Charismata and Church Doctrine

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rockytopva

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Most Charismatics are not heavy on the church doctrine. On comparing several Charismatic doctrines I end up with a list that normally includes these doctrinal statements.

1. Belief in the trinity
2. Focus on God's word
3. Separation of sin, reconciliation through Christ... Salvation through faith.
4. Christ, born of the Virgin Mary
5. Water baptism is a symbol of our faith in Christ
6. Growing relationship with the Holy Spirit
7. Sanctification as a process
8. Holy Communion in remembrance of Christ
9. Transformation, healing, financial blessings are something God wants to do for us.
10. Jesus is coming again just like he promised.

Very few stress any more that what was listed. Very few mention anything of the old Calvin/Arminius arguments. And very few mention anything of whether Christ returns is pre- post- or mid-trib. I went to a Charismatic church and the list was even shorter than that. I said to an elder, there is not much doctrine here! In which he smiled and said.... We like it that way!
 

rockytopva

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In which, if you are filled with the Holy Spirit and faith there is little need to be worried about the tribs or the eternal security. Your ways will carry you through, as long as you stay in the Spirit and in faith.
 
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OzSpen

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rockytopva said:
Most Charismatics are not heavy on the church doctrine. On comparing several Charismatic doctrines I end up with a list that normally includes these doctrinal statements.

1. Belief in the trinity
2. Focus on God's word
3. Separation of sin, reconciliation through Christ... Salvation through faith.
4. Christ, born of the Virgin Mary
5. Water baptism is a symbol of our faith in Christ
6. Growing relationship with the Holy Spirit
7. Sanctification as a process
8. Holy Communion in remembrance of Christ
9. Transformation, healing, financial blessings are something God wants to do for us.
10. Jesus is coming again just like he promised.

Very few stress any more that what was listed. Very few mention anything of the old Calvin/Arminius arguments. And very few mention anything of whether Christ returns is pre- post- or mid-trib. I went to a Charismatic church and the list was even shorter than that. I said to an elder, there is not much doctrine here! In which he smiled and said.... We like it that way!
Rocky,

I have attended and taught in a Pentecostal Bible College in Australia and there was certainly an emphasis on the full range of theological topics. It sided with Arminianism and was dispensational premill, pretrib (I'm not of that eschatological view). However, there was openness to any of these views. People were not frowned on if they were Calvinistic or amill, post-trib. Preterism would not have been accepted.

I took my first degree (BA in biblical literature and NT Greek) at a Pentecostal College in the USA, so that college promoted sound exegesis, using the original languages.

To your list of theological topics above I would add:
  • Charismatics are not cessationists. They believe in the continuation of the full range of gifts of the Spirit (charismata).
  • The health-wealth (healing, financial blessings) theology is associated with some charismatic churches, generally Word of Faith, especially with those who follow the teachings of Kenneth Hagin or Kenneth Copeland. I do not support that view for biblical reasons. See my article: 'Double faults and not aces: Margaret Court'.
Oz
 
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rockytopva

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I do not wish to imply that Charismatic/Pentecostal people are stupid... But we do not wish to waste time arguing doctrine. It quickly gets to the point where we raise our hands and declare, "Enough!" Most Charismatic churches emphasize the faith and the life walk. Our churches are places where you can go and find encouragement.

It is also an annoyance when you have protestant denominational folk trying to figure it all out. The doctrines of the second coming and eternal security for example. I do not think that it is the will of God for us to know everything! If the times and the seasons are not for us to know why are we trying to figure out things not intended for us to know? RW Schambach use to try put up with people wanting to argue his faith stand. And after listening to many sermons... He would tell folk...

1. If you don't believe in healing... Stay sick!
2. If you don't believe in prosperity... Stay poor!
3. If you don't believe in faith... Stay in your unbelief!

But just don't mess with my faith! The last thing he would want to do is hang around and debate with people.
 

rockytopva

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13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. - James 3
 

Wormwood

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Rocky,

The charismatic movement emerged out of the Holiness movement via Wesley that sought to combat the nominalism of his day and push for a more experiential and holiness-producing walk with God. So, although the charismatic movement tends to emphasize more of Wesley's experiental emphasis rather than his doctrinal and disciplinary focus, the entire movement is based on a free-will/Arminian paradigm.

RW Schambach use to try put up with people wanting to argue his faith stand. And after listening to many sermons... He would tell folk...
1. If you don't believe in healing... Stay sick!
2. If you don't believe in prosperity... Stay poor!
3. If you don't believe in faith... Stay in your unbelief!
But just don't mess with my faith! The last thing he would want to do is hang around and debate with people.
The problem I have with this type of "preaching" is that it implies that sickness and poverty are the results of unbelief and that belief is focused on personal faith to change circumstances rather than faith in Christ regardless of my circumstances. Much of the early church was sick, poor, and outcast and it wasnt because of their lack of faith. Rather, it was because they were faithful that they suffered as they did. This is what the book of Revelation is all about! It is a message to the church that the reason they are suffering is not because God has abandoned them, but because they are under attack by an enemy that is testing their faithfulness. Thus, they are to look to Jesus and his suffering under trial and follow that example, even to death. Then they would recieve a crown of life.

The fact of the matter is, doctrine matters. Paul told Timothy to watch his faith and doctrine closely so he could save both himself and his hearers. If we put our faith in the wrong things or get our doctrine twisted, it can have devistating effects on our lives. My wife was part of a charistmatic church (I am not trying to be sterotypical, but just recounting an example in my own life) and of all the passionate believers she knew in that fellowship, perhaps one or two still claim to be Christian. They focused so much on experience and feelings in the moment that they were never really grounded in the word and taught to believe in the truth of God's word and built up in healthy doctrine. Rather they focused on personal revelations, experiences, striving for immediate aches and pains to be cured and so forth. Even the daughter of the pastor of the church now believes multiple religions are likely true.

Again, I am not saying this is true of all charismatics. However, to say doctrine isnt significant is like saying we enjoy baking but dont want to hassle with recipes because some argue about which is better. Its unfortunate that Christians divide over unessentials, but we must not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because something is abused does not mean it should be done away with. I agree we shouldnt seek to debate for the sake of debate, but Paul sure spent a lot of time debating issues of truth, doctrine and Christian practice. That is pretty much what the entire NT consists of...correcting wrong thinking about Jesus, the Gospel, and church practice. If someone is a teacher and doesnt feel compelled to defend the rationale for his teaching and guidance in the lives of others, something is deeply wrong. I have found some charismatic leaders to be quick to label themselves as apostles and prophets, but then if you question them on something they are teaching, they try to pull rank with their titles and experiences rather than trying to explain why their teaching is biblically sound. To me, that is a red flag. Paul sought to show people through the Scriptures what he was saying was true. If someone is a teacher and they just expect people to follow them and are unwilling to defend their doctrine and teaching, then it would raise a lot of red flags for me.