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Featured Consumption Of Jesus' Flesh And Blood

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Webers_Home, May 31, 2019.

  1. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of how Christ's teachings are interpreted-- ritually, literally, or
    metaphorically --unless people somehow eat his flesh and drink his blood,
    they have no life in them; viz: they are quite dead on the hoof regardless of
    their health, age, race, religion, and/or gender.

    John 6:53 . . Amen, Amen, I say to you: unless you eat the flesh of the
    Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

    The kind of life about which the Lord spoke is very unusual to say the least
    because it's supernatural.

    John 6:54 . . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life,

    Eternal life always was, it always is, and it always will be because eternal life
    is divine. (John 1:1-4 and 1John 1:1-2)

    When the Word came to be in human form (John 1:1-14), he came with not
    only human life, but also eternal life.

    John 5:26 . . For just as the Father has life in Himself, so also He gave to
    His son the possession of life in himself.

    When Jesus spoke of eternal life, he wasn't talking about immortality
    because in spite of the Lord's possession of his Father's life, Jesus didn't
    survive crucifixion.

    So then, the power of life obtained by eating Jesus' flesh and imbibing his
    blood isn't meant to keep people's bodies alive forever, sort of like the tree
    of life in the garden of Eden, because if Jesus' body was vulnerable to death
    in spite of his possession of eternal life, then the bodies of the consumers of
    his flesh and blood remain vulnerable to death too in spite of their
    possession of eternal life.
    _
     
  2. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    John 6:50-51 . . This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that
    one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from
    heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever

    Where are the apostles? They're all deceased. Where are the early church
    fathers? They're all deceased. Where are all the Christians beginning from
    around 35CE up till one hundred and fifty years ago-- roughly one thousand,
    eight hundred, and thirty four years of Christians? They're all deceased.

    Now, out of all those Christians-- including the apostles and the early church
    fathers --somebody, somewhere, among them ate the living bread correctly.
    So then, why are they all deceased?

    John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow
    me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

    "eternal life" speaks of Jesus' flesh and blood. (John 6:53-54)

    "never perish" speaks of the living bread. (John 6:50-51)

    Jesus identified the living bread as his flesh; viz: his body.

    John 6:51b . . the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.

    I'm pretty sure that nobody anywhere on Earth today is more than 150
    years old, yet Jesus said whoever eats this bread-- a.k.a. his flesh --would
    never perish, viz: would live forever, i.e. they would be immortal.

    Now if eating Jesus' flesh, and drinking his blood, gives people eternal life
    and immortality, then what's the frequency-- what's the regimen? Hourly?
    Daily? Weekly? Annually? What?

    Moses' people had to eat manna on a daily basis because one ration of
    manna didn't have enough energy in it to keep them alive for very long. In
    other words: they had to eat the stuff every day or they'd eventually die of
    malnutrition. In point of fact, they died anyway. But Jesus said that his flesh
    has enough energy in it to keep people alive forever, in other words; people
    only need one ration of the bread of life rather than ration after ration after
    ration like as if it were manna.

    In conclusion: If perchance Catholicism's Eucharist is the correct manner in
    which to eat Jesus' flesh, and to imbibe his blood; then it would be
    necessary to consume the species just once and people would be good to go
    for eternity.
    _
     
  3. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    1Cor 15:51-53 . . Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep,
    but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last
    trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible,
    and we shall be changed. For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with
    incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.

    Seeing as how that passage speaks of immortality relative to a future
    resurrection; then would it be okay to assume that the bread of life Jesus
    spoke of in John 6:50-51 doesn't take effect right away?

    Well; if we restrict "resurrection" to our bodies, then okay, yes, the bread of
    life doesn't take effect right away. However . . .

    In John 5:24-29, Jesus spoke of a future resurrection and a now
    resurrection. I think we can be pretty sure that the future resurrection is for
    our bodies because he said:

    "The hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and
    will come out" (John 5:28-29)

    So: about this "now" resurrection. What's the story on that? If it's not for
    our bodies, then what is it?

    John 5:24 . . Amen, Amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and
    believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to
    condemnation, but has passed from death to life. (Don't miss the
    grammatical tense of "has passed" because it's not future
    .)

    People who've passed from death to life have done so in a way not easily
    detected because it's supernatural.

    John 3:6 . . What is born of flesh is flesh, what is born of spirit is spirit.

    "born of flesh" speaks of a natural beginning; while "born of spirit" speaks of
    a very different beginning.

    John 1:12-13 . . But to those who did accept him he gave power to
    become children of God, to those who believe in his name, who were born
    not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision; but
    of God.
    _
     
  4. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Not sure who you are writing this to. I can only assume it's against Catholics, as most of your diatribes are.
    That being said - you seem to have missed the point on a few things and misrepresented Catholic beliefs on some others.

    First of all - the Church has never taught that the Eucharist gives us everlasting PHYSICAL life, as you falsely assert above. The Church teaches as Christ did - that unless we eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood we have no SPIRITUAL life within us.

    Secondly, as to your comment about only having to receive the Eucharist ONCE - and that should be "good enough" so as to have life within us - that's NOT what Christ taught. He commanded, "Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me” (1 Cor. 11:25), indicating that this is NOT supposed to be a one-time event.

    The verse that follows says, “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes” (1 Cor. 11:26). We cannot simply celebrate the Eucharist ONCE, then forget about it. It is a proclamation of WHO He is - and we cannot atop proclaiming it.

    Finally – John 5:24 is talking about INITIAL salvation – when we first come to faith. This is NOT a guarantee that we will ALWAYS remain in this states as the following verses warn (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

    The Bible is clear that:
    As Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
    This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

    However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
    This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

    Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
    This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.
     
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  5. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Internet forums have given many of Christ's obscure followers a convenient
    venue for sharing their time-won knowledge and experience with a
    worldwide audience. For the world's sake, I highly recommend making an
    effort to compose legible posts; neatly arranged, sensible, and tidy.

    Shouting with king-size bold letters, scribbly italics, lack of adequate
    paragraphing, twitter spelling, unnecessary emoticons, horrible grammar,
    and a confusing mixture of fonts, sizes, and colors, makes for tiresome
    clutter and annoying forum graffiti that leave a bad impression.

    I rather suspect that some people regard forums as a canvas for painting
    their comments instead of composing them. Well; that might be okay for
    outsiders, they can be as messy as they want because it doesn't matter. But
    for those of us who honestly believe ourselves to be representing God's son;
    it's unacceptable.

    1Cor 10:31 . . So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for
    the glory of God.

    One of the meanings of the Greek word for glory is "honor" which in this
    case can be defined as doing something out of respect for someone admired
    and/or held in high esteem.

    Phil 1:27 . . Conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of
    Christ.
    _
     
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  6. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    Protestants think the same about the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist as Muslims and Jews think about the Incarnation. God couldn't, wouldn't, or shouldn't become man. The dynamic is the same.
     
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  7. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And whenever one if you ignorant anti-Catholics attacks my posting style and formatting instead of addressing my points - it becomes glaringly apparent that I OBLITERATED your original point, leaving you with no valid response.

    Nice job . . .
     
  8. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Is this not too much of a generalization? You certainly are aware that there many thousands of Protestants groups without undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of members. Who knows them all much less the hearts and intents of each individual among them but God?

    "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen 18:25
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  9. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    John 6:53 . . Amen, Amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the
    Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.


    FAQ: Does that apply to Old Testament personages, e.g. Able, Noah,
    Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua. Ruth, Gideon, Samson, and David, et al?


    A: Yes; all of them.

    FAQ: How do you know that?

    A: Jesus' flesh benefits the whole world rather than only a portion of the
    world.

    John 6:51b . . the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.


    FAQ: Did they even know about Jesus back then?

    A: They may not have known his name, but they were all aware that a
    savior was on the way-- beginning with Adam and Eve.

    Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
    your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his
    heel.

    It's pretty much agreed on both sides of the aisle that the seed is Christ.

    Others besides Adam and Eve knew.

    Abraham:

    John 8:56 . . Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.

    Jacob:

    Gen 49:18 . . I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord

    Isaiah:

    Isa 52:14 . .There were many who were appalled at him-- his appearance
    was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond
    human likeness

    Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to
    his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    All the prophets:

    1Pet 1:10-11 . . Concerning this salvation, prophets who prophesied about
    the grace that was to be yours searched and investigated it, investigating
    the time and circumstances that the Spirit of Christ within them indicated
    when it testified in advance to the sufferings destined for Christ and the
    glories to follow them.

    David:

    Ps 16:10 . . You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor let your devout
    one see the pit. (cf. Acts 2:25-36)


    FAQ: Well, if there was no such thing as a communion service until Jesus'
    last supper, then how did those people back there eat his flesh and drink his
    blood?


    A: Hook, line, and sinker; so to speak; for example:.

    Many years ago, when I was a young welder just starting out in the trade, a
    Baptist man employed by the same company for whom I worked; asked me
    if I was going to heaven. Of course I replied that I didn't know: I was a
    Catholic, and Catholics don't know things like that. Then he asked me the
    question that put my life on a whole new track: Haven't you heard that
    Christ died for you?

    Of course I had heard of Christ's crucifixion in catechism, but not till that
    moment did I realize it was so personal, and especially; so complete.

    Coincidentally, I had only recently been doing some serious thinking about
    hell. The way I figured it; this kid would never be good enough to merit
    going to heaven, so hell was pretty much a foregone conclusion for the likes
    of me. But the very moment that man's question sank into my thick skull; I
    instantly knew that heaven was in the bag. I had swallowed the story about
    the offering of Jesus' flesh and blood for my sins hook, line, and sinker.

    Some may call me naïve for so easily buying into Jesus' dying for my sins,
    but I don't feel naïve; no, I feel very fortunate.

    Mark 10:15 . . I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the
    kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.
    _
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019 at 11:43 AM
  10. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    NO. it was genuine attempt to get you to adhere to the standard niceties on the internet.
     
  11. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    The Church teaches as Christ did - that unless we eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood we have no SPIRITUAL life within us.

    That is a Catholic idea only. I don't eat his flesh or drink his blood but I have spiritual life in me.

    "Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me”

    This was originally said in the setting of the annual Passover feast which was celebrated ONCE A YEAR. As the original church were Jews they would have done the same thing celebrated it once a year at the Passover feast.

    Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

    I don't hope. I know as in 2Ti 1:12 For this cause I also suffer these things; but I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard My deposit unto that Day.
     
  12. MetalMike

    MetalMike Active Member

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    This was very much a part of the early church as shown in Acts.

    Acts 2:42 (ESV) - "And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers."

    Acts 2:46 (ESV) - "And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts"

    I am not familiar with Catholic beliefs or what is taught. But the point is, there is nothing wrong at all with communion (or Eucharist). Differing denominations may have various reasons for communion, but it was an important part of the early church, and in turn, should be an important part in our worship.
     
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  13. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    I am not talking about the hearts and intents of thousands of Protestants, I am comparing the lack of faith of Jews and Muslims in the Incarnation with the lack of faith of Protestants who refuse to believe even when it is carefully explained and they fully understand. John 6:66. They walked away not because Jesus failed to teach them, they walked away because they refused to believe. You are not accountable for failing to understand. Refusing to believe is a different kettle of fish. Pun intended.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
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  14. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Eating and drinking Christ represents that we partake of His life both in the visible (tangible) things represented by the visible flesh ....and the invisible (intangible) things represented by what we can't see such as the flow of blood (life) in a body.

    If we only do those things that are visible, by using our carnal senses...then we are only eating His body but NOT drinking His blood. So then there is no eternal life in us.

    The life is in the blood. When we walk in the power of His eternal blood it is HIS eternal kind of life that is flowing through us. So this can be said to be "drinking" His blood.

    When we use our own minds to understand what humility and being a servant is, from His examples...we are eating His words...His body.

    So then we need two sets of faculties to eat and to drink. The one is natural. The natural faculties of the mind. But we only partake of His blood by spiritual faculties, the supernatural faculties of the Holy Spirit in the one who is born of the Spirit.
     
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  15. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    Scripture doesn't support your spiritualizing. The Eucharist is both PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL. You can believe whatever you want, but if you are challenging the Catholic understanding of "spiritual"...

    John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 – He uses an even more literal verb, translated as “trogo,” which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While “phago” might also have a spiritual application, “trogo” is never used metaphorically in Greek. So Protestants cannot find one verse in Scripture where “trogo” is used symbolically, and yet this must be their argument if they are going to deny the Catholic understanding of Jesus’ words. Moreover, the Jews already knew Jesus was speaking literally even before Jesus used the word “trogo” when they said “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” (John 6:52).

    John 6:55 – to clarify further, Jesus says “For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed.” This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus’ flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as “sarx.” “Sarx” means flesh (not “soma” which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where “sarx” means flesh. It is always literal.

    John 6:55 – further, the phrases “real” food and “real” drink use the word “alethes.” “Alethes” means “really” or “truly,” and would only be used if there were doubts concerning the reality of Jesus’ flesh and blood as being food and drink. Thus, Jesus is emphasizing the miracle of His body and blood being actual food and drink.

    John 3:6 – Jesus often used the comparison of “spirit versus flesh” to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still “in the flesh.”
     
  16. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    LOL...A beautiful example of someone contradicting themselves in the very thing they err in.
     
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  17. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    You simply said, "Protestants" which sounded very comprehensive as if every one under the Protestant banner would be included. Sorry if I misunderstood your meaning.

    Are you saying then that refusal to believe something carefully explained is equal to a lack of faith? When they walked away from Jesus was that really a refusal to believe or a lack understanding? Someone who really knows Jesus should believe without understanding. Isn't that faith?

    The understanding when and if it is needed will certainly be given to a person walking with Jesus by faith, will it not?
     
  18. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    Standing in front of the greatest Teacher the world has ever seen, and He failed to teach them? I don't think so. They understood, they walked away John 6:66 because they refused to believe. Do you refuse to believe in Jesus' abilities to teach as well?
    Supernatural faith to believe in the Real Presence is a gift from God, and thousands of Protestant ministers and scholars have done this because they have been called to.
    Catholic Conversion Stories - The Coming Home Network
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  19. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Teachers can teach, but if the hearers have not ears to hear or they have closed their ears, God does not force feed. Yes, the ears to hear are from God through the Holy Spirit within a person, but sometime people do quench the Holy Spirit. I guess you could call that "refusing to hear" or it could that people have routinely quenched the Holy Spirit until they now walk in delusion making them spiritually deaf.
     
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  20. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    No - it was nothing but another cowardly anti-Catholic cop-out.

    Whenever sn anti-Catholic is short on answers, they attack formatting style.
    It's standard procedure . . .
     
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