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Deu 18 was talk about Jesus, is it ?

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by Ricky W, Dec 14, 2007.

  1. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim
    Deu 18:15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;Also Deu 18:18I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
    Dear all Christians, i would like to ask you regarding on those verses in Deuteronomy 18:15-18, is it those verses was talking about Jesus(pbuh) or not ?I already trying to ask this question to someone, but seems like he/she doesn't want to talk about it. So if there is anyone here, Christian especially, or any one who want to join in this conversation (hope not going to debate), please give some comment on it, or is there any one who has different viewing let's talk about it.Best regards,Ricky WisnadriWallaahu a'lam.
     
  2. simpleword

    simpleword New Member

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    Deuteronomy 18:15,The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Acts 3:22,For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.Deuteronomy 18:18,I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.John 8:29,And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.Ricky a good thing to know also is,John 6:38,For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.Ricky be sure that you speak the true Word of God,for also,Luke 10:16,He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
     
  3. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(simpleword5)
    Deuteronomy 18:15,The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Acts 3:22,For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.Deuteronomy 18:18,I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.John 8:29,And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.Ricky a good thing to know also is,John 6:38,For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.Ricky be sure that you speak the true Word of God,for also,Luke 10:16,He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
    So the conclusion according to your viewing is, that the verse that i've shown above was indeed talking about Jesus(pbuh), correct ? If this correct, then i save your opinion in my box for a while [​IMG].Is there any opinion, or perhaps others viewing ?I hope you all not hesitate to talk about it with me.Wallaahu a'lam.
     
  4. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimWell since no one else who want to participate with this thread, i assume all was agree with what has been said by simpleword [​IMG].Simpleword has his view by bringing verse of Acts 3 that shown below :Acts 3:3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 3:22,For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.Respons :(*) I don't know why you bringing this verse, but if i'm take a look to the previous verse, it's indicate that after Jesus (pbuh) go to the 'heaven' God will raise up prophet of their brethren not brother. This is what other thing that make me confuse, if still among Jews, why then must using word brethren instead of brother ?Simpleword has also giving this verse regarding on his view :John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. Respons :Correct me if i'm wrong, but from what i'm seeing from those verses with Deuteronomy 18:18 it seems not precisely what Deuteronomy 18:18 has written.Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.In here we can clearly seeing that, God will put His Word unto the prophet, then the prophet shall speak what God has given to the prophet.Meanwhile the verses that you are brought was not like the way it's described.John 16:16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. In verse John 16:12 Jesus(pbuh) was not telling all things that God has given him, meanwhile Deuteronomy 18:18 said, the prophet shall speak all.16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.And if we read at John 16, it's indicate that Jesus was not the prophet that Deuteronomy 18 meant. But the one who Jesus (pbuh) talking to is the one who should be full filled Deuteronomy 18.simpleword said :Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. response :If others God prophets saying like the way Jesus(pbuh) said, is it will have a different result ?Now regarding on Deuteronomy 18, i have something interesting, that might pointed to whom does the prophet mean.Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,So, is it about Jesus ?Wallahu a'lam.
     
  5. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    Acts 3:3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 3:22,For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.Respons :(*) I don't know why you bringing this verse, but if i'm take a look to the previous verse, it's indicate that after Jesus (pbuh) go to the 'heaven' God will raise up prophet of their brethren not brother. This is what other thing that make me confuse, if still among Jews, why then must using word brethren instead of brother ?
    In A cts 3 they are showing you that Christ is the prophet spoken about Deuteronom 18 and he is repeating the scripture to support who Christ was.He is not saying another prophet is to come but that Christ is going to return.. This was the way they spoke about scripture at the time because Jews learnt it by heart so all would know where he was referring to.The verses show Christ is the one whom God spoke through. So clearly the verses come into context because of the content of the scripture and what Christ spoke. God speaking through Christ.You need to widen your knowledge of scripture to understand the teaching. The Spirit is Gods power on earth in men. All prophets have spoken by the power of the Spirit and have written their books. Christ cast out demons by the power of the Spirit. You need to read the fact and teaching about Christ baptising with the Holy Spirit.Moses spoke Deuteronomy 18 so was not speaking about himself. From amongst there own brethren meant the children and descendants of Isaac and so no prophet from any other child of Abraham could count as the one Moses spoke about.:naughty:
     
  6. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Faithful)
    In Acts 3 they are showing you that Christ is the prophet spoken about Deuteronom 18 and he is repeating the scripture to support who Christ was.He is not saying another prophet is to come but that Christ is going to return.. This was the way they spoke about scripture at the time because Jews learnt it by heart so all would know where he was referring to.
    Your possibilities it might be logic as well, yes that could be one of the possibilities that might what it is. However if we saw what Jesus has said in John, it would be more clearly state, that the prophet was not Jesus(pbuh).Let us see what i meant by seeing these verses below :John 16:16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.This verse clearly state Jesus(pbuh) was not the prophet that Deuteronomy 18 has said, why ? If we see the language structure that Jesus(pbuh) has said, he using word he instead of I. Which is from we can tell that the prophet was male, but not Jesus (pbuh).16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.This verse give us more better view that the prophet was not Jesus(pbuh) himself.
    The verses show Christ is the one whom God spoke through. So clearly the verses come into context because of the content of the scripture and what Christ spoke. God speaking through Christ.
    simpleword said :Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.response :If others God prophets saying like the way Jesus(pbuh) said, is it will have a different result ?
    You need to widen your knowledge of scripture to understand the teaching.
    Ok, i'll try my best to do that, but are you willing to do the same ? Can you do too, to others viewing either ?
    The Spirit is Gods power on earth in men. All prophets have spoken by the power of the Spirit and have written their books. Christ cast out demons by the power of the Spirit. You need to read the fact and teaching about Christ baptising with the Holy Spirit.
    I do apologize for your statement above, but i don't see any of the connection between what i've been asked.
    Moses spoke Deuteronomy 18 so was not speaking about himself.
    And who is the one who said, that he was ?
    From amongst there own brethren meant the children and descendants of Isaac and so no prophet from any other child of Abraham could count as the one Moses spoke about.:naughty:
    Are you trying to loss the fact that Ishmael was brethren to Isaac ?Again, instead of using word brother why using word brethren ?Now let us see what the bible has said regarding on your own though rather then God's Word it self, shall we [​IMG] ?Deuteronomy 18:15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;Deuteronomy 18:18I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee(Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.God has speak unto Moses(pbuh) that the prophet was like moses and among their brethren.Now im' asking you if you willing to answer. Who is their ? and who is their brethren ?Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,Now to get more clearly and closely, let us read Deuteronomy 34:10 above, it says the prophet who was like unto Moses(pbuh) wouldn't arise from Israel.Now i'm asking you, who can be that might ? Is it Jesus(pbuh) ?Well faithful i don't know how to say this, but It seems like God (*verse Deuteronomy 34:10) has denying your argument.Wallaahu a'lam.
     
  7. Tyrel

    Tyrel New Member

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    Hurra, this is one of those topics I love to discuss.Deuteronomy 18:15-22 is an interesting passage in the Torah, and indeed speaks about Messiah. Let me share with you how we know this to be true.First, the context is important, so let's absorb it. This profession and revelation comes through Moses to the people of Israel, right after Horeb. What was Horeb all about?The Torah hold account of these things faithfully."Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children." ~Deuteronomy 4:10What Horeb was, was God wishing to speak to the Jews directly, and not through Moses and Aaron. They were given laws to prepare themselves for such a holy communion. Here, God made a Covenant with them as his people, and showed himself in magnificence to them."Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today." ~Deuteronomy 5:1-3 God presented himself manifest to them in a great fire. However, there was no cause of idolatry;"You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman," ~Deuteronomy 4:15-16So, at Horeb, God presented himself to them. He meant to give them a lasting ordinance. It was never to be forgotten, and to be taught from one generation to another, as a great sign and a mercy to mankind."Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them. Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when he said to me, "Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children." You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness." ~Deuteronomy 4:9-11At Horeb, God appeared in a great fire reaching up to the heavens, and he spoke his words to them directly.With that in mind, let's observe the passage you mean for us to observe."The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die." The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." ~Deuteronomy 18:15-19The people of Israel were not able to stand in the presence of almighty God. However, they said "let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God, nor see his great fire anymore, or we will surely die." This was a good thing, they recognized that God was Holy above all, and to stand in his presence was impossible, for we are not holy. God doesn't reply with disappointment though. As though it was all part of a greater plan, he says "what they say is good, instead of a burning fire, I shall raise up for them a prophet like yourself {moses}, and in his mouth will be found my words directly."This prophet was not an average prophet, as the Jews Recognized. They were to expect somebody very grand. The revelation tells us another interesting thing as well. "From among your brothers". Now, this particular phrase, regardless of translation, is found throughout the Torah. However, to my knowledge, there is not a single instance where it refers to anything other than another Jewish Tribe. This Prophesy was stating that God was going to send the promised prophet to Israel. The Prophesy about the Annointed one is made more specific in Genesis 49:8-14."Judah, your brothers will praise you; your hand will be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons will bow down to you. You are a lion's cub, O Judah; you return from the prey, my son. Like a lion he crouches and lies down, like a lioness—who dares to rouse him? The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his. He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. His eyes will be darker than wine, his teeth whiter than milk. "This passage is jam packed with prophetic meaning Galore. I could go on for hours about only this section. I won't, but I'll provide some passages to look up and compare if you're interested. {Psalm 2, Zechariah 9:9-13, Psalm 72}In context, the revelation here concerns the Tribes of Israel, and their inheritance. Here, Judah is the tribe whose inheritance and status is described above. However, it very clearly was understood to carry great prophetic significance to other Biblical authors. This passage tells us that the Messiah would be of the Tribe of Judah. Indeed, in the New Testament, in the book of Revelation, he is accorded with the title "The lion of the tribe of Judah" {Revelation 5:5}.So, a Christian understanding of Deuteronomy 18:14-22, is that it refers to Messiah {the Prophet in whose mouth the Word of God pours forth directly}, and he is from the tribe of Judah. Other posts above mine have shown where the new Testament makes allusion to this in acts, so I won't bother repeating, but their points are very solid. Acts makes it clear that Jesus was taught and understood to be the prophet of Deuteronomy 18.Also, perhaps you'll have to forgive me for being a little indirect and not concise in this post, as I was rushing to get it done upon your request, but there is another valid piece of evidence to observe which will help us understand this passage.Deuteronomy 18 holds testimony of the great promise. Deuteronomy 34:10-12, the end of the Torah, eagerly awaits the Messiah. The passage is actually quite telling however. Let's observe it carefully."Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel." ~Deuteronomy 34:10-12First, we know that they understood that the profession "from among your brothers" meant that he is to come out of Israel. "no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses..." So the profession is made clear, even within the Torah itself, conclusively. Furthermore, we understand that they are awaiting one sent to guide them who performs the awesome deeds like Moses did in Egypt. The key being; "In the Sight of All Israel". Jesus surely was a prophet sent unto Israel. If we observe Jesus' miracles closely, we find that he has the same authority as Moses in them, but they are distinctly different. For example, Moses turns water to blood, and Christ turns water to wine {which represents the blood of the new Covenant, and finds the root of it's meaning in prophesy, such as Genesis 49 cited above}.I am trying to refrain from diving head first into deep theology, but I admit it's hard, because this is one of the subjects which I feel most passionate about; Prophesy.However, I will digress, and simply leave it at this for now.The passage surely does refer to Messiah, the Anointed one of Israel, who has the authority of Moses, from Israel, and is sent to reveal the word of God directly {as with Horeb} to the ears of Israel.In Hope,~Tyrel
     
  8. Tyrel

    Tyrel New Member

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    Hmm.. reading over that post now, I'm realizing I forgot a lot of information I meant to present. Oh well.. hopefully it's readable. We can let that be a basis for a good discussion I think.Forgive me for going off on a tangent there a little bit, I'm just very passionate about Prophesy [​IMG]
     
  9. ami

    ami New Member

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    Tyrel,Wow, That was a very good, interesting, simple,contextualy presented post!! I love you Tyrel. Pls continue to give us your insights on such questions.God BlessAmi
     
  10. Tyrel

    Tyrel New Member

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    (ami;27069)
    Tyrel,Wow, That was a very good, interesting, simple,contextualy presented post!! I love you Tyrel. Pls continue to give us your insights on such questions.God BlessAmi
    Thank you. I'll be honest, I'm a tad tentative about posting here very much, but I'll do what I can. [​IMG]In hope,~Tyrel
     
  11. Tyrel

    Tyrel New Member

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    (Ricky W;27026)
    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimYour possibilities it might be logic as well, yes that could be one of the possibilities that might what it is. However if we saw what Jesus has said in John, it would be more clearly state, that the prophet was not Jesus(pbuh).Let us see what i meant by seeing these verses below :John 16:16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.This verse clearly state Jesus(pbuh) was not the prophet that Deuteronomy 18 has said, why ? If we see the language structure that Jesus(pbuh) has said, he using word he instead of I. Which is from we can tell that the prophet was male, but not Jesus (pbuh).16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.This verse give us more better view that the prophet was not Jesus(pbuh) himself.
    Dear Ricky,Upon your request, I'm going to take what I previously said as my basis, and continue to explain to you these other associated arguments, which are the most basic of Muslim apologetics.Just so every Christian understands and can keep up, one of the most common apologetic arguments from Muslims concerning Christianity, which is also one of the oldest within Islamic tradition, is to claim that Deuteronomy 18 speaks of Muhammed. This is supported in a few ways. First, the passage is seen as indicative not of the prophet coming from an Israelite tribe, but of him coming from the brothers of the Jews, who are presumably, it is thought, the Ishmaelites. Another support comes from the understanding that the prophet is to be like Moses, and there are compiled lists showing how Moses and Muhammed are more alike than Moses and Jesus {though the lists often use things like "neither were born of virgin birth" or other such things, drawing off of the particularities of Christ}. Another common way to support it, is to suggest that the scriptures hold testimony, if we look at them properly, that Jesus foretold Muhammed.Where does this come from? Well;"O Children of Israel! I am a messenger of Allah to you, confirming what is before me from the Tawraat, and announcing tidings of a messenger to follow me whose name shall be Ahmad!" ~ Surah 61:6This, the Qur'an teaches, is the teaching of Jesus. He is the main speaker in this instance. So, it is believed that Jesus prophesied another prophet after him. It is often pointed out that Muhammed comes from the root Ahmad, and thus Jesus' prophecy obviously wasn't directly mentioning Muhammed by name. {This is essential to the argument in it's most sophisticated form.}Alright, so now that we're done the preamble;The passage In John needs to be taken into it's context. Let's bring it up again with some context.First, it is important to understand that the Gospel of John is retrospective and in the form more akin to that of a sermon than a historical account. As such, it is looking back on the ministry of Christ, and relating it to the devout Christian, bringing all the meaning it can."Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. " ~John 16:5-15Christ had just resurrected, and was promising to his followers "the comforter". Who was this?Many times Muslims bring up that the biblical text shows that it is a masculine tense and since the Holy Spirit itself should be feminine this must refer to somebody/something else. Sometimes, though more rarely, it is claimed that Christians changed this passage, intentionally or not, such that the reading now {Parakletos}, was originally "Periklutos" in the Greek {Periklutos = the praised, or Praised One}. {Ahmed root = praised one}.Now, I don't know Greek, but from what I understand, the Grammar shift from changing that one word, would have made the sentence grammatically incorrect. Basically, from one word to another, one would have to slightly restructure the sentence to even allow it to make sense. That, as far as I'm concerned, rules out scribal error. However, the tradition in the Church that this passage is meant to be about the Holy Spirit is unanimous. There is no question about it in Church teaching in early Christianity. This passage is thought to be fulfilled in the Pentecost. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, by the by, is referred to in the male tense in the New Testament, because only in the Hebrew does it have a feminine form. The masculine form can't be taken to indicate that it must be a prophet, for that's not fair exegesis at all. If I practiced that exegesis with the Qur'an, then God would be plural and Triune {oh the irony [​IMG]}.The Gospel of John, recall, is being retrospective. It's reflecting on Jesus' teaching and very obviously here is referring to the Holy Spirit whom the apostles were told would come to them.It is perhaps valid to note that in John's Gospel Jesus did breath on them and said that by this they received the spirit, and has no account of Pentecost. while that's a fair point, once again I'd like to stress that John's Gospel is retrospective, and makes no attempt to be perfectly chronological, or sych up with the synoptic Gospels. If one studies the Gospel of John on it's own and looks closely, they will notice that John's Gospel does not paint the cross as the instrument of salvation at all, and instead we are made clean "by Jesus' words" and very simply by his words. Much of the language is that of a sermon {almost a pastoral}, and needs to be understood that way.Keeping in context, let's observe another part of John's Gospel which speaks of this "Comforter", to see if we can figure out more conclusively from the text itself who/what this is."I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." ~ John 14:16-20So, what do we know of this "comforter" now, when we observe the word in the context of the whole Gospel narrative? Well, first, it is worthy to note that on both these occasions Jesus is speaking privately to his apostles. Here he speaks more clearly that he will not leave them as orphans without a guide. Surely nobody would claim that Muhammed came soon enough to guide the apostles. What else do we discover? Well, we find that whoever the comforter is, he already "Lives with you". Meaning, he presently lives with the apostles, and then the passage goes on to say how he will come to live within them. Surely, Muhammed is no longer a possibility by now.This is all I have time for at the moment. To recap, I've shown that Deuteronomy 18 is conclusively speaking about a prophet from within Israel, as we can surmise both from the passage itself, and from Deuteronomy 34:10-12. I've shown that Jesus is not ever recorded foretelling a coming prophet of any kind {at least, not within the Ingil}. Ricky, you voiced your concerns privately to me that you didn't feel I was going to properly answer to you. I admit I'm now pressed for time, so I apologize if this is true. However, in the case that it is, please feel free to re-post, or post, anything you would like me to address.In Hope,~Tyrel
     
  12. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim("tyrel")
    "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die." The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." ~Deuteronomy 18:15-19.
    This is interesting to say, but seems like the word that i color it was has an little bit influence to the meaning if we compare with KJV which is using word brethren rather then brothers [​IMG].~ Now let me ask you a question, why is God so bother (*forgive me God for questioning it, may Your mercy be upon on me) using word 'their brothers' instead of 'among yours' (*just let say the meaning was as like the way you just said it) ?~ And who is that God mean of word "their" in that verse ? And who is "their brothers"(*let say we following your argument) point at ?("tyrel")
    This prophet was not an average prophet, as the Jews Recognized. They were to expect somebody very grand. The revelation tells us another interesting thing as well. "From among your brothers". Now, this particular phrase, regardless of translation, is found throughout the Torah. However, to my knowledge, there is not a single instance where it refers to anything other than another Jewish Tribe. This Prophesy was stating that God was going to send the promised prophet to Israel."You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an Image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman," ~Deuteronomy 4:15-16
    You said, that is not a single instance it refers to anything other than another Jewish Tribe.~ I think it would be more clearly if you can explain to me who is the word "their" meant up there ?~ It also was cannot be denying the facts that Ishmael descent was brethren / brothers to Israel, which with that facts also the meaning of the verse has effect to Ishmael descents. I really don't understand how come can say such of that opinion ?~ Now, tyrel if you believe that "the prophet was Jesus(pbuh)", is itn't will contrary with the covenant at Horeb ? Meanwhile christian believe that Jesus(pbuh) was in an image of man which is God was in image of man.And i will try to catch up your latest post, if i could to response [​IMG].Wallahu a'lam
     
  13. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim("tyrel")
    Deuteronomy 18 holds testimony of the great promise. Deuteronomy 34:10-12, the end of the Torah, eagerly awaits the Messiah. The passage is actually quite telling however. Let's observe it carefully."Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel." ~Deuteronomy 34:10-12First, we know that they understood that the profession "from among your brothers" meant that he is to come out of Israel. "no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses..." So the profession is made clear, even within the Torah itself, conclusively. Furthermore, we understand that they are awaiting one sent to guide them who performs the awesome deeds like Moses did in Egypt. The key being; "In the Sight of All Israel". Jesus surely was a prophet sent unto Israel. If we observe Jesus' miracles closely, we find that he has the same authority as Moses in them, but they are distinctly different. For example, Moses turns water to blood, and Christ turns water to wine {which represents the blood of the new Covenant, and finds the root of it's meaning in prophesy, such as Genesis 49 cited above}.
    Deuteronomy 34:10 (NIV)-(*the one that tyrel use for this verse) Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses.It seems like your argument was contrary with Deuteronomy, because it's clearly said in that verse that since Moses, there wouldn't be any prophet from Israel that has the same think like Moses did. Now if i'm seeing your yellow argument above, i see an contrary. Because God said, there wouldn't be a rise again among Israel a prophet that like Moses, but your yellow argument showing two things that make it an opposite. 1st Jesus was one of Israel, meanwhile God said there wouldn't be any prophet among Israel any more, which is i believe this prophet has related todo with Deu 18, why ? Because the fact according to bible, there are still several prophet who has come to Israel through Jacob descent. So it must be the prophet on Deu 18 that Deu 34 was talking about. 2nd. It said that there wouldn't be any prophet from Israel that do same thing like Moses did., but on your yellow argument above, you are trying to make Jesus did the same thing, which is that would make a contrary prophesy.Are you understand what i'm saying tyrel ?("tyrel")
    I am trying to refrain from diving head first into deep theology, but I admit it's hard, because this is one of the subjects which I feel most passionate about; Prophesy.However, I will digress, and simply leave it at this for now.The passage surely does refer to Messiah, the Anointed one of Israel, who has the authority of Moses, from Israel, and is sent to reveal the word of God directly {as with Horeb} to the ears of Israel.
    But unfortanately Jesus (pbuh) has become something agains God Words, if we following what Christian believe regarding on Jesus, please pay attention on my previous post before this post for the reason why i'm giving this argument.Correct me for my wrong opinion regarding on what your scriptures has told.Best regards,Ricky WisnadriWallaahu a'lam.
     
  14. Thunder1

    Thunder1 New Member

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    Yes, and Jesus did not teach against God. There were other prophets before Jesus, yes, but it does not mean Muhammed.
     
  15. Thunder1

    Thunder1 New Member

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    Ricky, are you born again from the Holy Spirit? That would really help you to study The Bible, if that's your goal. You can argue all you want in fleshly thinking, where does that take you at the end? You don't seem to really be interested to know Jesus Christ as your Saviour. Your choice. You just seem to look for faults. Is there anything good that you have found from the Bible. You've been reading it a lot, I guess, but in you own fleshly mindset. I would think, because you seem like a smart man that you would have found some positives into your life from The Bible for now.Just wondering what is your real motive in here???
     
  16. rawelsingh

    rawelsingh New Member

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    Deu 18:18 says that the Messiah will covey God's word. I have been trying to understand what the Messiah promised in the Old Testament was to do and how Jesus did that. The New testament has numerous statements saying Jesus was that Messiah.Rawel Singh
     
  17. Thunder1

    Thunder1 New Member

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    rawelsingh,what is your question exactly?
     
  18. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Thunder1)
    Ricky, are you born again from the Holy Spirit? That would really help you to study The Bible, if that's your goal. You can argue all you want in fleshly thinking, where does that take you at the end? You don't seem to really be interested to know Jesus Christ as your Saviour. Your choice. You just seem to look for faults. Is there anything good that you have found from the Bible. You've been reading it a lot, I guess, but in you own fleshly mindset. I would think, because you seem like a smart man that you would have found some positives into your life from The Bible for now.Just wondering what is your real motive in here???
    What ever you like to say thunder1 [​IMG].Wallaahu a'lam.
     
  19. Thunder1

    Thunder1 New Member

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    (Ricky W;28658)
    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimWhat ever you like to say thunder1 [​IMG].Wallaahu a'lam.
    Ricky,Just wanted to say: Our God loves you and so do I ![​IMG]
     
  20. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Thunder1)
    Ricky,Just wanted to say: Our God loves you and so do I ![​IMG]
    Well i do apologize if disappointed you, but you are not answering what i've questioned in this thread. Sorry your statement was nothing todo with the thread [​IMG]. And thanks for your word above, and i do believe Jesus and others God prophets will proud with the follower of Muhammad s.a.w. and you will it see later, in the end of the day [​IMG]. Wallaahu a'lam.
     
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