Daniel's 70Th Week: Warnings

[veteran]

Some here aren't familiar with the seminary doctrines of men called Preterism and Historicism. Those seminary views treat the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 in the 70 weeks prophecy as already having been fulfilled. I think it fair to warn those who understand the coming of a false messiah just prior to our Lord Jesus' second coming about some of the modified ideas of those two views being pushed today, just so you'll know what it's about, and why I see those views as danger for anyone who understands we are to make a stand for Christ Jesus during the coming great tribulation.

Look at the following prophecy from Daniel concerning the dream of the beast image Nebuchadnezzar was given, and God gave Daniel to interpret...


Dan 2:41-45
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
(KJV)

Notice that "in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed", and "it shall stand forever." Has that happened yet? Lot of Preterists and Historicists will say yes, which is why they don't recognize the final week of the Daniel 9 prophecy as being yet future to us. That prophecy is declaring that in the days of those kings of the ten toes, God will establish a Kingdom that will never be destroyed and will be everlasting.

The previous beast kingdoms of that image were historical Babylon (head of gold), Medo-Persia (breast and arms of silver), Macedonia under Alexander (belly and thighs of brass), and the Roman empire (legs of iron). The beast kingdom of the feet of part iron and part clay is still yet to manifest today. And it is to be existing when Christ comes to smite the image upon its feet, and the whole image together comes tumbling down. Then Christ is to setup His everlasting Kingdom instead. The Historicist often treat that last beast of the feet with ten toes as the old Roman system of history. They will try to use the idea of ten kings being ten kingdoms established in western Europe of nations that ended the Roman empire's reign around the 4th-5th century A.D. But note what God's Word declares about that beast image and the establishing of His Kingdom...

Dan 2:32-35
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

That "stone" cut out without hands which is to smite the beast image on its feet, and the whole together comes falling down, is a symbol for our Lord Jesus Christ. He is The Stone which the builders rejected (Matt.21:42 our Lord quoting from Ps.118). Notice especially, that when that Stone smites the image upon its feet of ten toes, all those separate pieces of the gold, the silver, the brass, the iron, and the clay, TOGETHER come falling down like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors. Thus the kingdom of the feet of ten toes made up of part iron and part clay is to be existing at the time of Christ's return to this earth upon the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14; Acts 1).

What is that "chaff" a symbol for? It's a symbol for the chaff being burned up by God's consuming fire at the end of this world, at Christ's coming (Luke 3:17; Zeph.2:2; Isa.33:11). The "chaff" is a symbol like the "tares" in our Lord's parable of the tares of the field. That "no place was found for them" is about the end of all the kingdoms of this world. And then Christ's Kingdom is that "great mountain" that fills the whole earth. It's quite obvious today on earth we do not see that, for note that great mountain is to fill the whole earth, this earth. And per Zechariah 14, all peoples are to go up to Jerusalem to worship The KING (Christ Jesus) when that "great mountain" is established at Jerusalem on earth. As written there also, there will only be one LORD over all the earth, not the many religious factions of today with their various gods.

What is happening in the world today that poses a danger to those who have accepted the false doctrines of men that Christ's second coming was past history? Why would hardline Preterists want to deny a literal bodily second coming of our Lord Jesus as written? Why would they want to believe that Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 has already begun?

It shouldn't be difficult at all to see how globalist movements towards a one world government system exist as definite signs today that a final world beast kingdom is busy forming up over all nations. Yet with believing doctrines of men that Christ's second coming was history, and only a spiritual coming, what kind of ideas about today's forming up of a one world government system is being taught them? They will be deceived into thinking that this present world can become Christ's Kingdom. Per the Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley's 1960's book, Tragedy and Hope, he revealed how some high leaders in the West that are also Christians, believe it is their duty to create a one world kingdom for all nations, now, without our Lord Jesus' bodily presence here on earth. That is the work of the Global Church movement today. That movement is using the principles of Socialism, trying to replace descriptions of our Lord's future Kingdom on earth with the idea of the present movement towards a one world government. In reality, those Christian high leaders are being duped into believing they can do that in place of our Lord Jesus Christ. They are being deceived into helping the enemies of Christ by trying to do that, and many of them have no clue of how they and Christianity is being used.

Moreover, The LORD revealed this very joining of nations idea as a time marker for the end of this world, just prior to our Lord Jesus' second coming. It is specifically what the final "one week" (7 years) of Dan.9:27 through Dan.12 is about. It is specifically about the beast kingdom of Rev.13, and the endtime Babylon harlot city of Rev.17, and "...the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of Almighty God" (Rev.16).

Thus we should beware of men's doctrines that try to treat this present world as being a replacement for what God's Word declares about His future Kingdom that will manifest upon this earth after Christ Jesus returns on the 7th trumpet. The beast image part of the feet of toes of part iron and part clay is being setup on the earth today. Per the Daniel 2 prophecy, it is to include ALL the previous beast kingdom types of history within it, and they all "together" fall when Christ comes to smite it upon its feet. It represents a joining of all nations and religions on earth today under one banner, their declaring the lie that there are many paths to Salvation by the same God.

 

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The notion of a perfect human society is also called 'utopia' and it preceeds the days of the poet Plato. I did a fair amount of research on it for my science fiction book (mentioned below). Utopian fantasies have been repeated throughout history and Christian adaptations of the idea are only the most recent.

I find myself in agreement with all of the leading post in this thread except one. The final worldly kingdom pictured in the vision of the prophet Daniel is already in place. I'm not going to copy the pertinent passages, but if you want to read them go back up and have a look. Dan 2:41-45

The prophecy of the last world empire describes a group of kingdoms or sovereign nations which have given part of their support to the whole. The vision describes what modern historians call a Confederacy; a govenment of independent states loosely bound together but maintaining their identity. The Confederacy in question also has a military or iron component. Finally, Daniel's vision declares that it will be a human empire.

The final world empire, which is already in place, is the United Nations.

Consider that every nation on the planet is a member.
Consider that all have retained their national identity, but have given a portion of their allegiance to it.
Consider that the United Nations has an effect upon every nation, however invisible that may be. Did you know, for example, that the colors of traffic lights (red, yellow and green) and that their placement (red on top, yellow in middle and green on bottom), is a United Nations mandate? All of us are affected every day by this one simple rule among many. The rule of a global empire.
Consider that the United Nations can field an army and actually has several small contingents in place throughout the world as I write.
Consider that the United Nations fits EXACTLY the description of Daniel written down thousands and thousands of years ago.

Is this a coincidence?

In my opinion, if it looks like a duck and if it swims like a duck and if it quacks like a duck then it probably IS a duck.
Will the United Nations become a tool for the anti-Christ? We shall see.
Will the United Nations be the last world empire? We shall see.
Will the coming of Christ break this institution to pieces? Many already wish it were destroyed.
Is the Kingdom of God on Earth coming soon? I certainly hope so.

 

[omnicopy]

The notion of a perfect human society is also called 'utopia' and it preceeds the days of the poet Plato. I did a fair amount of research on it for my science fiction book (mentioned below). Utopian fantasies have been repeated throughout history and Christian adaptations of the idea are only the most recent.

I find myself in agreement with all of the leading post in this thread except one. The final worldly kingdom pictured in the vision of the prophet Daniel is already in place. I'm not going to copy the pertinent passages, but if you want to read them go back up and have a look. Dan 2:41-45

The prophecy of the last world empire describes a group of kingdoms or sovereign nations which have given part of their support to the whole. The vision describes what modern historians call a Confederacy; a govenment of independent states loosely bound together but maintaining their identity. The Confederacy in question also has a military or iron component. Finally, Daniel's vision declares that it will be a human empire.

The final world empire, which is already in place, is the United Nations.

Consider that every nation on the planet is a member.
Consider that all have retained their national identity, but have given a portion of their allegiance to it.
Consider that the United Nations has an effect upon every nation, however invisible that may be. Did you know, for example, that the colors of traffic lights (red, yellow and green) and that their placement (red on top, yellow in middle and green on bottom), is a United Nations mandate? All of us are affected every day by this one simple rule among many. The rule of a global empire.
Consider that the United Nations can field an army and actually has several small contingents in place throughout the world as I write.
Consider that the United Nations fits EXACTLY the description of Daniel written down thousands and thousands of years ago.

Is this a coincidence?

In my opinion, if it looks like a duck and if it swims like a duck and if it quacks like a duck then it probably IS a duck.
Will the United Nations become a tool for the anti-Christ? We shall see.
Will the United Nations be the last world empire? We shall see.
Will the coming of Christ break this institution to pieces? Many already wish it were destroyed.
Is the Kingdom of God on Earth coming soon? I certainly hope so.

It looks to me like the UN is being used by the antichrist. It is very bias against Isreal. It does nothing at all about Iran. Iran is the only nation in the UN that actually out and out threatens another UN member. The UN is terribly unfair I think.

Kim

 

[veteran]

My main hope in what I posted was to warn believers on our Lord Jesus Christ about wrongly believing on the present movement of internationalist global one world government to join all nations under one head, is NOT Christ's Kingdom to come.

Although the U.N. appears to be the seat of it, in reality the U.N. is simply a tool for the movement. That should be understood by the signs of the end our Lord Jesus gave through His Apostle John in Revelation, and in our Lord's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13.

One of the signs our Lord gave about the final beast kingdom, is that it will have a king reigning over all of it, and which ten other lower kings will help.

That is a sign of a universal monarchy. Not a dictatorship, not a Republic (like Plato's), not a Democracy, nor even a constitutional republic like the United States is.

It is a sign of a head king upon a throne, ruling over all nations and all other thrones, on earth.

Our Lord Jesus also gave us the sign that king ("dragon" of Rev.13) will also be head of all religion. In that role the king becomes a priest over all that is worshipped.

It is the occultic concept of the Priest/King (what they label as the Philosopher/King).

In Truth though, it is an attempt to copy Christ's Role as our True Priest and King, "Lord of lords, and King of kings" (Rev.17:14).

Organizations like the U.N. is only a tool to help bring forth that future "Utopian" monarchy.

The fallen cherub Satan is who is ultimately behind that coming fake copy of Christ's True Monarchy Kingdom. Very important to see that difference today.

Revelation 11 mentions a temple in Jerusalem during the tribulation timing (2nd woe - 6th trumpet timing).

Ezekiel 40 forward shows Christ's True Temple on earth where He and His elect (Zadok) will reign from with a rod of iron. So again, that temple of Rev.11 is the pattern of the fake, and then the True with the temple in Ezekiel 40 forward. The fake has to manifest first.

The fake temple and beast kingdom is not yet complete today. We can easily still see individual leaders over the nations and without a specific monarch in power, with power to work great signs and miracles on earth at the same time (i.e., a false messiah like our Lord warned of in His Olivet discourse).

 

[precepts]

It's obvious, with all due respect, that your doctrine is carnal, physical. If one was to think spiritually, one would recognize that the heavenly kingdom of Christ was established during the Roman empire. It was Christ's crucifixion that ushered in mankind's retrieval from death and the grave. It was during Rome's occupation of Israel that God began the process of establishing his eternal heavenly kingdom for mankind. Man would be resurrected into God's heavenly kingdom. Man would become like the angels and dwell with God in heaven. All other theories, interpretations are carnal minded. That's a fact! :mellow:

 

[veteran]

It's obvious, with all due respect, that your doctrine is carnal, physical. If one was to think spiritually, one would recognize that the heavenly kingdom of Christ was established during the Roman empire. It was Christ's crucifixion that ushered in mankind's retrieval from death and the grave. It was during Rome's occupation of Israel that God began the process of establishing his eternal heavenly kingdom for mankind. Man would be resurrected into God's heavenly kingdom. Man would become like the angels and dwell with God in heaven. All other theories, interpretations are carnal minded. That's a fact! :mellow:

As written in the OT prophets, and revealed by The Lord Jesus Christ through His Apostles, His Kingdom will be upon this earth in the future. Until that time when He returns to this earth bodily how He ascended to Heaven per Acts 1, His Kingdom is manfiested here in spirit through His servants on this earth. And when He returns, He will inherit both us who believe on Him, and all the kingdoms upon this earth.

But what the doctrines of men you listen to are preparing you for, is to meet the antichrist false messiah who comes to earth prior to Christ Jesus. If you keep listening to those doctrines of men, you will be fooled into bowing to the false messiah instead. Your choice.

 

[RND]

The 70th week has been fulfilled.

Six things were required in Daniel 9:24 to be accomplished during the 70 weeks. The last was to anoint the most holy. Jesus is not coming back to be anointed because He is the anointed one. He was anointed by His Father and that why He is called Messiah.

Both futurism (dispensationalism) and preterism are inventions of the RCC during the reformation: http://www.hol.com/~mikesch/antichrist.htm
None of the early Protestant reformers believed the antichrist was anyone but Rome and Papacy.

Dan 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to 1) finish the transgression, and to 2) make an end of sins, and to 3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to 4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to 5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to 6) anoint the most Holy.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

 

[veteran]

What you're preaching is a Historicist view, which has many alignments with Preterist doctrines. The two schools are mixed a lot today, both treating 70 A.D. as fulfilling the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel.

Maybe you need to go back and read the early Church fathers too, for many of them mentioned the idea of a final antichrist which had nothing to do with a pope. The idea of a pope ("bishop of bishops") didn't start until later Church history, when the Roman Church had expanded into many countries with bishops trying to declare themselves independent from authority in Rome.

The anointing of the most holy in Dan.9 is about Christ's future Milennium Temple on earth where Jerusalem is. It's written of starting at Ezekiel 40.

Exod 40:9-10
9 And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy.
10 And thou shalt anoint the altar of the burnt offering, and all his vessels, and sanctify the altar: and it shall be an altar most holy.
(KJV)

 

[precepts]

Your trying to tell me that because I read and interpreted the bible a certain way, I got it from the Catholic church? That's ridiculoous! You're copping out and making excuses because a person with no church affiliation has correctly interpreted the 4th and 5th beasts.

Anyone with common sense can see and understand that Rome is the 4th/5th beast in Daniel and the 1st/2nd beasts in Revelation. Rome was a city that fenced in 7 of it's 10 hills as part of their city. There are only 8 hills remaining because 3 hills were made into one for the popes, fulfilling prophecy again.

Another fact , only the first 10 emperors were Ceasars. Nerva, the 11th emperor, made the emperors to be, Ceasars. Nerva the 11th emperor uprooted the Flavian Dynasty, Titus Flavius Vespasianus and his two sons, 3 emperors / horns. Nerva the 11th emperor was also the last Roman emperor to be Roman by birth or blood. These are facts.

Last but not least, the 8th emperor's name was adopted by the likes of Josephus the famous historian, Constantine and his mother, Helena, etc.

Your error is not acknowledging the fact that the stone that smote the image during the Roman era was in heaven. In Matthew, Christ, after his resurrection, tells his disciples all power in heaven and earth was given to him. If all power was given unto him then I would assume the kingdoms of the world became his then. .

 

[precepts]

veteran's

What you're preaching is a Historicist view, which has many alignments with Preterist doctrines. The two schools are mixed a lot today, both treating 70 A.D. as fulfilling the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel.

Maybe you need to go back and read the early Church fathers too, for many of them mentioned the idea of a final antichrist which had nothing to do with a pope.

What has that to do with someone's personal interpretation. Interpretation doesn't come from the history of interpretations but from the word.



veteran's

The idea of a pope ("bishop of bishops") didn't start until later Church history, when the Roman Church had expanded into many countries with bishops trying to declare themselves independent from authority in Rome.

The question is, what is a bishop?




veteran's

The anointing of the most holy in Dan.9 is about Christ's future Milennium Temple on earth where Jerusalem is. It's written of starting at Ezekiel 40.

That's your opinion not a fact. Your excuse is that you can't logically explain or interpret the prophecy so you assume it has to be in the future.

 

[RND]

What you're preaching is a Historicist view, which has many alignments with Preterist doctrines. The two schools are mixed a lot today, both treating 70 A.D. as fulfilling the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel.

In most Historicist viewpoints doesn't equate the destruction of the physical temple in 70AD. It equates with the destruction of the Spiritual temple that is Christ Jesus. The minute the word began to preached to the Gentiles is the minute the destruction of Israel was complete.

Maybe you need to go back and read the early Church fathers too, for many of them mentioned the idea of a final antichrist which had nothing to do with a pope. The idea of a pope ("bishop of bishops") didn't start until later Church history, when the Roman Church had expanded into many countries with bishops trying to declare themselves independent from authority in Rome.

They didn't see the RCC as antichrist because it wasn't founded yet. History helps us see clearly who the woman is that rides the beast.

The anointing of the most holy in Dan.9 is about Christ's future Milennium Temple on earth where Jerusalem is. It's written of starting at Ezekiel 40.

Exod 40:9-10
9 And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy.
10 And thou shalt anoint the altar of the burnt offering, and all his vessels, and sanctify the altar: and it shall be an altar most holy.
(KJV)

I'm sorry but I see Christ represented in the tabernacle and its attendant services. This is not referring to a future temple built in a secular nation/state but is referring to the tabernacle on earth which is patterned after the one in heaven. This is a huge problem with dispensationalism which takes verses that clearly were referring to one thing and attempts to place that meaning on some else.

Christ is the temple. It is clear for all to see.

Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

God bless you in your studies.

 

[veteran]

precepts, rnd,

You're both dwelling on the reformer's ideas that the pope was the antichrist from history long ago, when our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us specific signs that point to the very end of this world for the coming of a false one that will be manifest on earth in the days of His return. Centuries have past and Christ has still not yet returned. Preterism, in trying to answer that, has developed the idea that Christ's second coming is only about a spiritual coming, and that it happenned back in the Apostle's days, yet the early Church fathers don't attest to any such idea, for they showed they were still expecting Christ's coming in their days.

The idea that Paul was speaking of the spiritual Temple of Christ's Body of believers in 2 Thess.2:3-4 is more aligned to Gnostic belief than anything else. We have signs today in Jerusalem for the orthodox Jews preparing to build another temple, and start Levitical priestly sacrifices again. In time you will see.

 

[RND]

precepts, rnd,

You're both dwelling on the reformer's ideas that the pope was the antichrist from history long ago, when our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us specific signs that point to the very end of this world for the coming of a false one that will be manifest on earth in the days of His return. Centuries have past and Christ has still not yet returned.

The antichrist Pope is still in charge over allt he harlot daughters.

Preterism, in trying to answer that, has developed the idea that Christ's second coming is only about a spiritual coming, and that it happenned back in the Apostle's days, yet the early Church fathers don't attest to any such idea, for they showed they were still expecting Christ's coming in their days.

Everyone by now shoud know that both preterism and futurism(dispensaltionalism, Tim LaHayeism, Darbyism) arefalse.

The idea that Paul was speaking of the spiritual Temple of Christ's Body of believers in 2 Thess.2:3-4 is more aligned to Gnostic belief than anything else.

You mean Jesus was wrong in John2?

We have signs today in Jerusalem for the orthodox Jews preparing to build another temple, and start Levitical priestly sacrifices again. In time you will see.

Whichpoves what other than it is acomplete denial that Jesus Christ is the Risen Messiah. Christians that know that building another temple is a denial of the Christ has come and don't speak out against this are they themselves denying Jesus as Messiah!

Theycan build another temple and sacricfice lambs, goats, and even a red hefer if they want and it will mean absolutely NOTHING for the last sacrifice has been made. There are no more sacrifces for sin available.

 

[precepts]

That's what I keep telling them, there're of the anti-christ spirit. I rest my case!

 

[Paul]

That's what I keep telling them, there're of the anti-christ spirit. I rest my case!

p, who is the "them?"

 

[veteran]

The antichrist Pope is still in charge over allt he harlot daughters.

The pope is not in charge of any... Protestant Church I've been in, and I've been in quite a few.

Everyone by now shoud know that both preterism and futurism(dispensaltionalism, Tim LaHayeism, Darbyism) arefalse.

Preterism, Historicism, Futurism, Dispensationalism, it's all doctrines of men, tethers to keep us subserviant to the seminaries, and not directly to Christ. What is important is what God's Word actually teaches as written. Evidence of following men instead of God in His Word is the willingness to latch onto men's doctrines which are especially contrary to what's written in God's Word.

You mean Jesus was wrong in John2?

No our Lord Jesus was not wrong. You are, if you're trying to apply that one Temple example our Lord used about His Body to all other Scripture examples. Will you apply that to the physical temple our Lord Jesus visited in Jerusalem within that same John 2 chapter?

Whichpoves what other than it is acomplete denial that Jesus Christ is the Risen Messiah. Christians that know that building another temple is a denial of the Christ has come and don't speak out against this are they themselves denying Jesus as Messiah!

What is it you think I've been doing by warning others about the orthodox Jew's plan to build another temple in Jerusalem in order to startup the Old Covenant worship again? Do you think I'm part of that abomination just by warning others of my Christian brethren about it?

Theycan build another temple and sacricfice lambs, goats, and even a red hefer if they want and it will mean absolutely NOTHING for the last sacrifice has been made. There are no more sacrifces for sin available.

True, Christ Jesus is the Perfect Sacrifice for sin for one and all time. But those orthodox Jews don't know it's an abomination, simply because they have been taught to refuse Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour. And because God has ordained to allow them to be so deceived, it will also deceive many of our own brethren who believe on Jesus Christ, for many of our own are already being taught to flee to Jerusalem in the last days, and to accept the globalist doctrines for Jerusalem being pushed in many Churches today.

 

[RND]

The pope is not in charge of any... Protestant Church I've been in, and I've been in quite a few.

Sure he is! I'll prove it. Did you go into these churches on Rome's day, Sunday? I'm sure you did. Take time if you will to read the Pope's treatise on Rome's Sunday! http://biblelight.net/DiesDom.htm

"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. From beginning to end of scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."-- Catholic Press Sydney, Australia, August 1900.

Preterism, Historicism, Futurism, Dispensationalism, it's all doctrines of men, tethers to keep us subserviant to the seminaries, and not directly to Christ. What is important is what God's Word actually teaches as written. Evidence of following men instead of God in His Word is the willingness to latch onto men's doctrines which are especially contrary to what's written in God's Word.

That's not true quite frankly because God's word has one true meaning and one true revelation. Thus there is a proper and trustworthy way that it needs to be examined and that is to let God's word speak for, and answer itself. Men have been given the capacity to understand that and learn the interpretation of His word that God has given.

Take Daniel's 70 weeks. If we allow the word to speak for and interpret itself we see clearly that Daniel's 70th week is not set for future fulfillment but was fulfilled in Christ.

No our Lord Jesus was not wrong. You are, if you're trying to apply that one Temple example our Lord used about His Body to all other Scripture examples. Will you apply that to the physical temple our Lord Jesus visited in Jerusalem within that same John 2 chapter?

As a matter of fact I would! That temple in Jesus' day contained the same elements as the tabernacle in the wilderness. That tabernacle pointed to Christ. For goodness sake man Jesus even compared Himself to that temple.

What is it you think I've been doing by warning others about the orthodox Jew's plan to build another temple in Jerusalem in order to startup the Old Covenant worship again? Do you think I'm part of that abomination just by warning others of my Christian brethren about it?

What I think you are doing is warning people as if building another temple matters somehow instead of warning Jews that it is unnecessary because the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world has been sacrificed. I think if you knew these things better you'd have no problem being able to speaks to Jews about Christ.

True, Christ Jesus is the Perfect Sacrifice for sin for one and all time. But those orthodox Jews don't know it's an abomination, simply because they have been taught to refuse Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour.

And so telling others that a secular nation plans to build a temple that doesn't mean anything does what exactly? One thing I've noticed that I find quite disturbing is that fundamentalism in this country almost seems to encourage the building of this temple instead of preaching it means absolutely nothing. None of today's dispensationalist pastor's ever speak out against this proposed temple as meaning nothing. Why?

And because God has ordained to allow them to be so deceived, it will also deceive many of our own brethren who believe on Jesus Christ, for many of our own are already being taught to flee to Jerusalem in the last days, and to accept the globalist doctrines for Jerusalem being pushed in many Churches today.

And you really think not telling people people, whether they be Jew or gentile, that the type of the temple that Christ represented in anti-type does what exactly? None of these fundamentalist churches make mention of this obvious Biblical fact and that should be a great concern to anyone that attends such a church.

Bottom line Veteran is that dispensationalism is dangerous in its complacency and endorsement of the rebuilding of this temple. In short they are denying that Christ fulfilled all prophecy regarding the temple. Jesus is our temple now and we are individual stones in that temple. Any other teaching that denies this simple fact is fallacy and fantasy. God bless.

 

[omnicopy]

I won't listen to anything the churches teach today. I'd run from it and probably think exactly opposite of what they teach. That's a good rule of thumb to go by.

Kim

 

[RND]

I won't listen to anything the churches teach today. I'd run from it and probably think exactly opposite of what they teach. That's a good rule of thumb to go by.

Kim

Can't say I disagree with that!

 

[veteran]

Sure he is! I'll prove it. Did you go into these churches on Rome's day, Sunday? I'm sure you did. Take time if you will to read the Pope's treatise on Rome's Sunday! http://biblelight.net/DiesDom.htm

"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. From beginning to end of scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."-- Catholic Press Sydney, Australia, August 1900.

That's an argument pushed especially by Messianic Jews. Are you Jewish? I didn't know Christians were not allowed to worship any other day but only on Saturday. If we meet in worship on any other day of the week than Saturday, then that is false religion? Is that what you're saying? Christ made the Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath, as written.

That's not true quite frankly because God's word has one true meaning and one true revelation. Thus there is a proper and trustworthy way that it needs to be examined and that is to let God's word speak for, and answer itself. Men have been given the capacity to understand that and learn the interpretation of His word that God has given.

I believe that. But how does that align with the doctrines of Historicism that you follow? Can you truly listen to Christ in His Word and mammon too?

Take Daniel's 70 weeks. If we allow the word to speak for and interpret itself we see clearly that Daniel's 70th week is not set for future fulfillment but was fulfilled in Christ.

Actually, if we allow God's Word to interpret itself, we see clearly that the final "one week" of the 70 weeks Daniel has NOT been fulfilled yet. The Romans in 70 A.D. certainly did not fulfill it, for they weren't able to get inside the Jerusalem temple to setup an abomination of idol worship, which is what the "abomination of desolation" is about. And, we were already given a pattern for it with Antiochus Epiphanes before Christ's first coming. Antiochus did make it inside the Jerusalem temple, sacrificed swine upon the altar and spread its broth around inside the temple, and even setup an altar to Zeus. Those who treat the 70 weeks prophecy as fulfilled often omit the Dan.11 & 12 chapter events which are linked to the Dan.9:27 "one week". How does doing that show the ability to let God's Word interpret itself?

As a matter of fact I would! That temple in Jesus' day contained the same elements as the tabernacle in the wilderness. That tabernacle pointed to Christ. For goodness sake man Jesus even compared Himself to that temple.

Then you would be saying that the physical temple standing in Jerusalem at Christ's first coming was literally Jesus. That's not the temple our Lord was referring to there in John 2 was it? He was referring to His Body and His crucifixion and Resurrection which was to happen. That's why He contrasted the Temple of His Body that would be destroyed and raised again in three days, vs. the physical temple that could not. I mean really, get a clue!!

What I think you are doing is warning people as if building another temple matters somehow instead of warning Jews that it is unnecessary because the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world has been sacrificed. I think if you knew these things better you'd have no problem being able to speaks to Jews about Christ.

What do you mean; are you trying to say the Jews building another temple in Jerusalem matters to me JUST BECAUSE I WARN OTHERS ABOUT IT FROM PROPHECY? How could you come to such a crazy conclusion as that, unless YOU are the one trying to defend those Jews in doing that? I'm starting to think that you are actually in favour of their building another temple to start up sacrifices again. I'm aware there's some Christian groups in America that have been sending heifers for sacrifice to the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem, thinking that's a way to bring Christ's second coming in faster. You're not in one of those deceived groups are you?

And so telling others that a secular nation plans to build a temple that doesn't mean anything does what exactly? One thing I've noticed that I find quite disturbing is that fundamentalism in this country almost seems to encourage the building of this temple instead of preaching it means absolutely nothing. None of today's dispensationalist pastor's ever speak out against this proposed temple as meaning nothing. Why?

Wait a minute. Why would you say that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem building another temple doesn't mean anything for today? That's like saying 'turn your head, don't watch what's going on in Jerusalem, you don't need to know'. That temple for the end is about prophecy in the last days, the very prophecy Paul gave in 2 Thess.2 about a false one coming to sit in it, and set himself up as God. That's why... it's an important event for ALL Christians to note! But what you're saying is that people should remain blind to that event!! That's not what God's Word tells us to do; we're commanded by Christ to stay in Him 'watching'. Paul even gave more of the end time events in 1 Thess.5 when they shall say, "Peace and safety", and then "sudden destruction" comes upon them.

And you really think not telling people people, whether they be Jew or gentile, that the type of the temple that Christ represented in anti-type does what exactly? None of these fundamentalist churches make mention of this obvious Biblical fact and that should be a great concern to anyone that attends such a church.

You're simply rambling, not making any sense, because it sounds like you are against Christian Churches to me. Who do you make yourself out to be?

Bottom line Veteran is that dispensationalism is dangerous in its complacency and endorsement of the rebuilding of this temple. In short they are denying that Christ fulfilled all prophecy regarding the temple. Jesus is our temple now and we are individual stones in that temple. Any other teaching that denies this simple fact is fallacy and fantasy. God bless.

Bottomline to you, I AM NOT A DISPENSATIONALIST. I agree the doctrines of men called Dispensationalism are dangerous, likewise are the doctrines of men called Preterism, Historicism, and Futurism are all dangerous.

What you are denying are the very signs of the end our Lord gave us in His Word to be watching, particularlly the evidence of the building of another temple in Jerusalem for the "abomination of desolation" to take place just prior to Christ's second coming.

If my fellow brethren in Christ listened to you, they would miss what that event is about with a false messiah coming to proclaim himself as God, with the majority of the world bowing down to worship that false messiah in place of Christ (Rev.13; Matt.24; Mark 13; 2 Thess.2). THAT is a warning our Lord Jesus gave us in His Word. But, you don't care to heed that warning, but instead are busy telling others such an event means nothing.

But that's alright, the longer you keep wanting to argue against those written prophecies linking to the building of another temple in Jerusalem, the more opportunity it gives me to warn my fellow-Christian brethren about it.