Christian Predeterminism Exposed

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Gilligan

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Christians predeterminism, as I understand it from those that teach it, is a kind of no-choice-about-it faith and salvation. God has already decided who will believe Him unto salvation, and who will not.

If it were a simple matter of foreknowing who would and would not, then that is just the omniscience of God. However, I have found that the teaching of predeterminism includes God creating men and women differently. It suggests that God is a respecter of persons. He actually creates and makes some in His image with power to believe and willingness to obey Him, while others are not, or are created of a lesser image of God. It's like God picking and choosing the winners of life's lottery, when He creates us. Those who are determined by God to believe and obey, shall do so, because He creates them that way, and those who are not determined to do so, shall not, because He purposely creates them another lesser way.

I find this most offensive, and an accusation against the God that is love and would have all men to be saved by faith in His Son.

The main verse of the Bible they use most is John 5:16, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

They use this to say we have no individual choice in the matter of believing and being saved, but each person is fated one way or the other. It's the Christian version of pagan divine fatalism, that Jesus Christ came to destroy.

In the verse, Jesus is not saying we have not chosen to believe He is the Christ, but rather we have not chosen Him to be the Christ of God. We must understand old paganism to understand what He was dispelling among His disciples. Pagans believed they could choose from among many gods, the one they most wanted to please and receive blessing and protection from. They could make one god of many into their 'patron god'. Whole cities would do so, such as Ephesus of Diana and Egyptian Thebes of Amun. Catholics have a version of it with patron saints.

What Jesus is telling us, is to not thinks as the pagans think, and suppose we are choosing who is the true Christ and Lord for ourselves, from among many gods, christs and lords. We do not choose Him to ourselves as the best candidate for God's Christ. We are not favoring Him with our own form of election, of who is the best of the gods for us.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

The Jews were trying to do the same thing, by trying to choose Jesus for themselves to be their very own personal king. Jesus would have none of it. Jesus is telling us that we do not choose Him from among other christs and gods to be our King and Lord, but that we are either to believe He is the one and only Christ of God, or not. And so, he chooses them that do believe from the heart, that He is indeed the only true Christ and Lord and Savior for men.

And so, it's not that we have no choice nor say in the matter. God neither creates us different from others to become saved believers, nor does Jesus choose us 'randomly' out of crowd to be His special people. The truth is that there is only one true choice to make: we either choose to believe He is the true Christ of God sent for our redemption by faith, or we choose not to.

We have not chosen and 'elected' Him to be Christ, but we choose to believe He is indeed Christ. And so, He chooses to elect us to be His people by His faith recieved and kept in our hearts.

Keeping His faith is always a matter of choice, because all that hear His word do receive the faith instantly into the heart, but not all keep His faith in the heart. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

All choose to have Jesus' faith sown in their hearts by hearing the word alone, but all hearers do not choose to do the word and keep His faith unto salvation and everlasting life. All choose to be hearers of the world, by hearing it, but only the few choose to be doers of the word by keeping it in their hearts.

If Christian predeterminism were true, and God does in fact make some people with power of will to believe and obey Him, and some He makes a lesser version of His image without such power, and then Jesus chooses us accordingly at some point in our lives, then the exhortation to keep and continue in the faith is a redundant waste of time. It would be like telling birds to keep flying in the air, and not stop and drop to the ground, or coaxing cars to continue burning fuel from a full gas tank.

Christian predeterminism makes no practical sense and is an abhorrent teaching, that God purposely and wilfully makes some men to do good, and others to do evil. That is what James calls a false accusation against God. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
 

ScottA

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This is just the movie.

God says it right from the beginning, "Let us make man in our image." ...So, what--it's not an image? --It's an image--this life, your life, my life--is an image. But what of?

Well, for all who are "in Christ" the answer is written, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." Which is not to say that He [actually] "foreordained", "foreknew" or "predestined" us--those are just world-speak terms given to creatures in their own God-confused language. Both can't be true, they're just misunderstood. Both "the same yesterday, today, and forever" and "predestined" cannot be true, but must be reconciled. Thus, it is as I said--or rather as God said, in saying that He in whom we exist, was "before the foundation to the world"--before time.

The other fact that must also be reconciled, is at the end...that is, in the Book of Revelation. It is there that it is revealed that the entire word of God is "the revelation of Jesus Christ."

So--this world is the stage....and each of us are "in Christ", and revealed here in the form of an "image"--one that unfolds like a movie over time. And yet, it was all written, "before the foundation of the world"--which is/was before time was even created. And yes, the cinemaphotography is incredible--I mean, with real blood and everything!

That's our God!

And this is Him revealed...by Godly "image." Oh, and, that other guy is also revealed. That's also a big part of the plot. The dark side.
 
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360watt

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Christians predeterminism, as I understand it from those that teach it, is a kind of no-choice-about-it faith and salvation. God has already decided who will believe Him unto salvation, and who will not.

If it were a simple matter of foreknowing who would and would not, then that is just the omniscience of God. However, I have found that the teaching of predeterminism includes God creating men and women differently. It suggests that God is a respecter of persons. He actually creates and makes some in His image with power to believe and willingness to obey Him, while others are not, or are created of a lesser image of God. It's like God picking and choosing the winners of life's lottery, when He creates us. Those who are determined by God to believe and obey, shall do so, because He creates them that way, and those who are not determined to do so, shall not, because He purposely creates them another lesser way.

I find this most offensive, and an accusation against the God that is love and would have all men to be saved by faith in His Son.

The main verse of the Bible they use most is John 5:16, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

They use this to say we have no individual choice in the matter of believing and being saved, but each person is fated one way or the other. It's the Christian version of pagan divine fatalism, that Jesus Christ came to destroy.

In the verse, Jesus is not saying we have not chosen to believe He is the Christ, but rather we have not chosen Him to be the Christ of God. We must understand old paganism to understand what He was dispelling among His disciples. Pagans believed they could choose from among many gods, the one they most wanted to please and receive blessing and protection from. They could make one god of many into their 'patron god'. Whole cities would do so, such as Ephesus of Diana and Egyptian Thebes of Amun. Catholics have a version of it with patron saints.

What Jesus is telling us, is to not thinks as the pagans think, and suppose we are choosing who is the true Christ and Lord for ourselves, from among many gods, christs and lords. We do not choose Him to ourselves as the best candidate for God's Christ. We are not favoring Him with our own form of election, of who is the best of the gods for us.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

The Jews were trying to do the same thing, by trying to choose Jesus for themselves to be their very own personal king. Jesus would have none of it. Jesus is telling us that we do not choose Him from among other christs and gods to be our King and Lord, but that we are either to believe He is the one and only Christ of God, or not. And so, he chooses them that do believe from the heart, that He is indeed the only true Christ and Lord and Savior for men.

And so, it's not that we have no choice nor say in the matter. God neither creates us different from others to become saved believers, nor does Jesus choose us 'randomly' out of crowd to be His special people. The truth is that there is only one true choice to make: we either choose to believe He is the true Christ of God sent for our redemption by faith, or we choose not to.

We have not chosen and 'elected' Him to be Christ, but we choose to believe He is indeed Christ. And so, He chooses to elect us to be His people by His faith recieved and kept in our hearts.

Keeping His faith is always a matter of choice, because all that hear His word do receive the faith instantly into the heart, but not all keep His faith in the heart. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

All choose to have Jesus' faith sown in their hearts by hearing the word alone, but all hearers do not choose to do the word and keep His faith unto salvation and everlasting life. All choose to be hearers of the world, by hearing it, but only the few choose to be doers of the word by keeping it in their hearts.

If Christian predeterminism were true, and God does in fact make some people with power of will to believe and obey Him, and some He makes a lesser version of His image without such power, and then Jesus chooses us accordingly at some point in our lives, then the exhortation to keep and continue in the faith is a redundant waste of time. It would be like telling birds to keep flying in the air, and not stop and drop to the ground, or coaxing cars to continue burning fuel from a full gas tank.

Christian predeterminism makes no practical sense and is an abhorrent teaching, that God purposely and wilfully makes some men to do good, and others to do evil. That is what James calls a false accusation against God. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

Yes, pre destination ..is

Firstly.. a place in heaven is set for a sinner who places their faith in Jesus as God and Saviour.

So a believer is eternally secure in Christ.

The second part is Jesus has set up His system of New Testament churches that a believer can join. This is pre destined, or preset also.

The part I understand for calvinists is not having works involved in salvation from Jesus.. but they go to far and make placing your faith in Christ to be a work.

Even though it's faith that's been brought about thru the conviction and enabling of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Gottservant

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I would rather say "(when we are saved) we gradually lose interest in ourselves, and start to be progressively more predetermined"

It is a transition to His Will that He wants, because His Will Saves - He can't force you to want to be saved, but gradually you will realise it is the best option.

The culmination of all our determination to be predetermined from the start, will be realised when we receive Heavenly bodies, that can handle that level of predetermination (our present bodies can't, because they are not yet cut off, from sin).

This disappoints some and relieves others, it is a mystery.
 

Robert Gwin

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Christians predeterminism, as I understand it from those that teach it, is a kind of no-choice-about-it faith and salvation. God has already decided who will believe Him unto salvation, and who will not.

If it were a simple matter of foreknowing who would and would not, then that is just the omniscience of God. However, I have found that the teaching of predeterminism includes God creating men and women differently. It suggests that God is a respecter of persons. He actually creates and makes some in His image with power to believe and willingness to obey Him, while others are not, or are created of a lesser image of God. It's like God picking and choosing the winners of life's lottery, when He creates us. Those who are determined by God to believe and obey, shall do so, because He creates them that way, and those who are not determined to do so, shall not, because He purposely creates them another lesser way.

I find this most offensive, and an accusation against the God that is love and would have all men to be saved by faith in His Son.

The main verse of the Bible they use most is John 5:16, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

They use this to say we have no individual choice in the matter of believing and being saved, but each person is fated one way or the other. It's the Christian version of pagan divine fatalism, that Jesus Christ came to destroy.

In the verse, Jesus is not saying we have not chosen to believe He is the Christ, but rather we have not chosen Him to be the Christ of God. We must understand old paganism to understand what He was dispelling among His disciples. Pagans believed they could choose from among many gods, the one they most wanted to please and receive blessing and protection from. They could make one god of many into their 'patron god'. Whole cities would do so, such as Ephesus of Diana and Egyptian Thebes of Amun. Catholics have a version of it with patron saints.

What Jesus is telling us, is to not thinks as the pagans think, and suppose we are choosing who is the true Christ and Lord for ourselves, from among many gods, christs and lords. We do not choose Him to ourselves as the best candidate for God's Christ. We are not favoring Him with our own form of election, of who is the best of the gods for us.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

The Jews were trying to do the same thing, by trying to choose Jesus for themselves to be their very own personal king. Jesus would have none of it. Jesus is telling us that we do not choose Him from among other christs and gods to be our King and Lord, but that we are either to believe He is the one and only Christ of God, or not. And so, he chooses them that do believe from the heart, that He is indeed the only true Christ and Lord and Savior for men.

And so, it's not that we have no choice nor say in the matter. God neither creates us different from others to become saved believers, nor does Jesus choose us 'randomly' out of crowd to be His special people. The truth is that there is only one true choice to make: we either choose to believe He is the true Christ of God sent for our redemption by faith, or we choose not to.

We have not chosen and 'elected' Him to be Christ, but we choose to believe He is indeed Christ. And so, He chooses to elect us to be His people by His faith recieved and kept in our hearts.

Keeping His faith is always a matter of choice, because all that hear His word do receive the faith instantly into the heart, but not all keep His faith in the heart. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

All choose to have Jesus' faith sown in their hearts by hearing the word alone, but all hearers do not choose to do the word and keep His faith unto salvation and everlasting life. All choose to be hearers of the world, by hearing it, but only the few choose to be doers of the word by keeping it in their hearts.

If Christian predeterminism were true, and God does in fact make some people with power of will to believe and obey Him, and some He makes a lesser version of His image without such power, and then Jesus chooses us accordingly at some point in our lives, then the exhortation to keep and continue in the faith is a redundant waste of time. It would be like telling birds to keep flying in the air, and not stop and drop to the ground, or coaxing cars to continue burning fuel from a full gas tank.

Christian predeterminism makes no practical sense and is an abhorrent teaching, that God purposely and wilfully makes some men to do good, and others to do evil. That is what James calls a false accusation against God. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
It basically boils down to common sense sir, if God predestined His followers, we simply would not have free will, and by God not predestining one of His children, would make Him an unfit father put simply. Basically it would nullify 2 Pet 3:9 and make our Christian assignment null and void.
 
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ButterflyJones

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Ah, yes. The tension between God's sovereignty and Man's responsibility. The Bible teaches both.
God's sovereignty is paramount. We make our choice yet it is God who sets our steps.

I believe if we let ourselves think our will can supercede God's the we have relegated him to be our servant rather than God being sovereign.

The natural mind imagines itself in control. In God's people it is God who is in control. The discipline as I see it is learning to let go and follow his placement of our steps.
 

Behold

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Christians predeterminism, as I understand it from those that teach it, is a kind of no-choice-about-it faith and salvation. God has already decided who will believe Him unto salvation, and who will not.

John Calvin...who is one of the Devil's best employees, infects the Body of Christ with Calvinism,...now and tomorrow, and for hundreds of years.

His deceived, some of them, many, are so infected by his diabolical theological deception.......that if you asked them on the Street.....>"are you a Christian"....they would reply..>"yes im a CALVINIST".

Amazing isnt it?
That a cult leader, a DEVIL... can so infect the mind of a person, they they self identify with Jesus The Christ as :

= "im a Calvinist".

See that? That is his spiritual poison......and God knows its some ultimate spiritual DARKNESS, if it infects you.


Now,....... freewill, is God's own mind.
And as we are created in God's "image and likeness"...then we are of the same mind.

Listen, ...

Becoming a Christian... requires that the GOSPEL be preached, and HEARD, so that it can Be BELIEVED.
"all that BELIEVE in Jesus, shall be saved"
"as many as believe in me, i give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish"
"the work of God is that you BELIEVE in Jesus, whom God sent".
That is freewill., from beginning to end., as you would not be asked to believe..... if God forced you to do it, as John Calvin's heretics teach.

Now, think on this, reader...

Can God hold you accountable, for never believing in Jesus..... after you die....so that you would end up in Hell, ....if God Himself didn't allow you to BELIEVE,.????? ... Or as the heretic J. Calvin teaches his lie........"you are not one of the predestined elect".....who is chosen to go to heaven.
Do you See that incredible Cross Denying demonic teaching?
That is John Calvin's teaching that God chose some.....maybe you and your mother, to be born to go to hell, because both of you have no option to ever believe in Jesus and be SAVED, = because Calvin teaches that you have no free will.. and are chosen by God to end up in the lake of fire and BURN.

What a " DOCTRINE OF DEVIL's to teach such a lie against GOD Himself, and The Cross of Christ.

Hebrews 13:9
 
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Gilligan

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Well, for all who are "in Christ" the answer is written, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." Which is not to say that He [actually] "foreordained", "foreknew" or "predestined" us--those are just world-speak terms given to creatures in their own God-confused language. Both can't be true, they're just misunderstood. Both "the same yesterday, today, and forever" and "predestined" cannot be true, but must be reconciled. Thus, it is as I said--or rather as God said, in saying that He in whom we exist, was "before the foundation to the world"--before time.

The other fact that must also be reconciled, is at the end...that is, in the Book of Revelation. It is there that it is revealed that the entire word of God is "the revelation of Jesus Christ."

So--this world is the stage....and each of us are "in Christ", and revealed here in the form of an "image"--one that unfolds like a movie over time. And yet, it was all written, "before the foundation of the world"--which is/was before time was even created. And yes, the cinemaphotography is incredible--I mean, with real blood and everything!

That's our God!

And this is Him revealed...by Godly "image." Oh, and, that other guy is also revealed. That's also a big part of the plot. The dark side.

This is just the movie.
It may be a movie as Shakespeare would say, all the world is a stage and we are but actors in it. But we are not prescripted actors. We write our own play, whether for good or evil.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev 20)





Well, for all who are "in Christ" the answer is written, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." Which is not to say that He [actually] "foreordained", "foreknew" or "predestined" us-
Actually He does foreknow, which He plainly says, because He foresees all things. It's just that He does no predetermine what He knows. He doesn't create on person to believe Him and another not to, and then watches it come to pass as He predestines.

The only predestination of God is the manner of His natural creation, so that a tree produces trees, and whales produce whales, and humans produce humans. What is different about man and trees and whales, is that man is created in God's spiritual image to think, intend, and imagaine freely. Which includes the liberty to obey or disobey Him, either for our own life or our own destruction.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Free will is good if we choose wisely, but is our own worst enemy if we choose evil.


So--this world is the stage....and each of us are "in Christ", and revealed here in the form of an "image"--one that unfolds like a movie over time.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Only them that believe are in Christ, and only them that conform to His image are answering to the predetermined will of God to be in Christ.

What we are to become is predestinated, not who.

And yet, it was all written, "before the foundation of the world"--which is/was before time was even created. And yes, the cinemaphotography is incredible--I mean, with real blood and everything!
Our lives were written by God before we live, because the Word watches and has watched all things, so that the Father knows it from Him in the beginning.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1)

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. (Isaiah 40)

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1)


It is the Word that sits upon the circle of the earth watching all things in perfect detail as upon the curtain and screen of our lives. And the Father knows what the Word watches from the beginning, for the Word was with Him in the beginning, knowing who would be saved, and who would not by watching, not by determining it beforehand.

Our scripts are already known from the beginning by watching us write them, not by writing them for us to just play out as actors without choice. We write our own script, whether in Christ or without God.
 
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ScottA

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It may be a movie as Shakespeare would say, all the world is a stage and we are but actors in it. But we are not prescripted actors. We write our own play, whether for good or evil.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev 20)
You've missed the point.

The point is, all that is written was written "before the foundation of the world." Which is confirmed by the fact that man is created a mere "image." An image of what? What one does after it is all written, or "before?" The scriptures say "before." Meaning, that the "works" you have made reference to, are simply a part of that "image" of us "in Christ in God." History then, is His story...and we are in it--made manifest in revelations. Which then, having been revealed, is the evidence presented [by God] for or against every man in his own time.

In other words, our lives and our "works" are only news to us (as it is revealed to us), and yet not news to God. But don't misunderstand--with God there is no "pre" anything (as He is the same always). Therefore it is written as being "before"--only because it is "before" we experience it.
 

Gilligan

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Yes, pre destination ..is

Firstly.. a place in heaven is set for a sinner who places their faith in Jesus as God and Saviour.

So a believer is eternally secure in Christ.

The second part is Jesus has set up His system of New Testament churches that a believer can join. This is pre destined, or preset also.

The part I understand for calvinists is not having works involved in salvation from Jesus.. but they go to far and make placing your faith in Christ to be a work.

Even though it's faith that's been brought about thru the conviction and enabling of the Holy Spirit.
If I understand you right, then I agree with your point of making faith a work, that I have never thought of before. Determinism says that faith or unbelief is a determined work of God at creation. It goes along with the idea that God works to create faith in some people, but not in others at the beginning of our creation itself.

It says God works to create some with faith and others with unbelief. God's work never results in unbelief with determined will to disobey Him

Good point.
 

Lambano

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God's sovereignty is paramount. We make our choice yet it is God who sets our steps.

I believe if we let ourselves think our will can supercede God's the we have relegated him to be our servant rather than God being sovereign.

The natural mind imagines itself in control. In God's people it is God who is in control. The discipline as I see it is learning to let go and follow his placement of our steps.
BOTH are important. Knowing that our choices have meaning and that we are accountable for our actions in this life is necessary for us to live meaningful lives. Yet understanding that God has a plan and we are part of something bigger than ourselves, and being able to trust that God is in control and no plan of His can be thwarted, this is also necessary to live a meaningful life.

The Bible teaches both. How this works out in real life, I can only speculate. My speculations and $4.67 will get you a latte at Starbucks.
 

Gilligan

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True Christian determinism is that God creates and determines all men with faith to be conformed to His Son's image. Not just some.

That can only be by free will given to man to know and love God, unlike beasts of the field.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Every man that sins against God, must therefore wilfully choose to disobey and sin against Him, in opposition to how we are all created in His image.

God's determined will for all men at creation, is with faith to love Him, not with unbelief to hate Him.

Determination of some to not believe at creation, is the exact opposite of the truth that God loves all people, and creates all people the same in His image. God is love, and love is His only image.
 

ScottA

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Actually He does foreknow, which He plainly says, because He foresees all things.
I already explained the "fore-" terms as God simply telling us in worldly terms we would understand while still in the midst of His revealing things to us. That just as God has clarified that the Lamb that was slain in His own time was actually slain "before the foundation of the world" and "before Abraham was, I AM", so too are all things that God has made manifest after the fact. Thus, the scriptures do not say, "It will be written" or "It is now written", but rather "It is written."
 

Gilligan

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I would rather say "(when we are saved) we gradually lose interest in ourselves, and start to be progressively more predetermined"

It is a transition to His Will that He wants, because His Will Saves - He can't force you to want to be saved, but gradually you will realise it is the best option.

The culmination of all our determination to be predetermined from the start, will be realised when we receive Heavenly bodies, that can handle that level of predetermination (our present bodies can't, because they are not yet cut off, from sin).

This disappoints some and relieves others, it is a mystery.
The only point of the thread is to show that we are all created with that same predetermined will of God to be conformed to His image. He does so by creating us first in His image.

We all choose to believe or not believe Jesus, even though we are all created by god to do so. We do not choose Jesus to be the Christ, nor to be our personal Savior, as though we are pagans choosing among a pantheon of christs and gods. There is only one choice for life: to believe Jesus is indeed the Christ of God and Lord and Savior for all people.

To not believe Jesus, we must do so purposely by choosing against God's determined will at our creation. To say He determines some not to believe by creating them that way, is the exact opposite of the truth of all people being created in His image.

Such evil determinism is an accusation of the devil against God and His Christ. The only one that would create anyone without faith, and with will to disobey God, is Lucifer. That is why we thank God Jesus is the Christ, and creates all men in His image, and saves all that believe to be conformed to His image, according to the determinate will of God in the beginning.
 
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ScottA

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Free will is good if we choose wisely, but is our own worst enemy if we choose evil.
Indeed, our times in this world are our "valley of decision." Which is referred to as a "valley" because it occurs in the depths. Which is not to say that we choose as we go, as we walk through this valley of the shadow of death. No, but rather by making it manifest, "the man of sin is revealed." And who is that man, but he who caused the Lamb to be slain? And when was that, but also "before the foundation of the world?"

For the Lamb was not slain "before" for not, but slain for what was also "before the foundation of the world."
 

Lambano

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My speculations and $4.67 will get you a latte at Starbucks.
Since we're speculating: God existed "before the foundation of the Kosmos"; space and time were created when He said, "Let there by light!" God can sit outside of space and time and give His creatures free will and see how the interaction of an infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of typewriters plays out. And then He can intervene in space and time where it is necessary and set up the circumstances where His creature will freely make the decisions that get the outcome He wants. Hey, God has free will too.

The God of the Bible is both transcendent and immanent. And He's bigger than you and I can possibly imagine.

Are such decisions truly "free"? I'm not a philosopher.
 

ScottA

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Our scripts are already known from the beginning by watching us write them, not by writing them for us to just play out as actors without choice. We write our own script, whether in Christ or without God.
Yes, but even us writing our own scripts--that is, our freewill, was "before the foundation of the world", and is only now made manifest, that "the man of sin is revealed."
 

Gilligan

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That just as God has clarified that the Lamb that was slain in His own time was actually slain "before the foundation of the world"
He was prophetically slain before creation, and so could be said to have been slain, because Christ keeps His word and promise. If he says he will do something, He will, because God cannot lie.

But it's not possible for Him to have already been slain, because the prophecy is of a man on earth with physical death.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Scripture prophecies of what shall come to pass, and so speaks of it in past tense, since it is Christ being prophesied of. He was not slain, wounded, nor bruised for our transgressions, before we transgressed. And it is physical bruising not just prophetical only.

Christ did not die before the world began, because God in heaven cannot die.


and "before Abraham was, I AM",
He was Christ in heaven before He made all things, and He was Christ on earth when made flesh. Christ was not slain in heaven, but only on earth as a man.

so too are all things that God has made manifest after the fact.
There was no fact of any man living before the world was created. And so there is no after the fact life of men. We may be actors, but we are not just acting out what was already done or predetermined to do.

Thus, the scriptures do not say, "It will be written" or "It is now written", but rather "It is written."
And Scripture is written of that which is foreseen, not foredone. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

There is no fact of what is done, before it is done. There is only foreknowledge of the Father by foreseeing of the Word. Nothing is done until it is done, even if foreseen and known and prophesied.

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. (Rev 16)

This is not yet done on this earth.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (Rev 21)

This is not yet done on the new earth, which has not yet been created.

We know it will be done as prophesied, so that we can foresee it with Scripture, but God has not yet said it is done, while dwelling among men on the new earth. It may be just as good as done, but not yet actually done.
 
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