Derision

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aspen

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Did Jesus teach us to use derision as a tool to witness? It seems to me that baiting others to challenge the truth we are trying to promote fosters pride rather than sowing love, yet I see it all over the Internet (to be fair, this site has really improved and I recognize my negative role in past conversations here).

It is a difficult issue because our culture is built on the dialectic - in order to introduce information we are taught to point out what we believe to be wrong about the status quo. Unfortunately, this method can result in ignoring similarities and blowing differences out of proportion. I remember having a difficult time listening to sermons because I thought it was my job to root out all heresy, mistakes, and molehills spoken from the pulpit - Hell was a jot and tittle away, after all.

So, are we called to use mockery in our witness? Bait others to promote the Kingdom? Hell is scary - does it call for and ends justify the means approach?
 

Windmillcharge

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Jesus used scorn and derision on those who rejected his message.
For us we need to use these very sparingly. We are not in the buisness of winning arguments or scoring points, but of presenting Jesus as Saviour to a lost people.
 
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DPMartin

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if my memory serves, Ezekiel was instructed by the Lord his God to build model armies and lay on one side for a certain amount of time (days I believe) and then the other side, and he had to eat while doing that, a mix of dung and something else, outside the walls of Jerusalem.

try that on for size in getting out the message.

some stand on street corners today in busy cities shouting salvation in Christ to the same people, day in day out going to and from work. there's a man who sleeps at the door steps of holy places in Jerusalem that everyone who lives there calls the Jesus man, note they call him Jesus man, he doesn't proclaim himself Jesus man. shocking the audience to get their attention works. making them angry makes them think about what you said even if its contentious. feel goods are an expectation of one feel good to the next feel good but anger sticks. don't matter, those who love the truth are not offended by the truth no matter how its delivered. if you're hungry to near starving, you don't care how the food gets to you, do you? push come to shove you would eat out of a dumpster.


Jesus would go into synagogues with the full intention of offending the leadership. or heal on the Sabbath. some towns wanted to stone Him or one town wanted to throw Him off a cliff. so it don't really matter. the power of God to do what He did wasn't a warm and fuzzy, it was proof that God was with Him, and approved of Him.

if you can't eat what God has Judged as good for you, because the ambiance isn't to your liking, then maybe you should be denied the benefits thereof. pampering is not a part of the ministry of grace. even though most self proclaimed Christians insist on being pampered.
 
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GodsGrace

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Did Jesus teach us to use derision as a tool to witness? It seems to me that baiting others to challenge the truth we are trying to promote fosters pride rather than sowing love, yet I see it all over the Internet (to be fair, this site has really improved and I recognize my negative role in past conversations here).

It is a difficult issue because our culture is built on the dialectic - in order to introduce information we are taught to point out what we believe to be wrong about the status quo. Unfortunately, this method can result in ignoring similarities and blowing differences out of proportion. I remember having a difficult time listening to sermons because I thought it was my job to root out all heresy, mistakes, and molehills spoken from the pulpit - Hell was a jot and tittle away, after all.

So, are we called to use mockery in our witness? Bait others to promote the Kingdom? Hell is scary - does it call for and ends justify the means approach?
I agree with all you've said.
But I plead guilty but only for one poster on this board.
 

aspen

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I agree with all you've said.
But I plead guilty but only for one poster on this board.

We’ve all been guilty of it, but do you believe it is an effective method of witnessing?
 

mjrhealth

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We’ve all been guilty of it, but do you believe it is an effective method of witnessing?
When one is speaking under the Holy Spirit, that is enough to make People hate you, teh truth offends many, and as stated, many would rather be pampered than hear the truth, that itchy ear thing, running after men and churches that tell you what you want to hear.
 
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aspen

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When one is speaking under the Holy Spirit, that is enough to make People hate you, teh truth offends many, and as stated, many would rather be pampered than hear the truth, that itchy ear thing, running after men and churches that tell you what you want to hear.

Unfortunately, ‘the truth offends’ is a BIG tent, which holds a lot more than truth
 
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ScottA

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We’ve all been guilty of it, but do you believe it is an effective method of witnessing?
This seems to be the bottom line idea...so perhaps I will jump in here.

I would say, No. But only because you qualify the question as it pertains to "witnessing." Which is an interesting point, but I would say there is more to it. I mean, as you point out, it is so prevalent that there actually, absolutely, positively must be more to it. An actual reason I should think. And because "witnessing" is the order of the day - the commission, while "love" is the commandment...it is indeed a strange and ironic mix.

I can only conclude, that there is an intentional component of the witness of these days, that is to come through...chaos, confusion, and conflict. How strange indeed! It is as if God has set the stage for the gentiles by painting a picture of spiritual war in the heavens, before which their/our vision of God and the world is equally crazy in appearance. Like finding a foothold in a dust storm, we are forced to make certain basic choices...like where we choose to take refuge when everything appears to be failing. Hmmm...I like it! I mean, I hate it!

Otherwise, we have no choice but to believe that it is all a manifestation of what is on high - simply revealing the chaos within...because that's who we are.
 

aspen

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This seems to be the bottom line idea...so perhaps I will jump in here.

I would say, No. But only because you qualify the question as it pertains to "witnessing." Which is an interesting point, but I would say there is more to it. I mean, as you point out, it is so prevalent that there actually, absolutely, positively must be more to it. An actual reason I should think. And because "witnessing" is the order of the day - the commission, while "love" is the commandment...it is indeed a strange and ironic mix.

I can only conclude, that there is an intentional component of the witness of these days, that is to come through...chaos, confusion, and conflict. How strange indeed! It is as if God has set the stage for the gentiles by painting a picture of spiritual war in the heavens, before which their/our vision of God and the world is equally crazy in appearance. Like finding a foothold in a dust storm, we are forced to make certain basic choices...like where we choose to take refuge when everything appears to be failing. Hmmm...I like it! I mean, I hate it!

Otherwise, we have no choice but to believe that it is all a manifestation of what is on high - simply revealing the chaos within...because that's who we are.

Scott, i am speechless
 

GodsGrace

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We’ve all been guilty of it, but do you believe it is an effective method of witnessing?
I don't witness on this board.
I assume I'm speaking to persons who do not need witnessing.
In ALL cases persons should speak with love, especially when attempting to defend their denomination.
 
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GodsGrace

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When one is speaking under the Holy Spirit, that is enough to make People hate you, teh truth offends many, and as stated, many would rather be pampered than hear the truth, that itchy ear thing, running after men and churches that tell you what you want to hear.
After you've offended someone, they don't listen anymore...
Witnessing should not include offending.
 

mjrhealth

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After you've offended someone, they don't listen anymore...
Witnessing should not include offending.
Jesus never went out to offend anyone, yet many where offended,, the truth will always offend those who do not want it. Jesus did not stop preaching simply because people will get offended, but thats what people do, water down the truth for those with itchy ears , does no one any good.And its usually teh religious who hate it teh most.
 

GodsGrace

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Jesus never went out to offend anyone, yet many where offended,, the truth will always offend those who do not want it. Jesus did not stop preaching simply because people will get offended, but thats what people do, water down the truth for those with itchy ears , does no one any good.And its usually teh religious who hate it teh most.
mj
You don't feed a baby meat.
You start off with milk.
Work your way up to fruit,
then meat - eventually.

If they're no longer listening to you...
It stops there !

We're not Jesus. He had so much charisma -- we don't.

One plants, one waters...
we don't all get to see the growth.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I had never heard the word derision and had to look up its meaning: contemptuous ridicule or mockery. The word "derision" in comparing it to the gospel, is offensive. We assume when Jesus Christ spoke truth that offended that he was being sarcastic. That is not the Jesus I know. (Luke 18: 22-23) "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich." Is not "derision"...it is love.

John 8:44-47 is not "derision" ...it is love.
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. [45] And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. [46] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? [47] He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

The truth is offensive. The gospel is offensive because it is truth. Jesus was offensive because he spoke truth. Paul was offensive and it landed him in a hole in the ground saying "rejoice in the Lord always."

God is offensive because God is truth.
The world hates the truth, so they hate us.

John 3:20-21
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The trouble is we think we know better than what the gospel teaches which is truth, so we CALL it mockery and sarcastic and not love. We do not even know what love means yet we make ourselves the judge of what is love and what love is not. God's definition of love is different than the worlds. If you don't believe it, just look toward the crucifixion. Many find it offensive. 1 Corinthians 13:6 "Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;"

John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

If you loved me...
Love in not participating in the delusion of man to keep the peace. Keeping peace among all men(if possible) is not participating in their delusion to keep peace, but to speak truth so they may have real peace. John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." The only peace (rest) can be found outside of a lie. Love is not contributing to someone remaining underneath a lie. When Stephen spoke: "howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands" which was the truth they needed to hear (especially Saul)... the truth was offensive. Stephen did not use "derision". Stephen used love. The word gives the message to overcome evil with love. Deception is evil.

Galatians 4:16
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

Anyone that says the gospel is not offensive...is a liar. They don't know the gospel. They live under a false definition of "love" and pacify their image among men in hopes they do not have to suffer rejection for the gospels sake. Matthew 13: 21 "Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
 
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bbyrd009

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When one is speaking under the Holy Spirit, that is enough to make People hate you, teh truth offends many, and as stated, many would rather be pampered than hear the truth, that itchy ear thing, running after men and churches that tell you what you want to hear.
ya, like "you don't have to keep the law."
 

mjrhealth

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One plants, one waters...
we don't all get to see the growth.
Amen.

Do you know how God teaches, He gives you a little revelation on something, when you understand that than He moves on to bigger things, sometimes you may get stuck at something for years, but untill you understand that, He wont go further, like a Jigsaw, or as teh bible puts it ,precept upon precept line upon line, for us it can take years to even understand teh simple things in God. God is in no rush, we can only show them. it is up to them to accept or reject, you can lead a horse to water....
 

GodsGrace

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Amen.

Do you know how God teaches, He gives you a little revelation on something, when you understand that than He moves on to bigger things, sometimes you may get stuck at something for years, but untill you understand that, He wont go further, like a Jigsaw, or as teh bible puts it ,precept upon precept line upon line, for us it can take years to even understand teh simple things in God. God is in no rush, we can only show them. it is up to them to accept or reject, you can lead a horse to water....
Exactly how I feel about it.
In small bits it becomes more palatable.
Anything we can be permitted to say is better than nothing at all.
 

GodsGrace

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that a "witness" is even needed at times implies that whatever the witness is proclaiming will offend the other party, the enemy so to speak. We have just let the wolves define "witness" for us here
About 3 years ago the daughter of a friend was visiting us. About 30 yrs old at the time. Atheist.
I started to tell her something about God. Nothing "invasive" -- I referred to myself.

She told me she didn't want to hear about it and to stop talking about it. It scared me, to tell you the truth. I stopped. It would have only done more harm to continue. I just kept thanking God for everything..this is always good. Just mention the name God or Jesus.
 
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