Christianity boils down to believing in the end, there's no other way around it

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Animal2692

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I will start by saying that all belief systems are there because we do not know. When you know something, belief becomes unnecessary. You only believe something because you don't know.

I've spoken with many Christians and have done a lot of reading. I'll come across articles by apologetics titled along the lines of '10 signs of proof that God exists' or 'evidence of Jesus' resurrection'.

Now my question is, if there is SO much 'overwhelming evidence' and so much 'proof', why is belief still necessary? Christians clearly consider themselves to be believers in the very end, not knowers. That means they truly don't know, they are simply believing.

I don't believe in believing. I either know or admit I don't know at all. Beliefs are always going to be open to scrutiny and doubt, it is so much work trying to hold onto a belief. The way I see it is that if you just admit you do not know, then that's humility. That's innocence.
 

ScottA

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I will start by saying that all belief systems are there because we do not know. When you know something, belief becomes unnecessary. You only believe something because you don't know.

I've spoken with many Christians and have done a lot of reading. I'll come across articles by apologetics titled along the lines of '10 signs of proof that God exists' or 'evidence of Jesus' resurrection'.

Now my question is, if there is SO much 'overwhelming evidence' and so much 'proof', why is belief still necessary? Christians clearly consider themselves to be believers in the very end, not knowers. That means they truly don't know, they are simply believing.

I don't believe in believing. I either know or admit I don't know at all. Beliefs are always going to be open to scrutiny and doubt, it is so much work trying to hold onto a belief. The way I see it is that if you just admit you do not know, then that's humility. That's innocence.
Well said!

The fact is, few actually "know", and most only "believe." But there are those who have and do "know" what is true, and these have and do testify to the truth--while millions upon millions only speculate resulting in much conjecture. Nonetheless, there exists a thread of evidence by eyewitness testimony about what can be "known" of God and the truth. It is this thread of actual truth that has been presented down throughout all the ages that establishes the 'belief' of many, and it is in this undeniable history of events and testimony that many place their hope.

But this hope and belief is not by logic or an ability who's source is their own--it is a gift, as it is written, a gift "like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field." Matthew 13:44 Which is the judgement of God to know who is of Him, and who is not.
 
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Animal2692

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Well said!

The fact is, few actually "know", and most only "believe." But there are those who have and do "know" what is true, and these have and do testify to the truth--will millions upon millions only speculate resulting in much conjecture. Nonetheless, there exists a thread of evidence by eyewitness testimony about what can be "known" of God and the truth. It is this thread of actual truth that has been presented down throughout all the ages that establishes the 'belief' of many, and it is in this undeniable history of events and testimony that many place their hope.

But this hope and belief is not by logic or an ability who source is their own--it is a gift, as it is written, a gift "like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field." Matthew 13:44 Which is the judgement of God to know who is of Him, and who is not.

Eyewitness testimony is also open to scrutiny. The people back then had less technology and didn't have much science either-they believed all sorts of things that they simply couldn't explain. There are also people in corners of the world who will never know of Jesus, any eyewitness testimony, or scripture. We can also assume that there may be life in other corners of the universe that absolutely has none of the 'evidence' that's here on earth. The story of Jesus is predicated upon the fact that Jesus came to Earth only. It doesn't say anything about Jesus coming to any other planet. What about the humans who existed before the Old Testmament? Think Ice Age. The first homosapiens appeared about 300,000 years ago. Even if you don't believe in evolution, there is undeniable evidence of human beings existing well before the Old Testament.

That's why to me the truth cannot have an agenda, it just is. It's not something that can be discovered the way one would discover a rare element. It can only be recognized. It's simply everywhere and we are it.
 
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ScottA

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Eyewitness testimony is also open to scrutiny. The people back then had less technology and didn't have much science either-they believed all sorts of things that they simply couldn't explain. There are also people in corners of the world who will never know of Jesus, any eyewitness testimony, or scripture. We can also assume that there may be life in other corners of the universe that absolutely has none of the 'evidence' that's here on earth. The story of Jesus is predicated upon the fact that Jesus came to Earth only. It doesn't say anything about Jesus coming to any other planet. What about the humans who existed before the Old Testmament? Think Ice Age.

That's why to me the truth cannot have an agenda, it just is. It's not something that can be discovered the way one would discover a rare element. It can only be recognized. It's simply everywhere and we are it.
Not just back then, but even now. God and truth can and are "known." Granted, only by the few.

But assumptions are like rabbit holes.

The reality is that truth is beyond people to know of their own ability. I may have explained before, but the subject of actual truth to people is like being born into a big room with no windows and perhaps one door that is locked, and no one has ever seen or been outside in order to have any actual knowledge of what is outside. Meaning that the only way for people to come into such knowledge, it would have to come into them from the outside--and it has. That is the substance of those testimonies record in the Bible and those that are not but have occurred after it was written...which are true whether believed or not, even though they establish the truth by many things said by those who did not or could not have known by any other means but those provided by God. Which things I now tell you and attest to, because I am such a one who has heard from the outside--was caught up in the spirit above the earth and returned. Which would mean nothing if not crazy except for what I testify agrees and even elaborates as brick upon brick, what has been revealed in such a way since time began.

That is the agenda of God, as He is my witness.
 

Animal2692

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Not just back then, but even now. God and truth can and are "known." Granted, only by the few.

But assumptions are like rabbit holes.

The reality is that truth is beyond people to know of their own ability. I may have explained before, but the subject of actual truth to people is like being born into a big room with no windows and perhaps one door that is locked, and no one has ever seen or been outside in order to have any actual knowledge of what is outside. Meaning that the only way for people to come into such knowledge, it would have to come into them from the outside--and it has. That is the substance of those testimonies record in the Bible and those that are not but have occurred after it was written...which are true whether believed or not, even though they establish the truth by many things said by those who did not or could not have known by any other means but those provided by God. Which things I now tell you and attest to, because I am such a one who has heard from the outside--was caught up in the spirit above the earth and returned. Which would mean nothing if not crazy except for what I testify agrees and even elaborates as brick upon brick, what has been revealed in such a way since time began.

That is the agenda of God, as He is my witness.

Lol I understood what you were saying halfway into your post and after that I could no longer follow along. Not because I disagree but because all these words are so loaded, it turns into reading something akin to a poem.

All I know is that I know nothing and no matter what happens, everything is going to be ok and anyone can disagree with what I said all they want. I am going to choose to be happy no matter what and there's nothing anyone else can do about it. There is nothing above having peace.
 
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Animal2692

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In the end, all that matters is having peace. Even if one doesn't follow Christ, nothing beats having peace, right this instant. People can go on about how one day you will come before God and go to heaven or hell, I could care less. The real question is, are you at peace right this instant or not?
 

ScottA

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Lol I understood what you were saying halfway into your post and after that I could no longer follow along. Not because I disagree but because all these words are so loaded, it turns into reading something akin to a poem.

All I know is that I know nothing and no matter what happens, everything is going to be ok and anyone can disagree with what I said all they want. I am going to choose to be happy no matter what and there's nothing anyone else can do about it. There is nothing above having peace.
Sounds organic, like no thank you. I was speaking of something more.

But hey, your choice is all that is to be. Enjoy!

It's just that your choice--even if it is not a choice but an agenda, it doesn't explain why you are here--like one who came into a room and forgot why they came. Either way, I know why, but I suspect you don't...which is why I offered you directions.
 
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Animal2692

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Sounds organic, like no thank you. I was speaking of something more.

But hey, your choice is all that is to be. Enjoy!

It's just that your choice--even if it is not a choice but an agenda, it doesn't explain why you are here--like one who came into a room and forgot why the came. Either way, I know why, but I suspect you don't...which is why I offered you directions.

I've always thought that if I knew why I was here, it would suck out all the wonder and mystery of life. Why analyze and try to figure life out? We can figure out things within life such as how to make rubber or build a computer. But figuring life itself out, I feel completely destroys it.

I think in the end, the only reason human beings want an answer to life is because they are afraid deep down. I feel like people want to find something more, something pivotal and groundbreaking to make up for their ever mundane existence instead of just seeing the divinity of it. Just full stop. This is it, we have already arrived. There is nowhere to truly go. We are already complete. This moment is enough. Everybody is running around like a chicken witn their head cut off, when do you ever hear someone say that this life is already enough as it is? It has given us so much and we are such ungrateful creatures.
 
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AceWestfall08

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The struggle between Believing and Knowing is Real. I'm the type of person who can't believe something until it checks out logically or if I seen something. The main reason I truly give Christianity a fair shot is because of a vision I had where a floating head said "Thomas, I swear by my great name you are mine!"......He never told me his name or that he was God.....but it was enough proof with me to believe in the supernatural...and with that comes the definite proof in the existence God.

Christianity and the Bible gives me hope and strength, but as much as I would like to believe it and link it to my vision, doubt always creeps inside of me in terms of it being influenced by humans when authoring it and when I think about Jesus Christ not being exaggerated. Doubt doesn't creep in when I think of God existing.
In under the mindset that I'm blessed because of the Oath I have recieved, and it takes away the pressure of "having to believe in the right thing".
 
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Animal2692

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I don't believe in a God for the simple reason that God is love or more accurately, love is God. How can love ever be a creator entity? Humans can be creators in the sense of buildings and all that but love? I cannot get on board with God being a father or creator that you can just have a relationship with as you would with Joe Shmoe. To me God is more of an 'it' than a 'he'.

Christians believe that God is the ultimate judge. Being a judge is the furthest thing from divinity. Man judges one another, but God? Saying that God judges or punishes is in my opinion, completely invalidating God by reducing it to just another judgemental human being who gets their revenge by punishing. I don't believe in punishment, it's an ugly word. Discipline sure, but punishment carries the intention of making one suffer. I am very against the death penalty for example. And politically I'm extremely liberal.
 
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AceWestfall08

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I think Love is what survives and conquers death. The love that you hold for others and the love they hold for you. True love that you can't fake, causes a piece of ourselves to exist past death. A connection, and essence that survives. The story of Jesus tells of man who Loved everybody so much he was willing to die to prove it and God rewarded that with Love with conquering death.
 

Animal2692

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One thing with Christianity is that us liberals can never be Christians in the fundamental sense. We can be progressive Christians...but the fundamentalists will obviously think we are heretics. Fundamental Christianity just doesn't mesh with being a liberal.
 

L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d

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There is only one way to know God and it is through his son,Jesus for He said I and the Father are one.Jn.14:6.

There is zero universalism with God ! If one is worshipping Buddha, some prophet or any man or OTHER God, there is no chance of an eternity with God.

Jesus himself said if we do NOT BELIEVE , Jn.3:12; there is no hope and nothing left to hold onto.
Rms.3:3 Paul instructs in this book just bc YOU CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE,your unbelief does NOT make the faith of God without effect.
Jesus also said Jn.10:26 But ye BELIEVE NOT, because ye ARE NOT of my sheep, as I said unto you. To the Father of a possessed child Mark 923, Jesus said unto him , If thou canst believe,all things are possible to Him that believeth.

I'm saying this to any who have some wacky form of thinking about God, IF YOU DONT BELIEVE, THEN YOU ARE NOT HIS !
Heb.11:1
NOW FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THINGS....HOPED FOR..... THE EVIDIENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN.

The two others who've commented and agree to a similar belief or lol knowledge are in your SINKING boat!
 

AceWestfall08

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I don't believe in a God for the simple reason that God is love or more accurately, love is God. How can love ever be a creator entity? Humans can be creators in the sense of buildings and all that but love? I cannot get on board with God being a father or creator that you can just have a relationship with as you would with Joe Shmoe. To me God is more of an 'it' than a 'he'.

Christians believe that God is the ultimate judge. Being a judge is the furthest thing from divinity. Man judges one another, but God? Saying that God judges or punishes is in my opinion, completely invalidating God by reducing it to just another judgemental human being who gets their revenge by punishing. I don't believe in punishment, it's an ugly word. Discipline sure, but punishment carries the intention of making one suffer. I am very against the death penalty for example. And politically I'm extremely liberal.

There is only one way to know God and it is through his son,Jesus for He said I and the Father are one.Jn.14:6.

There is zero universalism with God ! If one is worshipping Buddha, some prophet or any man or OTHER God, there is no chance of an eternity with God.

Jesus himself said if we do NOT BELIEVE , Jn.3:12; there is no hope and nothing left to hold onto.
Rms.3:3 Paul instructs in this book just bc YOU CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE,your unbelief does NOT make the faith of God without effect.
Jesus also said Jn.10:26 But ye BELIEVE NOT, because ye ARE NOT of my sheep, as I said unto you. To the Father of a possessed child Mark 923, Jesus said unto him , If thou canst believe,all things are possible to Him that believeth.

I'm saying this to any who have some wacky form of thinking about God, IF YOU DONT BELIEVE, THEN YOU ARE NOT HIS !
Heb.11:1
NOW FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THINGS....HOPED FOR..... THE EVIDIENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN.

The two others who've commented and agree to a similar belief or lol knowledge are in your SINKING boat!

What is your purpose and intent here? You spent some time just trying to make me believe I am doomed because I have doubts. Is it fear you want to spread? Depression? Hopelessness?

Not much "Meat" to you post other than.....I'm doomed. Your approach and mindset is too negative for me to even respect let alone even consider.

Why is God so Snobby you must go through a middleman to have a relationship. I thought Jesus died to redeem us. Not be a middleman.
 
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Animal2692

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There is only one way to know God and it is through his son,Jesus for He said I and the Father are one.Jn.14:6.

There is zero universalism with God ! If one is worshipping Buddha, some prophet or any man or OTHER God, there is no chance of an eternity with God.

Jesus himself said if we do NOT BELIEVE , Jn.3:12; there is no hope and nothing left to hold onto.
Rms.3:3 Paul instructs in this book just bc YOU CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE,your unbelief does NOT make the faith of God without effect.
Jesus also said Jn.10:26 But ye BELIEVE NOT, because ye ARE NOT of my sheep, as I said unto you. To the Father of a possessed child Mark 923, Jesus said unto him , If thou canst believe,all things are possible to Him that believeth.

I'm saying this to any who have some wacky form of thinking about God, IF YOU DONT BELIEVE, THEN YOU ARE NOT HIS !
Heb.11:1
NOW FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THINGS....HOPED FOR..... THE EVIDIENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN.

The two others who've commented and agree to a similar belief or lol knowledge are in your SINKING boat!

Conditional love can never be God then. Conditional love belongs to man, not God. God is unconditional love. This is why I don't agree with the idea of being worthy of love ONLY if this or that. It's asinine. True love can never be a transaction

I think what Jesus meant by being the way is that he's an example. There's a difference between following Jesus and fanatisicising over him.

I love Jesus. But the fan clubs scare me.
 
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L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d

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What is your purpose and intent here? You spent some time just trying to make me believe I am doomed because I have doubts. Is it fear you want to spread? Depression? Hopelessness?

Not much "Meat" to you post other than.....I'm doomed. Your approach and mindset is too negative for me to even respect let alone even consider.

The OPPOSITE OF DOUBT IS BELIEVE!

If YOU have that much doubt then you need to move up closer to God. Paul said a person who floats on the waves of doubt will be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine, increasing YOUR doubt.
Ephesians 4:14; James 1:6;

Maybe you just need to eat from the word the bread of life daily,and drink from the life giving waters more.

YOU alone can correct this with the Holy Spirit, and YOU alone can sink your own ship.
 

AceWestfall08

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Animal2692

I can tell you 100% from my personal experiences. God does exist. But the whole point of Christianity is to worship a book and live a lifestyle, and be grateful when good things happen, and keep hope in the rough times.
Those are the basic principles....other religions do the same thing. People get the same effect psychologically from this. I was, and sometimes am currently in the same boat.
Call it universalism, call it whatever. I know Christianity b/c i wholeheartedly believed in it at one point. But as I got older and more mature, I've realized that my faith was blind and not "built on rock" it was "built on sand". And everytime the storm blew away my beliefs. The vision I had remained. So I built a house where Christianity was positive, but not absolute.
 

Animal2692

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The OPPOSITE OF DOUBT IS BELIEVE!

If YOU have that much doubt then you need to move up closer to God. Paul said a person who floats on the waves of doubt will be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine, increasing YOUR doubt.
Ephesians 4:14; James 1:6;

Maybe you just need to eat from the word the bread of live daily,and drink from the life giving waters more.

YOU alone can correct this with the Holy Spirit, and YOU alone can sink your own ship.

You said that the opposite of doubt is belief. That means they are two sides of the same coin. You cannot separate belief from doubt no more than you can have daylight without night.