Countering Jehovah's Witnesses

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Webers_Home

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My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's
Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and naïve, and thus
assumed that the hewer of wood, and hauler of water who came down the
driveway was a fellow Christian. But when I talked this over with a
Protestant church elder he became alarmed; and urged me to read a little
book titled 30 Years A Watchtower Slave by William J. Schnell; whom the
Society at one time demonized as an agent of Satan. I would not be
surprised if it still does.

After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards
steered towards another book titled Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter Martin.
No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of classes sponsored by a
local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The instructor
(call him Pete) was an ex Witness who had been in the Watch Tower Society
system for near three decades and was a wide-area manager before
terminating his association with the Society; so he knew the ins and outs of
its doctrines pretty good.

Pete pioneered a small organization in San Diego dedicated to de
programming and re-educating ex Witnesses. It was a challenge. The ex
JW's with whom Pete worked were often very depressed with feelings of
betrayal and disillusionment-- not to mention the humiliation and the
despondence they were experiencing from letting themselves be duped by
the Society's ingenious sophistry --and found it nigh impossible to trust
ecclesiastical authority. Pete said that had he not been an ex Witness
himself; many of his students would never have listened to him.

Pete didn't train us to defeat the Society's missionaries in a discussion
because even if you best them scripture for scripture, rebuttal for rebuttal,
and refute for refute, they will not give up on the Society. Their mind's
unflinching premise is that the Society is right even when it can be easily
proven wrong. No, he trained us to do seven things:

1• Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and
discuss it with you.

2• Don't give them a chance to launch into their spiel, but immediately put
them on the defensive with your own questions, thus denying them control
of the conversation

3• Do not get embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas,
Christmas trees, blood transfusions, the design of the wooden device upon
which Christ was crucified, service in the military, and that sort of thing.

4• Force them to listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have
to repeat yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise
your voice. Do not let them turn their attention elsewhere while you're
speaking.

5• Do not permit them to butt in and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but firmly,
insist that they remain silent until you are finished speaking.

6• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They
will sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more
knowledgeable. When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely
for their time and then ask them to leave and come back when they have
the information. Do not let them stay and start a new topic of their own.

7• It's very important to show them the Bible not in ways they've already
seen, but in ways they've never imagined.

The goal is to simply show missionaries that the Society's isn't the only
interpretation out there. In other words: the Watchtower Society's
interpretations aren't the only option; nor are theirs eo ipso the right
interpretations just because they say so.

Later on, I read a book titled Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses by Ted
Dencher and eventually purchased a copy of the Society's Kingdom
Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures to use in my discussions with
missionaries because it is the one Bible that they cannot challenge; nor dare
to challenge. I also read and studied the Society's little brown book titled
Reasoning From The Scriptures.

From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although
the Watchtower Society uses many of Christianity's standard terms and
phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in
Society-speak than what you'd expect. It is genuinely a case of apples and
oranges going by the same names. So your first challenge in dealing with a
Watch Tower missionary is to scale the semantics barrier; and that by itself
is an Herculean task.

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Dave24

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Why would you spend your time trying to prove them wrong?

Maybe your time could be better spent doing what they are doing...spreading the good news of God's Kingdom.

Matt 24:14...if someone don't do it then the prophecy won't be fulfilled!
 

Dave24

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Jesus warned against false prophets and how to identify them - Matt 7:15-29... You should get an idea from this who the false prophets are! Just be aware, the false prophets might be who you never expected
 

Webers_Home

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Dave24 said:
Why would you spend your time trying to prove them wrong?
The ex Witness whom I mentioned in post #1 didn't train us to prove
Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong, but to simply show them that the Watch
Tower Society's interpretations aren't the only option out there; and that the
Society's interpretations aren't eo ipso the right interpretations just because
they say so.

=============================
 

Dave24

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I have no problem with that. One thing you must remember is that many of the JW's actually left "the other options". So you should expect resistance, they have been there, done that...
 

Webers_Home

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Jesus warned against false prophets and how to identify them
John also told how to identify false prophets.

†. 1 John 4:2-3 . . By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that
confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every
spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of
the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is
already in the world.

According to Watch Tower Society doctrine, it was not Jesus Christ who
came in the flesh, rather, it was an angel named Michael; which is an
interesting tale.

In Watch Tower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But the Society insists it is
impossible for someone to exist as a human being and a spirit being
simultaneously. So then, in order for Michael to come to the earth as a
human being, his existence as an angel had to be terminated.

However, according to the Society, Michael's life force survived his death;
and was transferred to Mary's womb where Michael was re-born as a human
being.

I am unaware at this time as to the Society's disposition of Michael's angel
corpse during the years on earth when he was existing as a human being.

But Michael's existence as a human being was only temporary. When God
"raised" Jesus from the dead, it was not actually Jesus who got raised from
the dead; it was Michael. Seeing as how Michael the angel had gone
completely out of existence when he became Jesus the human being; God
had to re-create Michael the angel from memory; in other words: in Society
theology, Michael the angel has undergone creation twice.

Bottom line: According to the Society; Jesus Christ's crucified body is still
dead; and his remains are squirreled away somewhere on earth in a
condition and a location known only to God.

What about Christ's alleged post resurrection appearances?

Well; according to the Society; those were not actually Christ. Those were
Michael disguised in a human avatar that was, in all respects, a perfect, fully
functioning knock-off of the real Christ.

===========================
 

Dave24

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I have no problem with that explanation! There are many things that we are unaware of when it comes to the Creator and his creations.
The angels themselves took on human form and had sexual relations with earthly woman. We must also not forget that God has no limitations.
 

Dave24

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Also the JW's believe that Michael and Jesus is the same "person", thus there is no problem, Jesus did come in the flesh.
 

Dave24

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heretoeternity said:
Sounds a lot like scientology cult or Roman global (catholic) religious cult doesn't it?
Personally i never refer to other faiths as cults...for me its a word that carries "derogatory connotations". It would not be Christ like to do that!

Just my opinion
 

Webers_Home

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†. 1Cor 15:50 . . This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit
God’s kingdom,

That's a popular proof text for defending the theory that Jesus Christ does
not have a material body in heaven. But any honest reading of 1Cor 15:35-
54 easily reveals that Paul is speaking of natural flesh and blood in contrast
to supernatural flesh and blood. In other words: flesh and blood that's subject
to death and putrefaction in contrast to flesh and blood that impervious to
death and putrefaction. I don't know how the Society missed that; but then,
you know; maybe they didn't. I rather suspect that they have reached a
point where they can't turn back.

Anyway; the Watch Tower Society's resurrection doctrine is atypical. Theirs
is a re-creation resurrection because its theology supports the notion that
human life is entirely material; viz: when people die, they go completely out
of existence. So in order to get them back into existence, God has to re
create them.

One of the Society's re-creation resurrections brings people back in a spirit
body; which is based upon a variety of passages like Matt 22:30 and
portions of the 15th chapter of first Corinthians.

I'm going to deliberately misquote 1Cor 15:44. Watch for the changes.

"It is sown a material body; it is raised a spirit body. There is a material
body, and there is a spirit body."

I did it like that to bring out the point that the koiné Greek word for
"spiritual" is ambiguous; viz: it doesn't always indicate a gaseous substance.
Below is a list of spiritual things that bear absolutely no resemblance
whatsoever to a gaseous substance.

Spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11)
Spiritual law (Rom 7:14)
Spiritual things (Rom 15:27)
Spiritual people (1Cor 2:15)
Spiritual nourishment (1Cor 10:3)
Spiritual water (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual rock (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)
Spiritual music (Eph 5:19)
Spiritual understanding (Col 1:9)
Spiritual housing (1Pet 2:5)
Spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5)

So, with all that under our belts; I propose that we paraphrase 1Cor 15:44
to read as follows:

"It is sown a normal human body, it is raised up a superhuman body. There
is a natural body, and there is a supernatural body."

That works for me because words like "superhuman" and "supernatural"
imply a human body similar in some respects to the man of steel popularly
known at Comic Con as Superman. The heroic figure from the planet
Krypton isn't constructed of spirit; but rather; of some sort of indestructible
material. It looks like ordinary human tissue; but in his case, appearances
can be deceiving.

I sincerely believe that the spiritual body spoken of at 1Cor 15:44 is in no
way composed of spirit. Of what material it is composed I don't know; but I
do know at least three things about it. One is that the material is totally
unknown to modern physics, and two; it's living tissue, and the third is that
it's impervious to death and putrefaction.

All of the natural elements listed on the periodic table are those that God
created in the first chapter of Genesis. But those elements were custom
crafted for the current cosmos with all of its known and unknown forms of
life, matter, and energy. Heavenly elements are not of this cosmos. They are
unknown to modern physics; and it is those elements that God used to
construct Christ's glorious body. It resembles normal flesh and blood, but
that's where the resemblance ends.

The spiritual body is a glorious body.

†. Matt 16:28-17:2 . .Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are
standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man
coming in His kingdom. And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and
James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain by
themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like
the sun, and His garments became as white as light." (Matt 16:28-17:2)

A glorious body is capable of dining upon ordinary foods.

†. Luke 22:15-16 . . I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you
before I suffer. For I tell you: I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in
the kingdom of God.

A glorious body is capable of imbibing ordinary beverages.

†. Matt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now
on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

A glorious body is an heavenly body.

†. Php 3:20-21 . . Our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a
savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him
to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that
they will be like his glorious body.

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Dave24

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I really don't get your point here. My view on this is that there are:

1) Humans were created to live on earth.
2) Angels were created to reside in heaven, they had the ability to even "transform" themselves into human bodies when they had sexual relations with woman and fathered children...
3) What their "physical" makeup is no one knows, fact is that they are different from us...
4) Some humans were given power to do things outside our natural laws.
5) Is is very logical that when a human receives the gift to reside in heaven he will be transformed in order to live in that environment.
6) It is also logical that the angels in heaven have different abilities, different functions, different levels of power...Jesus received obviously the most power by His Father.

Reading more into scripture than what is there is very dangerous...reason why there are so many versions of Christian faiths...
 

Webers_Home

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Dave24 said:
I really don't get your point here.
The Watch Tower Society alleges that Jesus Christ's resurrection was not a
resurrection as most people understand the process, but rather; Christ's
material body was left dead and he was re-created as a non material being:
specifically a spirit being. In other words; according to the Watch Tower
Society; Jesus Christ is no longer a man; he's an angel.

You know of course that the Society's allegation has a fatal flaw; and it's
this:

†. John 2:19-22 . . Jesus said to them: Break down this temple, and in three
days I will raise it up. Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in
forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days? But he was talking
about the temple of his body. When, though, he was raised up from the
dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this; and they believed
the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said.

You see, if Christ's material body had not been restored to life, his prediction
would be easily proven false.


Dave24 said:
Humans were created to live on earth.
That's only true of the original human race. In other words: there are now
two human races: there is earth's race pioneered by Adam, and there is
heaven's race pioneered by Christ.

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Dave24

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It says "body" and you say material "body"...

If it makes you happy to add your own personal words to the written Word, then by all means do it.
There is nothing in the verse you quoted above that indicates a material body, if it was meant to be so then i am sure the Word would have contained "material" or "physical.
 

Dave24

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1 Cor 15:44 - There are physical bodies (us) and there are spiritual bodies (God, angels).
For me its quite simple that some of the humans will receive the great gift to be transformed into spiritual bodies, thus they will become like angels. Myself i do not have that hope.
Jesus was resurrected in a spiritual body, He had/has the power to take on human form so that His apostles could see and even touch Him. So that they would actually prove to them that he was resurrected.
Plain and simple to understand, God in His wisdom made the bible easy to understand. It is people who make it complicated, trying to prove their warped versions of the truth.

Adam and Eve were told by God, that they would die if they ate from the tree. He did not say you will not die, but I am going to send you to a fiery hell to be tortured. That is people's warped version. God is loving and kind, He clearly states that the wages of sin is DEATH. We need to believe and trust Him!

You can spin it just like you want, others will spin it in another direction. At the end there is only one truth. We must also admit that there are things "lost in translation", not all translators understand the responsibility to translate accurately.

Again my view...
 

Webers_Home

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The Watchtower Society's form of theology is called monolatrism, which
basically alleges that all gods are actual deities; though not all deities are
deemed worthy of worship. This is not quite the same as polytheism where
numerous gods are all considered worthy of worship.

Monolatrism is distinguished from monotheism (asserts the existence of only
one god) and distinguished from henotheism— a religious system in which
the believer worships one god alone without denying that others may
worship different gods of equal value.

While traditional Christianity recognizes but two categories of gods; the
Watch Tower Society's theologians took the liberty to create a third category
of gods sandwiched between the true and the false called "mighty ones".
The mighty-one category is a sort of neutral zone where qualifying
personages exist as bona fide deities without violating the very first of the
Ten Commandments. For example:

"I myself have said: You are gods" (Ps 82:6)

The gods referred to in that statement are human beings; which everybody
knows are not true deities; so in order to avoid stigmatizing human beings
as false gods, the Society classifies them as mighty ones.

This gets kind of humorous when we plug "mighty one" into various
locations. For example:

"In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was a mighty one." (John 1:1)

And another.

"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten mighty one who is in
the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him." (John
1:18)

The neutral zone was an invention of necessity. In other words: without it,
the Society would be forced to classify the Word and the only-begotten as
false gods seeing as how John 17:3, and a host of other passages, testify
that there is only one true god.

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Dave24

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True, there are Gods and Lords...but there is only one true God. Nothing really wrong with referring to some as Lords or Gods. Even the Almighty Himself told Moses that Moses would be a God to Aaron!

I have no problem with that, if you go deeper into the scriptures you would find that even angels are referred to as Gods. Isaiah 42:8.... however our worship should be directed to the LORD alone.
 

Webers_Home

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†. Jer 10:10 . . Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God

Yhvh is called "the living god" something like fifteen times in the Old
Testament, and fifteen more times in the New Testament.

I'm unaware of any other gods in the whole Bible labeled living gods.
Because of that; I think it safe to conclude that no other god is a living god;
viz: all other gods are lifeless gods; including the gods in Psalm 82 of whom
it is said "You are gods". And if the Word of John 1:1 is merely another god,
then he too is a lifeless god; along with the only-begotten god of John 1:18.
If that's true, then it would be legitimate to paraphrase John 1:1 like this:

"In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with the living God, and
the Word was a lifeless god."

And John 1:18 like this:

"No man has seen the living God at any time; the only-begotten lifeless god,
who is in the bosom position with the Father, is the one that has explained
him."

Just about everybody on both sides of the aisle agrees that Jesus Christ is a
god. The trick is: Jesus Christ isn't like the other gods; no, he's a living god.

†. John 5:26 . . For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted
also to the Son to have life in himself.

If indeed there were more than one living god, then we'd have to translate
Jer 10:10 in a manner similar to the Watch Tower Society's translation of
John 1:1; like this:

"Jehovah is in truth a god. He is a living god."

When God granted the Son to have life in himself just as the Father has life
in Himself, things got a bit complicated; viz: it appears that God caused
there to be one too many living gods out there.

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Webers_Home

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†. Col 1:15 . . He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all
creation

The Watch Tower Society has appropriated that verse as evidence that the
Word of John 1:1-3 was the first thing that God ever created. However, the
New Testament Greek word for "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos which
the Watchtower Society has construed to mean "created first" but prototokos
never means created first; no, it always means born first; viz: the eldest
offspring. The correct Greek word for created first is protoktistos.

The average door-to-door Watch Tower Society missionary doesn't know
this; and no doubt would care little for it anyway. To them; born first and
created first are one and the same.

FYI
: Though the birth order of the child born first is chronologically set in
concrete; its advantages are transferable to a younger sibling; e.g. Esau and
Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben and
Joseph. (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1)

There was a time when David held the rank of God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27).
Anon, its advantages were transferred to one of David's sons. (Ps 110:1,
Dan 7:13-14, Mark 12:35-37, Php 2:9-11, Col 1:15)

OBJECTION
: God's son being "born first," as stated at Colossians 1:15 is
evidence, from the scriptures, that God's son must have been created.
Why so? Because only created beings can be "born."

RESPONSE: The objector encumbered themselves with a humanistic axiom
that very effectively paralyzed their thinking; viz: apparently it had not yet
occurred to them that it just might be possible that God is able to reproduce.

However; "firstborn" is not restricted to birth-- it's primarily the title of a
position of superiority; and as such, is transferable.

Putting that in an Army chain of command context: there's the privates, the
sergeants, the officers, and ultimately the US President-- supreme
commander of all the armed forces. In rank, and in principle; Mr. Obama is
the firstborn of all the armed forces; but after the next election, the torch
may very well pass to Hillary Clinton and then she will be the firstborn of all
the armed forces.

But we're not done here yet. According to Col 1:16-17, God's son created all
things, and existed before all things: which means of course that God's son
not only created Adam but also that God's son preceded Adam. Well; it's
very easy to prove that Christ descended biologically from Adam. So the fact
of the matter is: God's son created Christ's biological progenitor.

I suspect the trinity's opponents get fouled up with Christ's origin because
they are unable to discern the difference between the Word of John 1:1-3
and the flesh that the Word became in John 1:14.

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Webers_Home

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Below are some passages taken word-for-word from a version of the Watch
Tower Society's proprietary Bible. Watch for the word in brackets: it's very
important.

Col 1:16a . . By means of him all [other] things were created.

Col 1:16b . . All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

Col 1:17 . . Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all
[other] things were made to exist.

The word "other" is in brackets to indicate that it's not in the New
Testament's Greek manuscripts. The Society's editors took the liberty to
pencil it into the English text; thus forcing Paul to substantiate their
proprietary doctrine that the Word of John 1:1 is a creature rather than the
creator. If perchance some of the Society's missionaries don't know that
then all I can say is they have a lot of catching up to do.

Here's those same passages with the penciled word removed.

"By means of him all things were created"

"All things have been created through him and for him"

"Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made to
exist"

If the passages without the penciled word are valid; viz: if God's beloved son
created all things rather than all other things; then no question about it;
John 1:3 is literal-- it means exactly what it says and requires no
interpretation. It also means that the Word of John 1:1 is the God of Genesis
1:1. But it would likely be futile to point this out to a Watch Tower Society
missionary because they are typically far more loyal to the Society than they
are to either Paul or John.

Now; as to forcing Paul's teachings to mean things they don't say in writing;
this is what Peter has to say about that.

†. 2Pet 3:15-16 . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as
salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given
him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all his
letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the
untaught and unsteady are twisting, as they do also the rest of the
Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Untaught people are oftentimes self-taught; and were modern Witnesses to
check into ol' Charles T. Russell's rather ignoble past; they'd find that "self
taught" pretty much describes the origin of the Society's theology.

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