Did God separate from Jesus?

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John Caldwell

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“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46)

I believe that Christ suffered and died on the cross by the actions of godless men and in accordance with God's plan. Jesus was "forsaken" to suffer the cross.

I have seen it argued that on the cross God separated from Jesus.

My argument against that view is it presents God as faithless to the righteous and unrighteous to His word. We can expect God to be ever present in us because he was present with Christ through His sufferings and vindicated Him by raising Him from the dead.

What are the opinions (on either side)?
 

101G

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"The Office of the Holy Spirit Revealed"
by the forsaking of the Son

The question is asked, did God forsake the son on the cross, or seperate from the son. answer, NO. as a matter of fact, when Jesus said that it is finished, yes, on Sin in the world, but the glory and, the wonderful work of God just began. and that work, after preaching to the spirits in prison, then the day of Pentecost the Holy Ghost shed forth.

"of God forsaking the son", this is bared out in Isaiah chapter 59, read this chapter good. the word forsaking, (forsook), means leave, here, the present of the Father, in that body, came out of the son, because the sins of the whole world will be laid on him. This word forsook is interesting. Forsook , or forsaking is the act of, or the allowing of one to be sacrifice. Note, to clearly see this, another word, or some synonyms words for forsook is, renounced, relinquished, “sacrificed”. Sacrificed is the word we are looking for. For the Lord God did provide for himself a sacrifice, (a lamb). Genesis 22:8 "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together”. And who is this Lamb?, God himself, shared in flesh. John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". John 1:35 "Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"

this is bared out in Hebrews 9:26. "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself”. God the Spirit cannot dwell in an unclean place, and the scripture is clear, God will never forsake you, nor leave you, read Hebrews 13:15. and reading the whole chapter of Isa 59, (the entire book is worth reading), Jesus the lamb of God, (this body), was made/design to suffer, even the death of the cross, hence the “sacrifice”. Philippians 2:5 " Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross". And upon that death, it released, or relinquished, (that's what forsook means also), the full power and attributes of God in human form. Glory to Jesus, (remember with blood he was G2758 κενόω kenoo, Limited). but now, No more blood to hinder the Power of God, (in that natural body, hence the change). now the same eternal Spirit, that is, and was, is now to come, the Holy Spirit, is Glorified in that form, that figure, that fashion as a man. now Jesus/God/Spirit is fully diverse in heaven as well as on earth. 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit". in his final administration, this process of forsooking was to give us the same power he had, WITHOUT MEASURE, (which answeres the “Greater than I question, because he goes to the Spirit in which he was glorified in John 17). that's why we have the ministering Gifts or as some say the five fold ministries, all because of his, "forsaking" on on the cross in order to release all the power of God in human fashion. supportive scripture, Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." as the apostle Peter said, Acts 2:32 "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear". all credit to the "forsaking" on on the cross, we now have what he have, "POWER". which takes us to the last dispensation of GRACE. the preaching of the Gospel. the ongoing work of the ministry, world redemption.

for this "forsaking of the Son", on the cross, the "sacrifice”, without it, we wouldn't be able to preach the Gospel, nor help in restoring the temple of God, which is another topic in itself. 1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

so the forsaking here is not an abandonment, nor a leaving, but the beginning of a recovery or restoration plan, starting with the spirits in prison. this rescue, or might as well say it, this plan of salvation started ...... yes, right there on the cross with the relinquishing of the FULL POWER of God in human form. the relinquishing or the "forsaking" was voluntarily, it was God's plan all along.
PICJAG.
 
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Waiting on him

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“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46)

I believe that Christ suffered and died on the cross by the actions of godless men and in accordance with God's plan. Jesus was "forsaken" to suffer the cross.

I have seen it argued that on the cross God separated from Jesus.

My argument against that view is it presents God as faithless to the righteous and unrighteous to His word. We can expect God to be ever present in us because he was present with Christ through His sufferings and vindicated Him by raising Him from the dead.

What are the opinions (on either side)?
How about He God separated from the flesh?
 
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Waiting on him

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Every man has know what it is to be separated from God this is the first time in my opinion that Jesus realized this.
 
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Enoch111

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What are the opinions (on either side)?
The question in the title is inconsistent with what is stated in Scripture. The question should be "Did God the Father forsake Jesus while He received the penalty for every sin on the cross?"

This is one of those things where humanistic reasoning must give way to divine logic. If God made Christ *SIN* for us, then it follows that the Father forsook the Son while He suffered and paid the full penalty for the sins of the world. Both the Hebrew and Aramaic words for *forsaken* literally mean abandoned.

Psalm 22:1 --
עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי (‘ă-zaḇ-tā-nî) = leave, forsake, lose, depart from, leave behind.

Matthew 27:46 -- σαβαχθάνι (Aramaic sabachthani) = thou hast forsaken me

We don't need opinions when we have the exact words of Christ presented in both the Old and New Testaments. So what you should be asking yourself is" "Does God say what He means, and means what He says"?
 

John Caldwell

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The question in the title is inconsistent with what is stated in Scripture. The question should be "Did God the Father forsake Jesus while He received the penalty for every sin on the cross?"

This is one of those things where humanistic reasoning must give way to divine logic. If God made Christ *SIN* for us, then it follows that the Father forsook the Son while He suffered and paid the full penalty for the sins of the world. Both the Hebrew and Aramaic words for *forsaken* literally mean abandoned.

Psalm 22:1 --
עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי (‘ă-zaḇ-tā-nî) = leave, forsake, lose, depart from, leave behind.

Matthew 27:46 -- σαβαχθάνι (Aramaic sabachthani) = thou hast forsaken me

We don't need opinions when we have the exact words of Christ presented in both the Old and New Testaments. So what you should be asking yourself is" "Does God say what He means, and means what He says"?
The reason I disagree the question is inconsistent with Scripture is that the word "forsake" (Hebrew or Greek) does not mean to "separate from" or even to "abandon" in that context. In the OT forsake often signifies a lack of deliverance (several times in the Psalms, and in Job) an abandonment to a state (again, in the Psalms), and even abandonment in terms of separation (Psalms and Proverbs).

So the question is why take on a meaning denied by other passages when unnecessary? Why create a "mystery" when none exists?

It would have bern impossible for God to have seoarated from Christ and God to remain the God of Scripture. But the Father could forsake His Christ to suffer at the hands of wicked men.
 

DoveSpirit05

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“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46)

I believe that Christ suffered and died on the cross by the actions of godless men and in accordance with God's plan. Jesus was "forsaken" to suffer the cross.

I have seen it argued that on the cross God separated from Jesus.

My argument against that view is it presents God as faithless to the righteous and unrighteous to His word. We can expect God to be ever present in us because he was present with Christ through His sufferings and vindicated Him by raising Him from the dead.

What are the opinions (on either side)?

Isaiah 54:7“For a brief moment I forsook you, but with great compassion I will bring you back. 8 In a surge of anger I hid My face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD your Redeemer.
 

marks

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God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

If we are reconciled by the cross, God was there.
 
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Enoch111

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The reason I disagree the question is inconsistent with Scripture is that the word "forsake" (Hebrew or Greek) does not mean to "separate from" or even to "abandon" in that context.
Well Brown-Driver-Briggs gives us the meaning and it does mean forsake, nothing else. Check it out for yourself since I already quoted all the meanings. And the Greek for the Aramaic says the same thing. Now you can either make up your own theology or stick with Scripture, NO MATTER HOW INCOMPREHENSIBLE.
 

John Caldwell

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Well Brown-Driver-Briggs gives us the meaning and it does mean forsake, nothing else. Check it out for yourself since I already quoted all the meanings. And the Greek for the Aramaic says the same thing. Now you can either make up your own theology or stick with Scripture, NO MATTER HOW INCOMPREHENSIBLE.
It does mean forsake (which does not mean "separate from"). I think you would do better to exercise more discernment when choosing what you want "forsake" to mean so as not contradict Scripture itself.

No one is arguing that Christ was not forsaken to suffer the Cross. What I am arguing is that God is not faithless to His Word and will never abandon (in terms of withdrawing Himself) the righteous.

We cannot make God false even if our theology demands it.
 
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John Caldwell

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Since nothing is impossible with God, God remained the God of Scripture during that time.
The reason it would be impossible for God to have departed from Jesus is Scripture tells us it is, in fact, impossible for God to lie. This does not mean it is beyond God's power, but it is beneath His character.

God did forsake Christ to suffer and die (God "hid his face" and did not deliever Christ from death). But you know what? God delievered Christ through death and raised Him on the third day. The wicked men who esteemed Jesus stricken by God were proved wrong in their evil and Jesus was vindicated, overcoming the power of sin and death, freeing us from its bondage, and rising victorious.

Here is an irony:

Scripture attributes those who esteemed Jesus as stricken by God as being sinful men, and those who punished Jesus as wicked men doing evil.

But Calvinists esteem Christ as stricken by God and it being God who punished Christ (the exact opposite of Scripture).
 
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prism

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God is One...indivisible, undivided, otherwise we have three gods.
 

marks

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Well Brown-Driver-Briggs gives us the meaning and it does mean forsake, nothing else. Check it out for yourself since I already quoted all the meanings. And the Greek for the Aramaic says the same thing. Now you can either make up your own theology or stick with Scripture, NO MATTER HOW INCOMPREHENSIBLE.
Personally, I find his theology comprehensible.

Much love!
 

marks

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It does mean forsake (which does not mean "separate from"). I think you would do better to exercise more discernment when choosing what you want "forsake" to mean so as not contradict Scripture itself.

No one is arguing that Christ was not forsaken to suffer the Cross. What I am arguing is that God is not faithless to His Word and will never abandon (in terms of withdrawing Himself) the righteous.

We cannot make God false even if our theology demands it.
Hi John,

I think this makes a great point! Jesus said, Learn of me, it's Colossians, I think, that says we are renewed in the knowledge of the one who created us.

Learning the nature and character of God gives us understanding into what He does.

And no, He will Never abandon the righteous. Though He does put us to the test, and even allows us to die physically.

We talk about separation from God as the penalty of sin, but if that's the case, that penalty is already exacted on us all. It's just a fact of life, sins separate us from God. God says the wages of sin is death. Jesus never sinned, so Jesus was never separated from God, yet Jesus died, to give us safe passage, and new life.

We are justified, so separation ends, and we are raised up to life.

Much love!
 
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101G

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Jesus never sinned, so Jesus was never separated from God, yet Jesus died, to give us safe passage, and new life.
TRUE, but the sins of the world was laid upon him. and condemned sin in the flesh, which will be done away (the natural flesh) at his coming.
PICJAG.