Deja Vu

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Willie T

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The first four paragraphs of this kind of surprised me..... thus, the rest was quite interesting.

An eschatological theme that is as widely misunderstood as it is commonly discussed in popular prophetic literature is the "last days.” This factor of eschatological chronology is an important concept that requires a deep appreciation of the complexity of God's sovereign governance of history and the outworking of His redemptive purposes. Unfortunately, the idea of the last days is greatly abused by many.

In a popular work, the writer comments about those that were living among the "generation” (Matt. 24:34) of World War I: "There is no question that we are living in the last days. The fact that we are the generation that will be on the earth when our Lord comes certainly should not depress us."

The average Christian believes his is the very last times, that he is living in the shadow of the Second Coming. Consider some representative statements pointing in alarm to the imminence of the end in the "last days":
(1) The Antichrist "is now close at hand.”
(2) "The world is failing, passing away, and it witnesses to its ruin, not now by the age, but by the end of things.” Because of this the Christian should know
(3) that "still more terrible things are imminent.” Indeed,
(4) "Already the heavenly fire is giving birth, already the approach of divine punishment is manifest, already the doom of coming disaster is heralded.”
(5) Because of world circumstances the plea is: "Consider, I beg you, whether the age can bear this for long?”
(6) "All creation now waits in suspense for his arrival. The world, which must be transformed anew, is already pregnant with the end that is to come on the final day.” How often have we heard such cries of the end? Are not these the concerns of so many of the current crop of prophetic studies so wildly popular in our time?

I should confess to the reader, though, that I have not been entirely up front. All of the statements in the immediately preceding paragraph were made, not by contemporary prophetic writers, but by Christians living well over a thousand years ago. The following is a list of the sources:
Number (1) is from Tertullian (160-220), De Fuga 12.
Numbers (2) and (3) are from Cyprian (A.D. 195-258), De Mort 25.
Number (4) is from Firmicus Maternus (ca. A.D. 346), De Errore Profanarum Religion 25:3.
Number (5) is from Evodius of Uzala (ca. A.D. 412).
Number (6) is from Paulinus of Nola (A.D. 353-431). Too many have misunderstood the eschatology of Scripture and the function of the "last days” in eschatology — and that, for untold hundreds of years.

Properly understood the idea of the last days is focused on the most important episode of history: the life of Jesus Christ lived out in fulfillment of divine prophecy and of redemptive history. Christ is the focal point of all Scripture. He is anticipated in the Old Testament revelation and realized in the New: "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me” (John 5:39). As such He stands as history's dividing line — hence the historical appropriateness and theological significance of dividing history between B.C. and A.D.

There are many prophetic references looking forward to the "Messianic age of consummation” introduced by Christ. This era is frequently deemed "the last days” or "the latter days." "The expression then properly denoted the future times in general; but, as the coming of the Messiah was to the eye of a Jew the most important event in the coming ages, the great, glorious, and crowning scene in all that vast futurity, the phrase came to be regarded as properly expressive of that. It was a phrase in contrast with the days of the patriarchs, the kings, the prophets, etc. The last days, or the closing period of the world, were the days of the Messiah." His coming was "nothing less than the beginning of the great eschaton of history."

It is when Christ came that "the fullness of times” was realized: "The phrase pleroma tou chronou, Gal. iv. 4, implies an orderly unrolling of the preceding stages of world-history towards a fixed end." Hence, the preparatory preaching at the beginning of His ministry: "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15; Matthew 4:17). Prior to this, the Old Testament era was typological and anticipatory. The Old Testament era served as the "former days” (Mal. 3:4) that gave way to the "last days,” the times initiated by Christ's coming: "God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things” (Hebrews 1:1-2).

Thus, we find frequent references to the presence of the last days during the New Testament time. The last days are initiated by the appearance of the Son (Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20) to effect redemption (Hebrews 9:26) and by His pouring out of the Spirit (Acts 2:16, 17, 24; cf. Isa. 32:15; Zech. 12:10). The "ends of the ages” comes during the apostolic era (1 Cor. 10:11). These will run until "the last day,” when the resurrection/judgment occurs to end history (John 6:39; 11:24; 12:48). But before the final end point is reached, perilous times will punctuate the era of the end (2 Timothy 3:1) and mockers will arise (2 Peter 3:3).

The last days of Old Testament prophecy anticipated the establishment of Mount Zion/Jerusalem as the enduring spiritual and cultural influence through the era. This came in the first century with the establishment of the New Covenant phase of the Church, the focal point of the kingdom of Christ (cf. Joel 2 with Acts 2:16ff; Hebrews 12:18-27).

Because the last days have been with us since the first-century coming of Christ, there are no days to follow. There is no millennium that will introduce another grand redemptive era in man's history (see discussion of "Millennium” below). With the coming of Christ, earth history reached "epochal finality." The idea of the appearance of Christ as the "Last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45) is indicative that there is no different historical age to follow. The finality has come, though it has undergone continuous development since its arrival in the ministry of Christ.

It is primarily in the dispensational literature of the millennial discussion that reference to the "last days” generates erroneous conclusions. Dispensationalists point to contemporary international social decline as indicative of the onset of the "last days": "The key that would unlock the prophetic book would be the current events that would begin to fit into the predicted pattern." "The conflicts that we see in our world today are symptoms of the day in which we live. They may be symptoms of the last days." Such observations overlook the biblical function of the "last days” in regard to the grand sweep of redemptive history. The "last days” of postmillennialism comprise the great era of redemptive history that gradually will issue forth in historical victory for the Church of Jesus Christ; the "last days” of dispensationalism introduce the collapsing of culture as the Great Tribulation looms (after which will follow the discontinuous personal reign of Christ on earth).
 
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VictoryinJesus

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The first four paragraphs of this kind of surprised me..... thus, the rest was quite interesting.

An eschatological theme that is as widely misunderstood as it is commonly discussed in popular prophetic literature is the "last days.” This factor of eschatological chronology is an important concept that requires a deep appreciation of the complexity of God's sovereign governance of history and the outworking of His redemptive purposes. Unfortunately, the idea of the last days is greatly abused by many.

In a popular work, the writer comments about those that were living among the "generation” (Matt. 24:34) of World War I: "There is no question that we are living in the last days. The fact that we are the generation that will be on the earth when our Lord comes certainly should not depress us."

The average Christian believes his is the very last times, that he is living in the shadow of the Second Coming. Consider some representative statements pointing in alarm to the imminence of the end in the "last days":
(1) The Antichrist "is now close at hand.”
(2) "The world is failing, passing away, and it witnesses to its ruin, not now by the age, but by the end of things.” Because of this the Christian should know
(3) that "still more terrible things are imminent.” Indeed,
(4) "Already the heavenly fire is giving birth, already the approach of divine punishment is manifest, already the doom of coming disaster is heralded.”
(5) Because of world circumstances the plea is: "Consider, I beg you, whether the age can bear this for long?”
(6) "All creation now waits in suspense for his arrival. The world, which must be transformed anew, is already pregnant with the end that is to come on the final day.” How often have we heard such cries of the end? Are not these the concerns of so many of the current crop of prophetic studies so wildly popular in our time?

I should confess to the reader, though, that I have not been entirely up front. All of the statements in the immediately preceding paragraph were made, not by contemporary prophetic writers, but by Christians living well over a thousand years ago. The following is a list of the sources:
Number (1) is from Tertullian (160-220), De Fuga 12.
Numbers (2) and (3) are from Cyprian (A.D. 195-258), De Mort 25.
Number (4) is from Firmicus Maternus (ca. A.D. 346), De Errore Profanarum Religion 25:3.
Number (5) is from Evodius of Uzala (ca. A.D. 412).
Number (6) is from Paulinus of Nola (A.D. 353-431). Too many have misunderstood the eschatology of Scripture and the function of the "last days” in eschatology — and that, for untold hundreds of years.

Properly understood the idea of the last days is focused on the most important episode of history: the life of Jesus Christ lived out in fulfillment of divine prophecy and of redemptive history. Christ is the focal point of all Scripture. He is anticipated in the Old Testament revelation and realized in the New: "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me” (John 5:39). As such He stands as history's dividing line — hence the historical appropriateness and theological significance of dividing history between B.C. and A.D.

There are many prophetic references looking forward to the "Messianic age of consummation” introduced by Christ. This era is frequently deemed "the last days” or "the latter days." "The expression then properly denoted the future times in general; but, as the coming of the Messiah was to the eye of a Jew the most important event in the coming ages, the great, glorious, and crowning scene in all that vast futurity, the phrase came to be regarded as properly expressive of that. It was a phrase in contrast with the days of the patriarchs, the kings, the prophets, etc. The last days, or the closing period of the world, were the days of the Messiah." His coming was "nothing less than the beginning of the great eschaton of history."

It is when Christ came that "the fullness of times” was realized: "The phrase pleroma tou chronou, Gal. iv. 4, implies an orderly unrolling of the preceding stages of world-history towards a fixed end." Hence, the preparatory preaching at the beginning of His ministry: "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15; Matthew 4:17). Prior to this, the Old Testament era was typological and anticipatory. The Old Testament era served as the "former days” (Mal. 3:4) that gave way to the "last days,” the times initiated by Christ's coming: "God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things” (Hebrews 1:1-2).

Thus, we find frequent references to the presence of the last days during the New Testament time. The last days are initiated by the appearance of the Son (Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20) to effect redemption (Hebrews 9:26) and by His pouring out of the Spirit (Acts 2:16, 17, 24; cf. Isa. 32:15; Zech. 12:10). The "ends of the ages” comes during the apostolic era (1 Cor. 10:11). These will run until "the last day,” when the resurrection/judgment occurs to end history (John 6:39; 11:24; 12:48). But before the final end point is reached, perilous times will punctuate the era of the end (2 Timothy 3:1) and mockers will arise (2 Peter 3:3).

The last days of Old Testament prophecy anticipated the establishment of Mount Zion/Jerusalem as the enduring spiritual and cultural influence through the era. This came in the first century with the establishment of the New Covenant phase of the Church, the focal point of the kingdom of Christ (cf. Joel 2 with Acts 2:16ff; Hebrews 12:18-27).

Because the last days have been with us since the first-century coming of Christ, there are no days to follow. There is no millennium that will introduce another grand redemptive era in man's history (see discussion of "Millennium” below). With the coming of Christ, earth history reached "epochal finality." The idea of the appearance of Christ as the "Last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45) is indicative that there is no different historical age to follow. The finality has come, though it has undergone continuous development since its arrival in the ministry of Christ.

It is primarily in the dispensational literature of the millennial discussion that reference to the "last days” generates erroneous conclusions. Dispensationalists point to contemporary international social decline as indicative of the onset of the "last days": "The key that would unlock the prophetic book would be the current events that would begin to fit into the predicted pattern." "The conflicts that we see in our world today are symptoms of the day in which we live. They may be symptoms of the last days." Such observations overlook the biblical function of the "last days” in regard to the grand sweep of redemptive history. The "last days” of postmillennialism comprise the great era of redemptive history that gradually will issue forth in historical victory for the Church of Jesus Christ; the "last days” of dispensationalism introduce the collapsing of culture as the Great Tribulation looms (after which will follow the discontinuous personal reign of Christ on earth).

I can’t say I fully understood it enough to agree with all of it. It will be interesting to read what others have to say on the topic.
 
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Helen

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None of us here really do, either. I think most people just enjoy sounding like they do.

Haha!! Good one...and true of most of us!! I had to read it twice...it takes me a while.
Interesting, but I'm not smart enough to comment too much. :D
 

Naomi25

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Well now you guys have spoiled any comment anyone could make, because we might sound full of ourselves!! So...consider this comment nothing more than a "musing" on the article, or book passage...'cause let's face it, that's what it is!

I think it's focusing in on the fact that the NT does, indeed stress that the moment Christ ascended back into heaven and sent the HS at Pentecost, the "last days" had come. Peter mentions it in his Pentecost speech, Hebrews says it outright, and Peter implies it through the blatant nature of human nature we see everywhere. So it's no surprise that every generation has seen signs of these last days!
As far the the Millennium goes...yes. I tend to agree. I see the bible speaking in terms of specific era's. You have, as it says, the former things, and the latter days. But you also have 'this age' and 'the age to come'. And always, always, when it speaks of 'the age to come' it is talking of things eternal. The new heavens and new earth. So...within this Age and this life, we are looking at the former things...before Christ, and these last days...after Christ. And then he will return and usher in the Age to come. The millennium is now, basically. There is no real argument against it, for we already know that Jesus is seated on the throne ruling and reigning. We already know he told the Pharisees that his kingdom was not of this earth. And we know that he "must rule until he defeats the last enemy, which is death". And that happens when? At his return. So when he returns, the Millennium is wrapped up, death is defeated and the new Age beginnings. *that's my story and I'm sticking to it!!*

The interesting factor of the article (I think), and where the debate becomes real, is the nature of the world before Christ's return. Postmillennialist would have it that Christian morals hold sway until there is another great revival...a golden age upon the earth, of sorts. Then Jesus comes back. Dispensationalists would say that things get worse, then he comes back.
I'd have to say that while I hold an Amil view, which puts me more in the Postmil camp as far as the timing of the millennium goes, I see more biblical and, well, practical evidence for the more pessimistic view. And I think that's why almost every generation has thought they will see the end...because they too have seen that in scripture. Yes, the Church will grow, but it will grow alongside apostasy and evil. The bible warns of this so often, of this crescendo, that I do not think we can avoid it. And as each generation goes by, it seems to get worse. That's why each generation is convinced it must be time, it cannot get any worse! But alas, it can. And only God will know at what point he will call a halt on the inevitable slide of humanity and crack open the sky and defeat death. Can't wait!!
 

Willie T

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Haha!! Good one...and true of most of us!! I had to read it twice...it takes me a while.
Interesting, but I'm not smart enough to comment too much. :D
Well, I apologize for posting such a flood of words. I really do try to avoid that kind of rather useless clutter, (I like one single, simple point at a time) but I really mainly tried to concentrate on just the irony of who actually wrote those first dates.
 
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Helen

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God post @Naomi25

Do you believe/think that-..... quote:- < Yes, the Church will grow, but it will grow alongside apostasy and evil. >
.....That "the Church that will grow"...is the same church that is seen at the moment be the world ...to be 'the church'.?
 

Willie T

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God post @Naomi25

Do you believe/think that-..... quote:- < Yes, the Church will grow, but it will grow alongside apostasy and evil. >
.....That "the Church that will grow"...is the same church that is seen at the moment be the world ...to be 'the church'.?
I think that just like even the Apostles had given up, and believed that after He was crucified, Jesus was dead and gone... defeated.... and it was all over... that Satan had won... we Christian today also have let the same mindset come over us. Most of us feel that the church, culturally and in "time", is doomed for defeat, and that Satan has won and rules the earth. Most Christians honestly seem to believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are now impotent and powerless.... with no way to reach anyone more, but only to come back and kick butt, riding on a white horse, killing unbelievers, right and left with a sword.

I happen to believe the Great Commission Jesus gave to us is still in effect, and that His promise to Abraham about his (Abe's) children numbering like the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on the beaches is still true and going to come to pass.
 
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Helen

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@Willie T @Naomi25

I find I have no confidence at all in the visible church system that we can see.

When Elijah in self righteousness , says to God,
..." I, even I only, am left; "
God mentioned to Elijah his true hidden church :-
1 kings 19:18 "Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." That was the true Church which had not yet come into it's own."

My own personal opinion...is that the "so called" worship in many many churches and much of the 'preaching' to ..is "strange fire" and these have and do, "kiss Baal"...
I cannot relate to the "Hollywood style" church performance in this day and age.

So, I believe the true Church is awaiting with open ear, the trumpet sound, calling them that.... "now is the time".

But, this is just what I believe. ;)
 
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Helen

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Whoops, ....sorry if mine is off topic!!! Just ignore. :)
 

Naomi25

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God post @Naomi25

Do you believe/think that-..... quote:- < Yes, the Church will grow, but it will grow alongside apostasy and evil. >
.....That "the Church that will grow"...is the same church that is seen at the moment be the world ...to be 'the church'.?

Well...I'm not real sure exactly what you mean here, sorry. There gets to be a bit of confusion when throwing around the term "church" because we use it almost corporately, whereas in reality is should only refer to those within the body...actual believers. And we know that quite often people who 'attend church' are not true believers. And that, I believe, is where the "apostasty" will come in. I think the bible teachers assurance of salvation, so, true Christians will never fall away from their faith. But it will appear like the 'church' is hemorrhaging people.
And we see that even today, especially considering the liberalist agenda and the growing push for inclusivity within the churches. More people insist that Christianity needs to embrace ecumenicism, homosexuality, transgenderism, Universalism...you name it, we must accept it. And the more a church refuses to, the more people leave it. The more "liberal" a service some have, they seem to attract bigger crowds....but are they part of the "true Church"?
I doubt it. The more 'church' is about self-seeking, self-excusing, self-accepting...the more they seem to leave Jesus out. And when that happens, all sorts of evil creeps in.

But having said all that, of course the true Church will remain true! Just because we are seeing a slump in our society at the moment does not mean other parts of the world are not seeing tremendous revival! As the population grows, so too does both those who will be saved, and those who will not be. Do we see this as pessimistic? No...I don't think so. The bible paints it as realistic...not everyone will be saved.
 

Naomi25

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I think that just like even the Apostles had given up, and believed that after He was crucified, Jesus was dead and gone... defeated.... and it was all over... that Satan had won... we Christian today also have let the same mindset come over us. Most of us feel that the church, culturally and in "time", is doomed for defeat, and that Satan has won and rules the earth. Most Christians honestly seem to believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are now impotent and powerless.... with no way to reach anyone more, but only to come back and kick butt, riding on a white horse, killing unbelievers, right and left with a sword.

I happen to believe the Great Commission Jesus gave to us is still in effect, and that His promise to Abraham about his (Abe's) children numbering like the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on the beaches is still true and going to come to pass.

Really? I don't feel this at all! To see things this way I'd have to believe that God is not sovereign. As it is, I believe he is on his throne, Christ beside him, having triumphed. So...with that understanding, it changes how you look at the current SNAFU. Things are exactly how God wants them. And every single soul he wants won, will be. He is not dismayed by the political or religious season. He is not looking for plan B. And regardless if things get better before he comes, or worse, those facts won't change. He's the boss!
 
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Willie T

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I think one of the biggest deceptions we labor beneath is the mistaken assumption that all those "Revelation & Daniel & Ezekiel" things we speak of as "going to happen" did not already begin (and have continued) for thousands of years. It actually lulls us into thinking that what we call "church "is what God wanted for us back in our grandparent's time, and is not falling away.
 
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Naomi25

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Yes, I agree completely. Although...could you perhaps flesh out that last sentence a bit more? I'm not sure I've got a handle on what you mean...
 

Willie T

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Yes, I agree completely. Although...could you perhaps flesh out that last sentence a bit more? I'm not sure I've got a handle on what you mean...
I was saying that we embrace as "God-ordained", a multitude of traditions and doctrines that our own grandparents introduced into their worship........ things that are just as foreign to God's true will as many of the rules and "laws" the Pharisees came up with. And we are still perpetuating a lot of them.... causing us to probably really move farther away from God's will, rather than toward it.
 

Willie T

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We just saw this gal in concert Friday, and she hints here about just a few of those things that we actually DO come to believe are somehow how God expects up to behave.

 
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Naomi25

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Well, yes, I suppose in a way this is true. My Grandparents were quite conservative and had traditions that were perhaps not strictly essential in biblical terms. And in a lot of ways I do agree that many people took that too far and took those traditions as law when they shouldn't have been, which probably alienated many people from the Church.
However, I think we can to quickly dismiss those "old ways" as traditional and uptight. And I'll give two reasons why. First...the state of the Church and the world right now. The loss of holding on to tradition seems to have been the open door for liberalism to gallop in. And two...a lot of those traditions came through the years and years of history, experience and wisdom of the Church Fathers. It is foolish to just dismiss all that into the category of unnecessary rules and regulations.
The bible is actually clear that within the Church there needs to be moral integrity and accountability within the leadership. And people being people (even saved people), that will mean some rules and regulations will need to be implemented. Granted, the Church is able to use Spirit guided wisdom and conscience on an ongoing basis, hopefully with the understanding that souls are more important than rules. But still...there needs to be some sort of biblical baseline under girding the Churches decisions and actions.
I just find it too much of a coincidence that just as we move into a time when we start to do "church" in a much more 'open', less restrictive way, that the liberals come tearing in and start slamming all our walls down. How long after that can we even call many of them 'churches'?
 

Willie T

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To some extent, I agree with you. In fact, I am probably much more strict than 99% of the people here because I really do believe the Christian Reconstructionists (Dominionism, Theonomy, etc.) have a lot of the right beliefs in saying we would not be in this mess if we let God's laws guide our lives. I just can't follow them due to their Calvinism, and a few other things that I see as misguided.
 

Naomi25

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Well...you know what they say. Even Calvin wouldn't have agreed with 'Calvinism'. :p
 
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