Church

[VictoryinJesus]

Is the Church Spirit or physical?

Matthew 16:16-19 KJV
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.



If Spirit, then what of Matthew 16: 16-19 is the church built on?

Which Church did Saul persecute?

 

[bbyrd009]

If Spirit, then what of Matthew 16: 16-19 is the church built on?

the Rock, cut without hands

 

[Helen]

If Spirit, then what of Matthew 16: 16-19 is the church built on?

Which Church did Saul persecute?

Both. The people are physical...but the Spirit within them is spiritual...it's not either or. Just as Solomon's Temple was physical...but The Glory Of The Lord filled it when he dedicated it to God. The inside and outside were one.

What is the Foundation that the Church is built on? -" And Simon Peter answered, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

That is The Rock of The Church, our foundation, and the Rock of our faith. =
The Revelation Of Jesus Christ.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Both. The people are physical...but the Spirit within them is spiritual...it's not either or. Just as Solomon's Temple was physical...but The Glory Of The Lord filled it when he dedicated it to God. The inside and outside were one.

What is the Foundation that the Church is built on? -" And Simon Peter answered, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

That is The Rock of The Church, our foundation, and the Rock of our faith. =
The Revelation Of Jesus Christ.

Sorry - but the Scriptural language doesn't jive with your explanation.

Not only is Peter called the "Rock" (Kepha) - Abraham is also called the "Rock" (Isaiah 51:1).
And, by the way - Peter is not called a "small stone". Jesus didn't speak Greek to the Apostles - He spoke ARAMAIC.

What Jesus actually said was:
“And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this rock Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

This is why St. Peter is referred to as Cephas in many of St. Paul’s letters, because Cephas is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic, Kepha.

There is another problem for non-Catholics. Petra is a feminine Greek noun and could hardly be used to describe a man, so the word was translated as Petros in Scripture because it was being used in reference to a man.

Your position would have us believe that Jesus said the following to Simon:
"You are the revelation of Jesus Christ and upon this revelation of Jesus Christ I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
I will give revelation of Jesus Christ the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. Whatever revelation of Jesus Christ binds on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever revelation of Jesus Christ looses on earth will be loosed in Heaven."

Sorry, but the above discourse is ludicrous if the Rock is NOT Peter.
The position that he is NOT the Rock spoken of in this passage is nothing more than a futile attempt to change the meaning.

Anyway - you STILL have to explain why Paul refers to Peter as "Cephas".

 

[amadeus]

the Rock, cut without hands

I see the Rock, cut without hands as something that comes out of what is commonly called Christianity. Lots of people in that Christendom but not so many are among those "cut out". God is more particular than people and church organizations. Jesus is to be the Head, so what kind of a Body should anyone expect?

"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Eph 5:27

 

[bbyrd009]

Anyway - you STILL have to explain why Paul refers to Peter as "Cephas".

ok then you have to explain why Dwayne Johnson is called "The Rock."

Petros already means "rock," so Cephas would be redundant anyway, were it not just another way to say "Peter."
Peter was also the only Apostle called "satan," by Christ Himself, so why not insist upon that appellation when referring to him, in the context of building your worldly church? Certainly seems more apropos, yes? Apologies to Peter.

 

[BreadOfLife]

ok then you have to explain why Dwayne Johnson is called "The Rock."

Petros already means "rock," so Cephas would be redundant anyway, were it not just another way to say "Peter."
Peter was also the only Apostle called "satan," by Christ Himself, so why not insist upon that appellation when referring to him, in the context of building your worldly church? Certainly seems more apropos, yes? Apologies to Peter.

Apparently you haven't been paying attention.

The reason I mentioned Paul's reference to Peter as "Cephas" was to who that Jesus spoke ARAMAIC.
So - if Jesus spoke Aramaic - then He didn't call Simon "Petros" and didn't differentiate that word with "Petra".
He said "Kepha", which simply means "Rock" - and transliterates to the Greek "Cephas".

See - if you had paid attention - you wouldn't have had to come up with the dumb joke about Dwayne Johnson . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

Apparently you haven't been paying attention.

The reason I mentioned Paul's reference to Peter as "Cephas" was to who that Jesus spoke ARAMAIC.
So - if Jesus spoke Aramaic - then He didn't call Simon "Petros" and didn't differentiate that word with "Petra".
He said "Kepha", which simply means "Rock" - and transliterates to the Greek "Cephas".

See - if you had paid attention - you wouldn't have had to come up with the dumb joke about Dwayne Johnson . . .

go with that then, and just keep ignoring that bottom part, i do not care even a little. Even God allowed an earthly king for people who have battles to fight; by all means get yourself a double helping.

 

[Helen]

Sorry - but the Scriptural language doesn't jive with your explanation.

Not only is Peter called the "Rock" (Kepha) - Abraham is also called the "Rock" (Isaiah 51:1).
And, by the way - Peter is not called a "small stone". Jesus didn't speak Greek to the Apostles - He spoke ARAMAIC.

What Jesus actually said was:
“And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this rock Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

This is why St. Peter is referred to as Cephas in many of St. Paul’s letters, because Cephas is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic, Kepha.

There is another problem for non-Catholics. Petra is a feminine Greek noun and could hardly be used to describe a man, so the word was translated as Petros in Scripture because it was being used in reference to a man.

Your position would have us believe that Jesus said the following to Simon:
"You are the revelation of Jesus Christ and upon this revelation of Jesus Christ I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
I will give revelation of Jesus Christ the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. Whatever revelation of Jesus Christ binds on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever revelation of Jesus Christ looses on earth will be loosed in Heaven."

Sorry, but the above discourse is ludicrous if the Rock is NOT Peter.
The position that he is NOT the Rock spoken of in this passage is nothing more than a futile attempt to change the meaning.

Anyway - you STILL have to explain why Paul refers to Peter as "Cephas".

This makes me chuckle...I can't say that I did not expect you to respond as soon as I wrote my post. lol
I only argue with @GodsGrace I honestly am not into the long on-going discussions which you enjoy .
I will continue to believe that the Church is built firmly upon the foundational revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God...I cannot move from that.
If you read much or anything that I post you will know that I do NOT follow the 'traditional teachings' on this subject or on many other subjects...

I am sure you will die believing that Peter is your rock. That is your right.
Take care...
Every blessing....Helen.

 

[amadeus]

Sorry - but the Scriptural language doesn't jive with your explanation.

Not only is Peter called the "Rock" (Kepha) - Abraham is also called the "Rock" (Isaiah 51:1).
And, by the way - Peter is not called a "small stone". Jesus didn't speak Greek to the Apostles - He spoke ARAMAIC.

What Jesus actually said was:
“And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this rock Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

This is why St. Peter is referred to as Cephas in many of St. Paul’s letters, because Cephas is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic, Kepha.

There is another problem for non-Catholics. Petra is a feminine Greek noun and could hardly be used to describe a man, so the word was translated as Petros in Scripture because it was being used in reference to a man.

Your position would have us believe that Jesus said the following to Simon:
"You are the revelation of Jesus Christ and upon this revelation of Jesus Christ I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
I will give revelation of Jesus Christ the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. Whatever revelation of Jesus Christ binds on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever revelation of Jesus Christ looses on earth will be loosed in Heaven."

Sorry, but the above discourse is ludicrous if the Rock is NOT Peter.
The position that he is NOT the Rock spoken of in this passage is nothing more than a futile attempt to change the meaning.

Anyway - you STILL have to explain why Paul refers to Peter as "Cephas".

I really did not attempt to wade through all of this. If a person must understand all of this in order to walk with God rightly then perhaps it is more understandable why so many don't even try.

 

[BreadOfLife]

go with that then, and just keep ignoring that bottom part, i do not care even a little. Even God allowed an earthly king for people who have battles to fight; by all means get yourself a double helping.

All I ask is that you pay attention to the conversation instead of blindly posting things that have already been presented and argued.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This makes me chuckle...I can't say that I did not expect you to respond as soon as I wrote my post. lol
I only argue with @GodsGrace I honestly am not into the long on-going discussions which you enjoy .
I will continue to believe that the Church is built firmly upon the foundational revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God...I cannot move from that.
If you read much or anything that I post you will know that I do NOT follow the 'traditional teachings' on this subject or on many other subjects...

I am sure you will die believing that Peter is your rock. That is your right.
Take care...
Every blessing....Helen.

I assumed you were on a discussion/debate site to have "discussion".
Apparently not.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I really did not attempt to wade through all of this. If a person must understand all of this in order to walk with God rightly then perhaps it is more understandable why so many don't even try.

The explanation is very simple - but explaining to people who refuse to seeis where it gets long-winded.

 

[bbyrd009]

All I ask is that you pay attention to the conversation instead of blindly posting things that have already been presented and argued.

ah, you already missed the point once, huh? My bad. Peter can be your Rock if you need him to be, i guess. As long as you understand that it is not Christian, and that that only flew as long as people were restricted from access to Bibles, ok. See, the explanation is very simple - but explaining to people who refuse to see is where it gets long-winded.

 

[BreadOfLife]

ah, you already missed the point once, huh? My bad. Peter can be your Rock if you need him to be, i guess. As long as you understand that it is not Christian, and that that only flew as long as people were restricted from access to Bibles, ok. See, the explanation is very simple - but explaining to people who refuse to see is where it gets long-winded.

Hey, I didn't call Simon "Rock" - Jesus did.
As for people being "restricted" from reading the Bible - you need to study your history.

 

[Helen]

I assumed you were on a discussion/debate site to have "discussion".
Apparently not.

Sorry, you are right...I am in the wrong as the thread is in the debate area.
I don't debate well at all.
I was just responding to @VictoryinJesus 's opening post...I didn't even notice she had placed it in Debate.
Sorry, my bad.

 

[bbyrd009]

Hey, I didn't call Simon "Rock" - Jesus did.

yes, and He also called Peter, exclusively, "Satan."

As for people being "restricted" from reading the Bible - you need to study your history.

regardless of the actual truth, nonetheless this is the perception that you are faced with, as above. Ppl don't much read their Bibles now, Prots included, so understand that i don't mean to single out Catholics ok. And those that do mostly go about it the same way, with the guidance of Some Guy, who has already been granted the imprimatur of The System, and signed a Contract for Jesus, because how else could one even become a "pastor," right. Arnold Murray is dead now.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sorry, you are right...I am in the wrong as the thread is in the debate area.
I don't debate well at all.
I was just responding to @VictoryinJesus 's opening post...I didn't even notice she had placed it in Debate.
Sorry, my bad.

No problem.

 

[BreadOfLife]

yes, and He also called Peter, exclusively, "Satan."

ALL of us are children of Satan before we are children of God.
You're no exception . . .

regardless of the actual truth, nonetheless this is the perception that you are faced with, as above. Ppl don't much read their Bibles now, Prots included, so understand that i don't mean to single out Catholics ok. And those that do mostly go about it the same way, with the guidance of Some Guy, who has already been granted the imprimatur of The System, and signed a Contract for Jesus, because how else could one even become a "pastor," right.

Sooooo, why would you say that people were "restricted" from reading the Bible and that's why they believed that Jesus called Simon, "Rock"??

 

[bbyrd009]

ALL of us are children of Satan before we are children of God.
You're no exception . . .

Sooooo, why would you say that people were "restricted" from reading the Bible and that's why they believed that Jesus called Simon, "Rock"??

sure, i agree, and i don't care if ppl want to venerate Peter, works for me. I'd be more impressed if JFK were officially Sanctified, or even if all of you militant Catholics would have made some noise after the inevitable assassination, where were all of you then lol, but whatever.

As to the bottom part, the popular knowledge has it that the RCC restricted the owning of Bibles, and even killed people for looking at one, and if that is not true--which i doubt that it is completely untrue, do you?--then you just have another lie to surmount. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the Inquisitions were being exaggerated, too.

but really what we are attempting to do here is mix cultures, and imo no good can come of this.
Good fences make good neighbors, move boundary stones at your peril, however you want to put it.