slanderous LIE. Not only that, but the Bible does also not say "all" means "every single one", so you are subtracting what the Bible actually means. Here are some examples of how you twist "all" into a lie:

Rom. 3:23 – Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But “all have sinned ” only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 – “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 – finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”

1 Cor. 15:22 – in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 – Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 – here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 – Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 – this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God. (Calvin was wrong)

Psalm 53:1-3 – “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 18:19 – Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 – God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 – Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 – Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

Devin, your nearsighted view of one verse doesn't hold water.
Interesting, as the Catholics are not the only church that ignores key scripture to promote their beliefs. There are a few of them. Which makes me think, why do people hang on to these "revelations" or "traditions" when the bible clearly points out differently. And when questioned, these churches twist scripture into their ideas to support their beliefs. And that is nothing new I think.
 
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