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Discussion in 'The Church Forum' started by Josho, Jun 5, 2017.

  1. Josho

    Josho Well-Known Member Encounter Team

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    This is not a debate thread, but is a thread where we could learn more about Catholics, these are all pretty basic questions I'm starting this thread of with, but I think a lot of us other Christians have been taught wrongly about the Catholics. Now i would rather hear from Catholics themselves, about what are the differences between Catholics to other Christians are? What makes a Catholic a Catholic? What are the traditions in the Catholic Church? What's the significance of Mary the mother of Jesus to the Catholics? When did the Catholic Church start? What were the original Catholics like compared to today?

    Others please feel free to ask questions to our Catholic members on this forum as well, but please try not to turn this into a debate..... If that's possible. Lets give the Catholics a fair go.
     
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  2. tabletalk

    tabletalk Well-Known Member

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    Why did the Catholic Church remove the penalty of Excommunication from the Anathemas of the Council of Trent (and other Anathemas, as well)?
     
  3. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Here is a summary of the main points of an article on this by the Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin.

    Originally excommunication and anathema were the same thing. The term anathema has been used for the dogmatic statements of Ecumenical Councils. Over time a distinction was made between excommunication and anathema, the latter being a solemn ceremony performed by the Pope using "bell, book and candle". However such anathemas were very rare and it was removed from the 1983 Code of Canon Law.

    The phrase anathema sit was used as part of the solemn declaration of a dogma, such as happened at Trent. Such a definition was made infallibly and still applies today. Such dogmas cannot be obdurately doubted or denied without committing heresy, which carries an automatic penalty of excommunication. This however only applies to those who are (or have been) Catholics, and even then there are exceptions.
     
  4. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    Paul used the term anathema in Galatians 1:8.
    IT ONLY APPLIED TO CATHOLICS. The much touted Council of Trent does not apply to non-Catholics.
    As Mungo said the term anathema is no longer used.
    These anathemas were not thought of as damning a person to hell. That’s something only God can do. (Though the fact someone needed to be excommunicated was not considered a good sign for the state of his soul.)
    The penalty of anathema, like all excommunications, was medicinal and meant to prompt the person to repent.
    The canons from the ecumenical councils that use the formula "anathema sit" continue to express theological truths in an infallible manner, and you can still get excommunicated for teaching heresy. The special, ceremonial form of excommunication known as "anathema" is what’s gone.

    In the 1983 Code of Canon Law (CIC) eight other sins (besides intentional murder of an unborn baby) carry the penalty of automatic excommunication: apostasy, heresy, schism (CIC 1364:1), violating the sacred species (CIC 1367), physically attacking the pope (CIC 1370:1), sacramentally absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin (CIC 1378:1), consecrating a bishop without authorization (CIC 1382), and directly violating the seal of confession (1388:1).

    It is important to note that the only cases where formal excommunication has been used in recent history are by those bishops who have had the courage to stand up and do something to stop the confusion in the Church at least within their own diocese.
     
  5. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    She didn't. The canons from the ecumenical councils that use the formula "anathema sit" continue to express theological truths in an infallible manner, and you can still get excommunicated for teaching heresy. The special, ceremonial form of excommunication known as "anathema" is what’s gone.
     
  6. twinc

    twinc Well-Known Member

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    according to and in compliance with Vatican I Canon para 5 many Catholics are under anathema but do not know or accept that this is so - twinc
     
  7. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    rwinc, anathema's do not exist anymore. They were abolished in the 1983 Code of Canon Law when it went into effect on Jan1 1983.
     
  8. tabletalk

    tabletalk Well-Known Member

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    Does that mean the Council of Trent anathemas do not apply to Protestants?
     
  9. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they ever did. Remember that they were a enacted by a solemn pontifical ceremony of which very few took place. If and when they did take place it would have been against Catholics who denied these truths and yet stayed within the Catholic Community. You cannot ex-communicate someone who is not actually in communion. I think Martin Luther and his immediate followers were officially ex-communicated as heretics after giving them time to recant, but then they were Catholics.
     
  10. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    This topic would be like a summit discussion of each part of the body: the toes discussing with the fingers, their respective rolls, etc..

    If we are one body (of Christ), it is important to understand that there are different denominations (including Catholics) who know and are known by our Lord Jesus Christ, and there are also those who profess to know the Lord but do not, nor are they known by Him. Among the body, our denominational differences are not disunity, but rather, the result of the different spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit intentionally assigned by God for different service. We are a body of many different members, each doing our part. Seeing eye to eye is not actually required. What is required, however, is that we love one another.

    The frustrating part for me, is that while it is not important to see eye to eye, it would be nice to be in agreement, to be of one mind, as it were. That day shall come. Meanwhile, much of the debate that we all engage in, is an attempt to inch toward that goal - which is good. But none of the gains we make are according to our timing, but rather to God's timing. That's the frustrating part. Each of us has a unique perspective and vantage point afforded us by our assigned positions in the body...and you would think that we could share the truth that is only visible from our perspective and get a welcome reception from our other members...but, NO...the eyes do not hear, and the ears do not see - nor are they even open to doing so. Too bad.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  11. Job

    Job Well-Known Member

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    I would like to know why there's an Egyptian idol that is dedicated to the sun god Ra sitting in the center of St. Peter Square? And why is there a cross at the top of it?
     
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  12. twinc

    twinc Well-Known Member

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    it is self explanatory - the cross is at the top - twinc
     
  13. Job

    Job Well-Known Member

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    No it's not. What's the purpose of the cross?
     
  14. Josho

    Josho Well-Known Member Encounter Team

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    What's the process in becoming a Catholic & being recognized as one? Is it as hard as others make it sound? And why do Catholics go confessing sins to the bishop instead of confessing sins straight to God and asking for God's forgiveness themselves?

    Why do Catholics beat themselves during penitence? Do they still do that?

    What's the difference between a rosary and just wearing a cross around your neck?
     
  15. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    How do you know it is dedicated to the sun god Ra since it has no hieroglyphics on it?

    One source says it has quarried at Aswan in the reign of Nebkaure Amenemhet II (B.C. 19th Century), and erected at the pylon of the Temple of the Sun in Heliopolis. Another source says that although it's unknown when it was quarried but it was erected at the Julian Forum in Alexandria by the order of Octavianus (the first Roman Emperor Augustus [reigned B.C. 27 - A.D. 14]).

    This obelisk, like two others Esquilino Obelisk and Quirinale Obelisk, does not have the usual hieroglyphics, and no one knows where it originally came from or who created it. There are various opinions why it has no hieroglyphics; because the Egyptian Pharaoh suddenly dead, or because the Roman Emperor made it, .....

    In A.D. 37 (40?), the then Roman Emperor Caligula transported it to Rome, and erected it in the Caligula Circus (later the Nero Circus (Circus Gai et Neronis), or the Vatican Circus). This site is the side of current St. Peter's Cathedral.

    Time elapsed ....., the then Pope Sixtus V [reigned 1585-1590] directed the obelisk to be re-erected at the center of the colonnaded square, so-called St. Peter's Square in 1586, in front of the "new" Basilica of St. Peter, which was under construction at that time. It still remains there today.

    Except for this obelisk, all the obelisks in Rome toppled down in the Middle Ages. The Egyptologist Labib Habachi writes a reason in his book; "Legend has it that in the Vatican Circus innumerable Christians, including St. Peter, were put to death and that the reason this obelisk was not later overturned as were all the others in Rome was that it was looked upon as the last witness to the martyrdom of St. Peter."
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  16. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    I'm not very knowledgeable on this but I'll tell you what I know. Another Catholic may well correct me.

    It depends on whether you are already a baptised Christian or not (and whether you are an adult or not) But there will be a period of catechesis.
    For unbaptised adults there is a programme called the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) leading up to Easter when (traditionally) new Christinas are brought into the Church and baptised.

    For baptised adults there will also be a period of catechesis and then a formal but simple ceremony. This happened at the Mass I went to on Sunday.
     
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  17. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    There was a tradition that during saying the Confiteor (I confess) we struck our breasts when confessing we are sinners, during the words through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. I don't know the origin of this but it probably comes from the actions of the tax collector:
    "But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'"(Lk 18:13).
    It's still in the rubrics but I guess it varies as to whether people actually do this anymore.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
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  18. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Some (many?) Catholics wear a cross around the neck (visibly or invisibly) as a sign that they are Christians. When I put mine on each morning its a reminder to give the day to Christ. At least it should be but often I'm in a hurry or distracted and I'm just on autopilot.

    A rosary is not something one would normally wear. It's an aid when praying the rosary, or indeed some other prayers.
     
  19. Josho

    Josho Well-Known Member Encounter Team

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    So what's the rosary? Why pray the rosary?
     
  20. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    There are two things we call the rosary.
    Firstly the set of prayers which are meditations on the life of Christ.
    Secondly the set of beads that are used to keep count.

    The origins of the rosary go back to the time when priests and religious recited all 150 psalms over the week. Poor people, unable to read said 150 “Our Father’s” instead, using knotted cords or beads on cords. The Our Father in Latin is Paternoster and there is still a street in London called Paternoster Row, where such beaded cords were made. When devotion to Mary grew the original greeting of Gabriel to Mary was used expressed as “Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee”. Later Elizabeth’s greeting was added (Lk 1:42) and then other words added until we get the Hail Mary as we know it today. In the15th century the idea of meditating on the events of Christ’s life was introduced and the beads divided into sets of 10. It gradually evolved to what we have today which is a meditation on the life of Christ. During each set of twelve prayers (Our Father, 10*Hail Mary, Glory be..) we meditate on a particular event in Christ's life - the Annunciation, Birth, Passion, Death, Resurrection, etc.

    The DirectoryOn Popular Piety says
    The Rosary is essentially a contemplative prayer, which requires "tranquillity of rhythm or even a mental lingering which encourages the faithful to meditate on the mysteries of the Lord's life"
     
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