kiwimac
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The laws of physics, chemistry and biology are the means by which God made all that is. Genesis 1-3 are parable not history. They are not about HOW but WHY.
Christian Doctrine of Creation ?
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Then Christ was either a liar or lunatic since He taught the actual historicity of the Genesis account.
What it comes down to is this:
When you as a human being feel qualifieed to state that some things in the Bible are just as the Bible says and some things are not - and worse - you feel qualified to identify what they are, you have crossed a line which you are not qualified to cross.
Non-Christians use the same "science and technology show that could never have happened" to attempt to discredit scores of miracles and miraculous event throughout the Bible.
And they miss the point entirely: God Almighty is not bound by the laws of science, nature, or technology. These miraculous events glorify Him.
When you as a human being feel qualifieed to state that some things in the Bible are just as the Bible says and some things are not - and worse - you feel qualified to identify what they are, you have crossed a line which you are not qualified to cross.
Non-Christians use the same "science and technology show that could never have happened" to attempt to discredit scores of miracles and miraculous event throughout the Bible.
And they miss the point entirely: God Almighty is not bound by the laws of science, nature, or technology. These miraculous events glorify Him.
As with Christ, I'm only interested in the New Creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth we have been born into. Nothing of this natural existence of this natural old heavens and earth are of concern to Christ or the Saints. The "creation" as referred to below is the "new creation" in Christ's blood and has nothing to do with the physical "that passes away" (Heb 1). Only the spiritually depraved concern themselves with the Genesis account while overlooking the REAL meaning of Creation.
If we aren't of the Firstborn from the dead New Creation, nothing we argue about has any interest to God or the sons of God.
(Rev 3:14)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
(Col 1:13)
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(Col 1:14)
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(Col 1:15)
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
If we aren't of the Firstborn from the dead New Creation, nothing we argue about has any interest to God or the sons of God.
(Rev 3:14)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
(Col 1:13)
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(Col 1:14)
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(Col 1:15)
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. Mark 10:5-6
And he answered and said unto them, Have all of you not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female Matthew 19:4
teamventure
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why do you care if you don't support the validity of scrip0ture? don't you belong in an atheiest/agnostic message board?
I SUPPORT EVERYTHING WITH SCRIPTURE (ITS THE LACK OF OR THE MISINTEPRETATION THAT SEEMS TO ACCOMPANY MUCH FUNDAMENTALISM HERE)
teamventure
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look, using all capitol letters doesn't help me read your posts any better. i have read several posts where you try to show contradictions in the Bible so you're not fooling me.
moving along, on what do many here misinterpret?
has anyone shown creation from the difference between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2? it could help to explain the time gap in the evolution theory. if it has already been stated then i am sorry and you can disregard what is posted here. here are my thoughts.
this is how i look at creation. there are more scripture to point at this but here is about half that i have come up with.
if you look up the two words formless(empty waste-#8414 strongs) and void(emptiness and ruin-#922 strongs) you will see that tells us God created empty waste and ruin.
no there was a happening that took place between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2. we need to understand this in order to get the big picture of things. now to my understanding everything Jesus talks about that is made by God is good. God is life. so if God created this then it is the first thing God created that was a ruin and empty waste. so i can only assume that God did not create it this way. is 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. vain(#8414 strongs) this shows that when God created the heavens and the earth that God did not create it empty or wasteful but created it to be inhabited. gen 1:2 and is 45:18 are a contradiction because gen 1:1 shows God created the heavens and the earth and then in gen 1:2 it says God created it as a empty waste/ruin but is 45:18 says it was not created an empty waste. so what happened?
jer 4 shows jeremiah having a vision of what will happen if isreal does not turn back to him. verse 23 says I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. we have the same words(without form and void)being used here as in gen 1:2. so jeremiah is seeing the same picture that was in gen 1:2. so what happened and what is this all about? if you know the character of God you know something is wrong to say God created something a waste, ruin, uninhabitable. God is the God of life and what you see in Gen 1:2 is death which is totally contrary to the character of God. so something happened between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2.
this is when satan fell. gen 1:1 was created before lucifer sinned. the original earth was created for lucifer and in gen 1:2 it is destroyed. gen 1:3 is not the creation but the recreation for man. scriptural references for proof are: gen 1:28 says And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. now how can you replenish something that has never been plenished in the first place? right here he shows that there was an original life on the earth and that they were to reestablish a new life on this earth. is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! what nations is he talking about? there had to be nations affected by his fall. is 14:13 says For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven(this part tells us that he was not in heaven when this all dawned on him), I will exalt my throne above the stars of God(this shows us that there were stars already in heaven at this time): I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds(so there were clouds in heaven too); I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. ez 28 is a prophesy against the king of tyrus but is also talking about lucifer because of verse 12 forward because no human being can fulfill that. a double prophesy is taking place here. verse 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty(no human being outside of adam and eve can fit this description and this verse is not talking of adam). 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God(only one person outside of adam and eve was in the garden and that was lucifer); every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub(no human being has ever been a cherub) that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God(no human has ever been on god's holy mountain so it is easy to say that this was lucifer); thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise(where did he get trade) they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings(what kings?), that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people(what people?) shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. the word foundation is a poor meaning of the greek word katbole which speaks of overthrow and casting down. so if the translators had translated the word correctly Jesus then referred to gen 1:1 and gen 1:2 as an overthrow or casting down of the world system at some point.
one last point gen 1:2 the word was is used many times in scripture and means to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out. it does not talk about what was but what transpired to be. so if read like this: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. so when was becomes became then the verse makes sense.
this could also explain the time difference of how dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. no scripture to back it up but it makes sense.
hope this helped
God bless
this is how i look at creation. there are more scripture to point at this but here is about half that i have come up with.
if you look up the two words formless(empty waste-#8414 strongs) and void(emptiness and ruin-#922 strongs) you will see that tells us God created empty waste and ruin.
no there was a happening that took place between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2. we need to understand this in order to get the big picture of things. now to my understanding everything Jesus talks about that is made by God is good. God is life. so if God created this then it is the first thing God created that was a ruin and empty waste. so i can only assume that God did not create it this way. is 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. vain(#8414 strongs) this shows that when God created the heavens and the earth that God did not create it empty or wasteful but created it to be inhabited. gen 1:2 and is 45:18 are a contradiction because gen 1:1 shows God created the heavens and the earth and then in gen 1:2 it says God created it as a empty waste/ruin but is 45:18 says it was not created an empty waste. so what happened?
jer 4 shows jeremiah having a vision of what will happen if isreal does not turn back to him. verse 23 says I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. we have the same words(without form and void)being used here as in gen 1:2. so jeremiah is seeing the same picture that was in gen 1:2. so what happened and what is this all about? if you know the character of God you know something is wrong to say God created something a waste, ruin, uninhabitable. God is the God of life and what you see in Gen 1:2 is death which is totally contrary to the character of God. so something happened between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2.
this is when satan fell. gen 1:1 was created before lucifer sinned. the original earth was created for lucifer and in gen 1:2 it is destroyed. gen 1:3 is not the creation but the recreation for man. scriptural references for proof are: gen 1:28 says And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. now how can you replenish something that has never been plenished in the first place? right here he shows that there was an original life on the earth and that they were to reestablish a new life on this earth. is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! what nations is he talking about? there had to be nations affected by his fall. is 14:13 says For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven(this part tells us that he was not in heaven when this all dawned on him), I will exalt my throne above the stars of God(this shows us that there were stars already in heaven at this time): I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds(so there were clouds in heaven too); I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. ez 28 is a prophesy against the king of tyrus but is also talking about lucifer because of verse 12 forward because no human being can fulfill that. a double prophesy is taking place here. verse 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty(no human being outside of adam and eve can fit this description and this verse is not talking of adam). 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God(only one person outside of adam and eve was in the garden and that was lucifer); every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub(no human being has ever been a cherub) that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God(no human has ever been on god's holy mountain so it is easy to say that this was lucifer); thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise(where did he get trade) they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings(what kings?), that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people(what people?) shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. the word foundation is a poor meaning of the greek word katbole which speaks of overthrow and casting down. so if the translators had translated the word correctly Jesus then referred to gen 1:1 and gen 1:2 as an overthrow or casting down of the world system at some point.
one last point gen 1:2 the word was is used many times in scripture and means to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out. it does not talk about what was but what transpired to be. so if read like this: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. so when was becomes became then the verse makes sense.
this could also explain the time difference of how dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. no scripture to back it up but it makes sense.
hope this helped
God bless
kiwimac
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Jesus was both God and FULLY human which means he really was a Jew of his time and culture. Does not mean that Genesis 1-3 are actual history.
Surprise, not ALL... theologians believe a literal 6 day 24hr period creation. There's been quite a few excellent Christian Bible scholars that understood what I'm saying. E.W. Bullinger was one of them.
The 6 days of Genesis 1 is a refreshing, not a creation from nothing. At Genesis 1:1 is when God first created the heavens and the earth. At Genesis 1:2 He shows it had become a waste and a ruin, the ACTUAL Hebrew meaning of the phrase translated "without form, and void".
Adam was indeed formed at approximately 4004 B.C. on God's sixth day. That's per Bishop Ussher's chronolgy in the 17th century, his starting from Christ and going back through all the begats to Adam per his Annals. He had to stop with the man Adam because there was no further record in The Bible for man's years.
Have you figured out yet that I do NOT believe in some 100,000 year creation idea? But I do believe each Day does represent a thousand year period each...
What would happen if we take the time of Adam's forming, and treat each one of God's days as a literal thousand year period per 2 Pet.3:8?
(10,000 B.C. - end of the "world that then was")
9004 B.C. - 1st day ("the heavens and the earth which are now")
8004 B.C. - 2nd day
7004 B.C. - 3rd day
6004 B.C. - 4th day
5004 B.C. - 5th day
4004 B.C. - 6th day; Adam formed - 7th Period from the destruction
3004 B.C.
2004 B.C.
1004 B.C.
4 A.D. - Christ born
1004 A.D.
2004 A.D. - roughly now.
3004 A.D. - Christ's Millennium Reign - 7th Period from Adam
4004 A.D. - (New Heavens and a New Earth)
From our times back to God's 1st Day is roughly 11,000 years ago. In a National Geographic I read a few years ago, they speculated that the last ice age on earth was around 11,000 to 18,000 years ago.
I'm not fan of National Geographic by the way. Too much evolution theory in it, i.e., pseudo-science.
I believe the dinosaurs actually date back to that 10,000 B.C. period, not millions of years ago.
No one can determine exactly when God FIRST created the heavens and the earth at Gen.1:1, a Perfect earth, a literal Paradise over all of it (as per the fossil remains).
The Hebrew of Gen.1 is pointing to this; Jeremiah 4:23-28 is pointing to this; and Paul in Romans 8 is pointing to this, as also at the end of Hebrews 12, and 2 Peter 3 is pointing to it. God hints at it in the last chapters of Job also. And the earth's fossil record points to it.
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