Christian in name only, Christian sinners, and Christian saints

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Always Believing

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These are the three categories of Christians that I see in the Bible and have seen in Christian religion.

Christians in name only are those that name His name but have no thought of stop sinning, and don't seek forgiveness for sinning by confession from the heart. They have religious practices only.

Christian sinners I think are the great majority who know we ought not to sin and don't like sinning, but still do on an intermittent basis, which is when they do they stop and ask Jesus to forgive them from the heart. These find themselves at times in the double mindedness or absent mindedness of Romans 7.

Christian saints have moved on to Romans 8 and have no more condemnation of the works of the flesh to continue to confess and repent of, and are continually walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh, because they have learned to go go beyond such works by becoming fast and ready best friends with Jesus as their best Friend on earth. He is not only Lord, Savior, and Forgiver of sins, but is now 'man's Best Friend'. That is where the law against the works of the flesh has no more place between best friends and married couples who love one another from the heart, and don't need the law against thieving and adultery to warn them against betraying their friendship and marriage.

For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
(Ephesians 5.29-32)

When we leave off going to law and matters of the flesh, in order to just seek and find Jesus as our best friend, then such things that the world argues over to do or not pass away without a second thought nor looking back to Egypt.

"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." (John 15.13-14)

The Christians in name only are the ones not even saved in the first place. The matter between Christian sinners and saints is just one of of blessedness in Christian living, whether believing Jesus for forgiveness of sins while hating it when we do sin, or walking with Jesus in the Spirit as best friends daily.

As the song goes, that's when the saints know it's one day at a time sweet friend Jesus.

Let the saints be joyful in glory; Let them sing aloud on their beds. (Psalm 149.5)

I was never in category one, and most of the time in category two, and now very recently entering into category three by a great point made by Michiah-Imla to remember how Christ suffered for your salvation and suddenly all the problems you face will become trivial.

Christ suffered and died for us to fellowship with us and be best friends with us, not just to be forgiving us of sinning when we do whether 7 times or 70 times 7 times. Christian sinners know well that Christian life as I did, but only the saints can know Jesus as a best friend that needs no law nor works to be repented of.
 
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robert derrick

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Interesting. I think it's a fair summary for unsaved Christians in name only, double minded Christians of Romans 7, and Christian saints of Romans 8.

What about the double minded Christian that is committing a work of the flesh? Would you say a Christian that is drunk and/or fornicating is not of the devil, but is still a born son of God while doing so?
 

Matthias

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Don’t be a CHINO. It doesn’t end well for imposters.
 

Robert Gwin

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These are the three categories of Christians that I see in the Bible and have seen in Christian religion.

Christians in name only are those that name His name but have no thought of stop sinning, and don't seek forgiveness for sinning by confession from the heart. They have religious practices only.

Christian sinners I think are the great majority who know we ought not to sin and don't like sinning, but still do on an intermittent basis, which is when they do they stop and ask Jesus to forgive them from the heart. These find themselves at times in the double mindedness or absent mindedness of Romans 7.

Christian saints have moved on to Romans 8 and have no more condemnation of the works of the flesh to continue to confess and repent of, and are continually walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh, because they have learned to go go beyond such works by becoming fast and ready best friends with Jesus as their best Friend on earth. He is not only Lord, Savior, and Forgiver of sins, but is now 'man's Best Friend'. That is where the law against the works of the flesh has no more place between best friends and married couples who love one another from the heart, and don't need the law against thieving and adultery to warn them against betraying their friendship and marriage.

For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
(Ephesians 5.29-32)

When we leave off going to law and matters of the flesh, in order to just seek and find Jesus as our best friend, then such things that the world argues over to do or not pass away without a second thought nor looking back to Egypt.

"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." (John 15.13-14)

The Christians in name only are the ones not even saved in the first place. The matter between Christian sinners and saints is just one of of blessedness in Christian living, whether believing Jesus for forgiveness of sins while hating it when we do sin, or walking with Jesus in the Spirit as best friends daily.

As the song goes, that's when the saints know it's one day at a time sweet friend Jesus.

Let the saints be joyful in glory; Let them sing aloud on their beds. (Psalm 149.5)

I was never in category one, and most of the time in category two, and now very recently entering into category three by a great point made by Michiah-Imla to remember how Christ suffered for your salvation and suddenly all the problems you face will become trivial.

Christ suffered and died for us to fellowship with us and be best friends with us, not just to be forgiving us of sinning when we do whether 7 times or 70 times 7 times. Christian sinners know well that Christian life as I did, but only the saints can know Jesus as a best friend that needs no law nor works to be repented of.

There are actually 2 sir Jn 10:16. You have spirit-begotten who have been bought from among mankind to reside in heaven to serve as Kings and Priests in the Kingdom of God, and you have the rest of us that will reside here on earth as citizens of that Kingdom. It is being gathered as we speak AB
 

Always Believing

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Interesting. I think it's a fair summary for unsaved Christians in name only, double minded Christians of Romans 7, and Christian saints of Romans 8.

What about the double minded Christian that is committing a work of the flesh? Would you say a Christian that is drunk and/or fornicating is not of the devil, but is still a born son of God while doing so?
I do not believe Christians that now hate to sin and seek not to sin are of the devil like we used to be, when we used to care only for getting as much pleasure out of sinning as possible. If we are sinning once again the same thing as before, then we are still just as legally guilty of it like anyone else and deserve the punishment for it, but unlike the law and courts of men, we have Jesus to come to with full confession and forgiveness for doing it. We are restored to our fellowship and joy of salvation like any other person on earth that confesses to Jesus for forgiveness of sin.

When we truly hate sinning because we know personally that the sin itself is of the devil and against our Lord and Savior Jesus, then we won't belittle it if we do it as though it was already forgiven or is just a bit of a mistake, but we will be even more sorrowful about it in asking to be forgiven and saved by His great mercy and love. I do not at all believe we are already forgiven of any future sinning or any sinning while we are doing it. If we are sinning in a work of the flesh, then we are not already and still forgiven with fellowship and salvation of Jesus. We're not of the devil like we used to be with gusto for the act, but we're not guiltless while doing it.

Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

For there is no partiality with God.
(Romans 2.4-11)

When it comes to any act of sinning all people are judged the same while doing it because God does not judge one person guilty and not another when doing the same thing. He is also just as merciful and patient with every man to have opportunity to confess to Jesus and be forgiven. God does not judge someone outside the family guilty for an act, but not someone within the family because they are family. That has always been the very worst example of bad and sorry low life judges throughout history, and the Bible condemns it.

You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor. (Leviticus 19.15)

Yet He is not partial to princes, Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor; For they are all the work of His hands. (Job 34.19)
 

Always Believing

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There are actually 2 sir Jn 10:16. You have spirit-begotten who have been bought from among mankind to reside in heaven to serve as Kings and Priests in the Kingdom of God, and you have the rest of us that will reside here on earth as citizens of that Kingdom. It is being gathered as we speak AB
If you want to say Christians in name only are not Christians and shouldn't even name Jesus by name for themselves, then that is true, but the fact remains there are some who name themselves Christians for religious, political, and social purposes only. They make sure their church affiliation nd membership is in good standing. And if you're not interested in the difference between Christian sinners and Christian saints, then that's your option.

And so if you want to say the only difference between Christians is the dead in Christ already present with the Lord, and those of us that are alive and remain on earth, then that is sort of an obvious given. I'm talking about Christians still on earth.
 

Robert Gwin

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If you want to say Christians in name only are not Christians and shouldn't even name Jesus by name for themselves, then that is true, but the fact remains there are some who name themselves Christians for religious, political, and social purposes only. They make sure their church affiliation nd membership is in good standing. And if you're not interested in the difference between Christian sinners and Christian saints, then that's your option.

And so if you want to say the only difference between Christians is the dead in Christ already present with the Lord, and those of us that are alive and remain on earth, then that is sort of an obvious given. I'm talking about Christians still on earth.

Not exactly sir, there are two groups of sheep Jesus has, those he was speaking of when he said Jn 10:16 and sheep that was not of that fold. 2 groups of sheep not 3. I defined them in post #6
 

Always Believing

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Not exactly sir, there are two groups of sheep Jesus has, those he was speaking of when he said Jn 10:16 and sheep that was not of that fold. 2 groups of sheep not 3. I defined them in post #6
The sheep not of the Jewish fold is usually taken to be Gentiles and I see no reason not to agree with that.

And yes I think I did misread you, and I apologize for being sloppy about it and jumped to the conclusion you were speaking of the dead in Christ already in His presence in heaven.

Now I think you are saying there are those Christians today and yesterday who are chosen for the bodily resurrection at His coming, and others who are not and will be left on earth as the natural sheep on the right of the millennial reign. If I am still reading you wrong, then you can show me how.

If that is correct, then what is the criteria between Christians to be chosen for resurrection or not? Are we not all of the same body?

So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. (Eph 2.14)

The middle wall of partition Jesus has broken down is between Jew and Gentile so we are all become one fold grafted into the holy tree of God's Israel on earth.
 
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robert derrick

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I do not believe Christians that now hate to sin and seek not to sin are of the devil like we used to be, when we used to care only for getting as much pleasure out of sinning as possible. If we are sinning once again the same thing as before, then we are still just as legally guilty of it like anyone else and deserve the punishment for it, but unlike the law and courts of men, we have Jesus to come to with full confession and forgiveness for doing it. We are restored to our fellowship and joy of salvation like any other person on earth that confesses to Jesus for forgiveness of sin.

Except for not being of the devil because of the act, and not just because of intention, I agree. Those who think they are not judged guilty also, are those who not only will never cease sinning, but will eventually cease confessing sin and will die in their unconfessed and unforgiven sin. They will not be counted blameless unto the end, and will be with spot and wrinkle at His appearing.


For there is no partiality with God. (Romans 2.4-11)

When it comes to any act of sinning all people are judged the same while doing it because God does not judge one person guilty and not another when doing the same thing. He is also just as merciful and patient with every man to have opportunity to confess to Jesus and be forgiven. God does not judge someone outside the family guilty for an act, but not someone within the family because they are family. That has always been the very worst example of bad and sorry low life judges throughout history, and the Bible condemns it.

You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor. (Leviticus 19.15)

Yet He is not partial to princes, Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor; For they are all the work of His hands. (Job 34.19)

Very good. You don not reach respect of persons with God the Judge, who will judge them rejecting His name differently from them naming His name, when they are doing the exact same thing.

Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?


And so, you teach Christians are of a different spirit than the world when sinning, but are not excused from judgement of the act itself. We disagree on the spirit part, but the resultant teaching is the same: no man is forgiven and saved while committing a sinful work of the flesh.

In this sense all people have an Advocate with the Father to confess sin to Jesus for forgiveness and salvation from sinning.
 

Ronald Nolette

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These are the three categories of Christians that I see in the Bible and have seen in Christian religion.

Christians in name only are those that name His name but have no thought of stop sinning, and don't seek forgiveness for sinning by confession from the heart. They have religious practices only.

Christian sinners I think are the great majority who know we ought not to sin and don't like sinning, but still do on an intermittent basis, which is when they do they stop and ask Jesus to forgive them from the heart. These find themselves at times in the double mindedness or absent mindedness of Romans 7.

Christian saints have moved on to Romans 8 and have no more condemnation of the works of the flesh to continue to confess and repent of, and are continually walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh, because they have learned to go go beyond such works by becoming fast and ready best friends with Jesus as their best Friend on earth. He is not only Lord, Savior, and Forgiver of sins, but is now 'man's Best Friend'. That is where the law against the works of the flesh has no more place between best friends and married couples who love one another from the heart, and don't need the law against thieving and adultery to warn them against betraying their friendship and marriage.

For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
(Ephesians 5.29-32)

When we leave off going to law and matters of the flesh, in order to just seek and find Jesus as our best friend, then such things that the world argues over to do or not pass away without a second thought nor looking back to Egypt.

"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." (John 15.13-14)

The Christians in name only are the ones not even saved in the first place. The matter between Christian sinners and saints is just one of of blessedness in Christian living, whether believing Jesus for forgiveness of sins while hating it when we do sin, or walking with Jesus in the Spirit as best friends daily.

As the song goes, that's when the saints know it's one day at a time sweet friend Jesus.

Let the saints be joyful in glory; Let them sing aloud on their beds. (Psalm 149.5)

I was never in category one, and most of the time in category two, and now very recently entering into category three by a great point made by Michiah-Imla to remember how Christ suffered for your salvation and suddenly all the problems you face will become trivial.

Christ suffered and died for us to fellowship with us and be best friends with us, not just to be forgiving us of sinning when we do whether 7 times or 70 times 7 times. Christian sinners know well that Christian life as I did, but only the saints can know Jesus as a best friend that needs no law nor works to be repented of.

Are you talking about living in sinless perfection in thought word and deed 24/7?
 

robert derrick

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Are you talking about living in sinless perfection in thought word and deed 24/7?
No, only about 18/7. I do sleep every night now that I am near retired., but since no man is sinning while asleep, no matter what dreams may come, then the sinless perfection would still continue through the night.

Having a tempting unrighteous thought in the mind to reject is not sinning, because we are not God in glory who cannot be tempted, and neither was Jesus, who did have every tempting thought the devil could every think up shot through His mind.

The great difference between Jesus and all men, is that all such unholy thoughts were always in one ear and out His other, without doing any of them from His youth to His death. All other men have allowed some thought of unrighteousness to become lust and be drawn away from God to sin by it, and so all men other than Jesus have sinned the same as Adam.

Your false doctrine of teaching tempting thoughts as sinning, is of the devil, and you teach it in order to then justify doing it anyway, since you already say you have sinned by thinking it.

I know Christians that believe drinking wine is a sin, and so when they did drink some wine, they sometimes go ahead and got drunk with wine. They were led to sinning in drunkenness by the false doctrine that teaches wine is sin in itself. Your OSAS perfectionism doctrine of an unholy thought, is that example on steroids.

The perfection of the spirit and mind, where we cannot even be tempted with sin as God on the throne, will only be in the resurrection of the body.

Until then, them with a pure heart and perfect spirit toward God, are not sinning in spirit nor in the flesh: they are sinless in good fellowship and walk with Jesus in the Light, where there is no darkness of sinning with the flesh and in whom there is no sin in the spirit, neither with Jesus nor His brother, friend and saint.
 

Robert Gwin

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The sheep not of the Jewish fold is usually taken to be Gentiles and I see no reason not to agree with that.

And yes I think I did misread you, and I apologize for being sloppy about it and jumped to the conclusion you were speaking of the dead in Christ already in His presence in heaven.

Now I think you are saying there are those Christians today and yesterday who are chosen for the bodily resurrection at His coming, and others who are not and will be left on earth as the natural sheep on the right of the millennial reign. If I am still reading you wrong, then you can show me how.

If that is correct, then what is the criteria between Christians to be chosen for resurrection or not? Are we not all of the same body?

So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. (Eph 2.14)

The middle wall of partition Jesus has broken down is between Jew and Gentile so we are all become one fold grafted into the holy tree of God's Israel on earth.

I will try to do better in identifying those two groups AB: The fold Jesus was talking about were his anointed bride, who are called by many names but they have been called from among Jesus' disciples to reside in heaven with him as Kings and Priests in the Kingdom. The rest and vast majority of Christians will be the ones who inherit the earth as earthly citizens of that Kingdom when it comes. Remember God made the earth for humans, not for them to die and reside in heaven. His purpose for the earth has not changed, it will be accomplished.
 

Always Believing

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Are you talking about living in sinless perfection in thought word and deed 24/7?
I am talking about becoming a friend with Jesus so that we are not just Master and servant and Lawgiver and obeyer, but are best friends where there is no law needed not to forsake and betray Him. It's the same in a marriage of love from the heart where there is no law against adultery needed. This is how I have been able to move on from repeating a work of the flesh in need of forgiveness by confession over and over again. I'm now just not doing them, because I now value my best Friend Jesus more. They say He is Lord of all or not at all, which is true, but that is a lawgiving relationship that did not deliver me from works of the flesh. Being a best friend 24/7 does deliver me, because best friends are 24/7 or not at all.

If you are still doing works of the flesh at times, then you could do well to follow this same path of friendship, so that you don't even have to deal with sinning against your best friend. No man on earth is perfect, because we aren't yet resurrected as Jesus is, and He didn't have resurrection perfection on earth either, because He was also tempted like all men and women on earth whether they are righteous or not, but as best friends we can now live as He did with Him and not give into temptation and sin against Him. It's not sinless perfection, but simply a perfectly good and nonsinning and nonbetraying friendship with Jesus.

As an unbeliever I sinned with the devil as much as I could, and as a believer I used to still sin in works of flesh, but hating it and the devil for seducing me into it again and again in need of forgiveness again and again, but now I just don't do any works of the flesh anymore, because Jesus and I our now fast friends together.

I believe this is what Jesus was praying for to our Father in John 17, that we should be one with them as they are one together: Best of friends.

"Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are." (John 17.11)

We are still in the world but not of the world and friends with the world doing the sinning works of the flesh and of the world.
 

Always Believing

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I will try to do better in identifying those two groups AB: The fold Jesus was talking about were his anointed bride, who are called by many names but they have been called from among Jesus' disciples to reside in heaven with him as Kings and Priests in the Kingdom. The rest and vast majority of Christians will be the ones who inherit the earth as earthly citizens of that Kingdom when it comes. Remember God made the earth for humans, not for them to die and reside in heaven. His purpose for the earth has not changed, it will be accomplished.
The anointed bride is called the anointed body and church of Jesus Christ made of His anointed members in flesh and blood on earth, and we are priests and kings to God now or never.

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. (1 Peter 2.9)

John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

If you don't know that all Christians in the body of Christ are already made kings and priests to God, and don't count yourself as one of them, then I'm afraid you don't count yourself as a Christian saved and known Personally by Jesus, and that is because you obviously don't believe exactly what the Bible says but have your own ideas about things. And if they result in you disclaiming a proper place in the body of Christ, then they definitely aren't any good ideas. You need to follow the good example of Moses and just believe what God says in the Bible and not go by what we prefer to think ourselves.

And Moses said: "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own mind. (Numbers 16.28)

Those not resurrected at Jesus' coming are those counted as unbelievers by Jesus and does not know their names nor them Personally in salvation and eternal life. The natural people left on earth are all counted as unbelievers by Jesus and will be separated by Him on earth into two groups of sheep and goats, and only the sheep will be allowed to remain on earth during His kingdom reign for a thousand years where the lion with lay down by the lamb. Those sheep show they are not believers that knew the Lord Jesus, because they won't even know why He has chosen them apart from the goats, even as the goats won't know why they are separated from the sheep, because they have to ask Him why. Christians are not ignorant of why we are forgiven and saved and part of His body, because we do believe and know Him and so love Him with all the heart and our neighbors as ourselves. The sheep will be the neighborly unbelievers and the goats will be the malicious unbelievers, and Jesus will begin His reign on earth over neighborly and law abiding people only.


Your premise is the problem. Yes it's true that heaven and earth were made for man to live in but not immortal in body, but only as our testing ground to be resurrected from into eternal shame or eternal life with God and the Lamb. I don't read in the Bible where man sinning changed anything on earth or our bodies other than changing ourselves from being born living creations of God into a dead soul and enemy of God. But man didn't change any nature of things on earth by sinning then, than we do now. We can make our conditions worse, but we don't have power to make the nature of things on earth changed for the worse, which includes our mortal bodies made of dust from the beginning.

What you are trying to believe is what is called the 'hope of Adam' to live immortally on this earth, which is of course a false hope when he believed that we can do both good and evil and still live forever as gods on earth. By misconstruing kings and priests of God being in heaven only and immortal natural men on earth, you morph Christian salvation and eternal life into the paganism with the gods on Olympus that also have heroes born on earth and become deified into immortality.

Sincerely, you do need to stop thinking things from your own mind and that of others, and just go by what God says is true in the Bible, because you are certainly interesting but absolutely messed up in your theology. You can certainly believe all that Olympian stuff if you want, and I still enjoy reading it, but I don't believe it for one second. There won't be a race of heroes like Hercules and Gilgamesh and Aeneas on earth during Jesus' reign. They will simply begin as natural mortal neighborly people as today, but will certainly become believers when they see Him on earth to reign over them, and all the resurrected believers will be reigning with Him over nations and cities of their own given to them to reign over by the One Lord and King Jesus.
 

Always Believing

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Except for not being of the devil because of the act, and not just because of intention, I agree. Those who think they are not judged guilty also, are those who not only will never cease sinning, but will eventually cease confessing sin and will die in their unconfessed and unforgiven sin. They will not be counted blameless unto the end, and will be with spot and wrinkle at His appearing.




Very good. You don not reach respect of persons with God the Judge, who will judge them rejecting His name differently from them naming His name, when they are doing the exact same thing.

Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?


And so, you teach Christians are of a different spirit than the world when sinning, but are not excused from judgement of the act itself. We disagree on the spirit part, but the resultant teaching is the same: no man is forgiven and saved while committing a sinful work of the flesh.

In this sense all people have an Advocate with the Father to confess sin to Jesus for forgiveness and salvation from sinning.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 John 2.1-2)

I haven't thought of it that way before but the Bible is speaking of any and all men now have Jesus for an Advocate for forgiveness if they will believe in Him and confess to Him their sins worm the heart. That would make us believers no different than unbelievers in terms of sinning and needing forgiveness through the only Advocate and Savior for all men. I still say that we are not the exact same as unbelievers when doing a work of the flesh, or at least I'm not the same as I was when I used to get all I could without any care for judgment and forgiveness of God. But like all people I certainly didn't enjoy many mornings after.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I am talking about becoming a friend with Jesus so that we are not just Master and servant and Lawgiver and obeyer, but are best friends where there is no law needed not to forsake and betray Him. It's the same in a marriage of love from the heart where there is no law against adultery needed. This is how I have been able to move on from repeating a work of the flesh in need of forgiveness by confession over and over again. I'm now just not doing them, because I now value my best Friend Jesus more. They say He is Lord of all or not at all, which is true, but that is a lawgiving relationship that did not deliver me from works of the flesh. Being a best friend 24/7 does deliver me, because best friends are 24/7 or not at all.

If you are still doing works of the flesh at times, then you could do well to follow this same path of friendship, so that you don't even have to deal with sinning against your best friend. No man on earth is perfect, because we aren't yet resurrected as Jesus is, and He didn't have resurrection perfection on earth either, because He was also tempted like all men and women on earth whether they are righteous or not, but as best friends we can now live as He did with Him and not give into temptation and sin against Him. It's not sinless perfection, but simply a perfectly good and nonsinning and nonbetraying friendship with Jesus.

As an unbeliever I sinned with the devil as much as I could, and as a believer I used to still sin in works of flesh, but hating it and the devil for seducing me into it again and again in need of forgiveness again and again, but now I just don't do any works of the flesh anymore, because Jesus and I our now fast friends together.

I believe this is what Jesus was praying for to our Father in John 17, that we should be one with them as they are one together: Best of friends.

"Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are." (John 17.11)

We are still in the world but not of the world and friends with the world doing the sinning works of the flesh and of the world.

Still didn't answer my question. does all this verbage mean sinless perfection or no? A simple question that requires but a simple answer.
 

robert derrick

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I am talking about becoming a friend with Jesus so that we are not just Master and servant and Lawgiver and obeyer, but are best friends where there is no law needed not to forsake and betray Him. It's the same in a marriage of love from the heart where there is no law against adultery needed. This is how I have been able to move on from repeating a work of the flesh in need of forgiveness by confession over and over again. I'm now just not doing them, because I now value my best Friend Jesus more. They say He is Lord of all or not at all, which is true, but that is a lawgiving relationship that did not deliver me from works of the flesh. Being a best friend 24/7 does deliver me, because best friends are 24/7 or not at all.

If you are still doing works of the flesh at times, then you could do well to follow this same path of friendship, so that you don't even have to deal with sinning against your best friend. No man on earth is perfect, because we aren't yet resurrected as Jesus is, and He didn't have resurrection perfection on earth either, because He was also tempted like all men and women on earth whether they are righteous or not, but as best friends we can now live as He did with Him and not give into temptation and sin against Him. It's not sinless perfection, but simply a perfectly good and nonsinning and nonbetraying friendship with Jesus.

As an unbeliever I sinned with the devil as much as I could, and as a believer I used to still sin in works of flesh, but hating it and the devil for seducing me into it again and again in need of forgiveness again and again, but now I just don't do any works of the flesh anymore, because Jesus and I our now fast friends together.

I believe this is what Jesus was praying for to our Father in John 17, that we should be one with them as they are one together: Best of friends.

"Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are." (John 17.11)

We are still in the world but not of the world and friends with the world doing the sinning works of the flesh and of the world.
I try not to intrude on others when they are replying to earth others, but I did answer the 24/7 question because I thought it was just another foil by OSAS sinners that reject doing righteousness at all times.

I will say that I like your manner of teaching sinlessness on earth better than my own. Your friendship teaching is much easier than mine, because I am drawn to the legal arguments of doctrine of Christ, because my dad was an attorney and I was headed in the direction at one point.

I will keep the teaching by friendship in mind. I like it and want to know more of it by doing it myself with less of a legally saved and justified view. It not only sounds easier, but no doubt is easier to follow, because as you say, who needs law between best friends? The only law therefore of Christ that matters is loving one another and not betray one another, which is done by sinning against Jesus with His worst enemy the devil.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.


This is simply God's Scriptural way of describing best friends, and I really like your insight for John 17, where Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are Best Friends yesterday, today, and forever, and so we must become one more best friend as they are. And once again the image of the Trinity standing smiling broadly arm and arm as Best Friends is much more beautiful and inviting than that of Three Lawgiving Judges that are willing to forgive transgressing their law that they do keep themselves.

Thanks much.
 

Always Believing

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Still didn't answer my question. does all this verbage mean sinless perfection or no? A simple question that requires but a simple answer.
Fair enough. I should have put out an answer clearly first. No I would not agree with that. I say I am not sinning. I also say I do not have lust in my heart to anymore.

The reason I do not agree with your manner of question, is because your words of sinless perfection are misleading in two ways. Sinlessness implies any man can come to a place on earth where sin is no more tempting to him, and so the devil doesn't bother trying to tempt him anymore. Perfection which is taught in the Bible, becomes something different when attached to sinlessness and implies being perfected as in the resurrection. And so I am not sinning and do not have desire to sin in my heart, and so I have a perfect heart toward my friend Jesus and I am not sinning with Him, but I am not sinlessly perfected.

Now you can answer as clearly as you want. Are you still sinning in works of the flesh?
 

Always Believing

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I try not to intrude on others when they are replying to earth others, but I did answer the 24/7 question because I thought it was just another foil by OSAS sinners that reject doing righteousness at all times.

I will say that I like your manner of teaching sinlessness on earth better than my own. Your friendship teaching is much easier than mine, because I am drawn to the legal arguments of doctrine of Christ, because my dad was an attorney and I was headed in the direction at one point.

I will keep the teaching by friendship in mind. I like it and want to know more of it by doing it myself with less of a legally saved and justified view. It not only sounds easier, but no doubt is easier to follow, because as you say, who needs law between best friends? The only law therefore of Christ that matters is loving one another and not betray one another, which is done by sinning against Jesus with His worst enemy the devil.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.


This is simply God's Scriptural way of describing best friends, and I really like your insight for John 17, where Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are Best Friends yesterday, today, and forever, and so we must become one more best friend as they are. And once again the image of the Trinity standing smiling broadly arm and arm as Best Friends is much more beautiful and inviting than that of Three Lawgiving Judges that are willing to forgive transgressing their law that they do keep themselves.

Thanks much.
Thank you too but I can't take credit for it all because I get clued in on it by Michaiah-Imla and then posted a thread on how becoming best friends with Jesus is the best way to stop doing the works of the flesh.
 
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robert derrick

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Thank you too but I can't take credit for it all because I get clued in on it by Michaiah-Imla and then posted a thread on how becoming best friends with Jesus is the best way to stop doing the works of the flesh.
I'll look for it and take a look at it. Keep up the good work. I like it.