Did Jesus Have A Sin Nature just wandering as he is the 2nd Adam, Well we all know what happened to the first Adam. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Surely there was no point in Satan Tempting Christ if Christ could not succome to the Temptation.Kevin
Did Jesus Have A Sin Nature
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I Peter 2:22 - Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:I John 3:5 - And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.Hebrews 4:15 - For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.II Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
Jon-Marc
New Member
(Beano;35706)
Did Jesus Have A Sin Nature just wandering as he is the 2nd Adam, Well we all know what happened to the first Adam. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Surely there was no point in Satan Tempting Christ if Christ could not succome to the Temptation.Kevin
I do not believe that He had a sin nature, although I've never understood why He couldn't inherit one from Eve--despite some people's false belief that she was sinless.Satan TRIED to tempt Him but couldn't since He couldn't sin--being God. So what was the purpose of the alleged "temptation"? Yes, He was man with man's weaknesses (hunger, thirst, and pain), but He was also God. He didn't give up being God. You have to be capable of sinning in order to be tempted. Lucifer didn't have a sin nature but gave in to temptation. From where did the temptation come? God does not tempt anyone to sin--so that temptation came from within Lucifer. You have to desire the sin in order for it to BE a temptation. Illegal drugs are no temptation for me since they have never interested me. Lust is another thing that has never been a problem for me. I have my temptations, but some things don't tempt me. In order for Jesus to be tempted, He had to be able to sin. I refuse to believe that He could have done so.The Bible says that Jesus was tempted in every way that we are. Was He tempted to have sex with another man's wife or a prostitute (or with a man, or even a child)? Those are very real temptations in many people. Was He tempted to steal or kill innocent people as some are and do? Was He tempted to tell lies and defame someone's name? The list goes on of the many temptations that people go through, and I don't believe that Jesus actually desired to do any of them--let alone ALL of them.I repeat--It's NOT a temptation if you have no desire to do it. A sister-in-law had four children by four different men--three of my brothers and a black man. One of them actually was from her husband. She wanted a fifth one by me, but I wasn't interested or even tempted in the least. Two of my brothers were tempted and each gave her a baby. It was a temptation for them that they couldn't resist, but not for me. The desire has to be there from WITHIN us in order for us to be tempted.
Did Jesus Have A Sin Nature just wandering as he is the 2nd Adam, Well we all know what happened to the first Adam. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Surely there was no point in Satan Tempting Christ if Christ could not succome to the Temptation.Kevin
I do not believe that He had a sin nature, although I've never understood why He couldn't inherit one from Eve--despite some people's false belief that she was sinless.Satan TRIED to tempt Him but couldn't since He couldn't sin--being God. So what was the purpose of the alleged "temptation"? Yes, He was man with man's weaknesses (hunger, thirst, and pain), but He was also God. He didn't give up being God. You have to be capable of sinning in order to be tempted. Lucifer didn't have a sin nature but gave in to temptation. From where did the temptation come? God does not tempt anyone to sin--so that temptation came from within Lucifer. You have to desire the sin in order for it to BE a temptation. Illegal drugs are no temptation for me since they have never interested me. Lust is another thing that has never been a problem for me. I have my temptations, but some things don't tempt me. In order for Jesus to be tempted, He had to be able to sin. I refuse to believe that He could have done so.The Bible says that Jesus was tempted in every way that we are. Was He tempted to have sex with another man's wife or a prostitute (or with a man, or even a child)? Those are very real temptations in many people. Was He tempted to steal or kill innocent people as some are and do? Was He tempted to tell lies and defame someone's name? The list goes on of the many temptations that people go through, and I don't believe that Jesus actually desired to do any of them--let alone ALL of them.I repeat--It's NOT a temptation if you have no desire to do it. A sister-in-law had four children by four different men--three of my brothers and a black man. One of them actually was from her husband. She wanted a fifth one by me, but I wasn't interested or even tempted in the least. Two of my brothers were tempted and each gave her a baby. It was a temptation for them that they couldn't resist, but not for me. The desire has to be there from WITHIN us in order for us to be tempted.
MickinEngland
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- Dec 15, 2006
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Jesus was half-God, half-human, and he knew his human half sometimes let him down -Jesus said -"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone"- Luke 18:18-19
Agree more with Jon-Marc. Jesus is Fully Man and Fully God, He has two natures. Because His human nature is not fallen, He could not sin internally as we can. But He could be tested externally as Adam was. Someone else (Satan) could not tempt him externally, which is what we see here.What was the point? To show us that temptation can be resisted. To show us how to resist it. And to warn us that no matter how "holy" we think we are, we will be tempted.
(MickinEngland;35740)
Jesus was half-God, half-human, and he knew his human half sometimes let him down -Jesus said -"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone"- Luke 18:18-19
Unbiblical claim, Yahshua was fully man, fully God, to make Him less being God, is to make Him not equal with Himself.Philippians 2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:Besides that verse you quoted, Yahshua, was teaching...JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
Jesus was half-God, half-human, and he knew his human half sometimes let him down -Jesus said -"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone"- Luke 18:18-19
Unbiblical claim, Yahshua was fully man, fully God, to make Him less being God, is to make Him not equal with Himself.Philippians 2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:Besides that verse you quoted, Yahshua, was teaching...JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
MickinEngland
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(thesuperjag;35902)
Yahshua was fully man, fully God, to make Him less being God, is to make Him not equal with Himself.
Huh??
Yahshua was fully man, fully God, to make Him less being God, is to make Him not equal with Himself.
Huh??
(MickinEngland;35913)
(thesuperjag;35902)
Yahshua was fully man, fully God, to make Him less being God, is to make Him not equal with Himself.
Huh??Didst thou sayest that He was half-God and half-man?To say that Yahshua was half-God, is to say that He was a lesser god than Himself.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
(thesuperjag;35902)
Yahshua was fully man, fully God, to make Him less being God, is to make Him not equal with Himself.
Huh??Didst thou sayest that He was half-God and half-man?To say that Yahshua was half-God, is to say that He was a lesser god than Himself.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
(Beano;35706)
Did Jesus Have A Sin Nature just wandering as he is the 2nd Adam, Well we all know what happened to the first Adam. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Surely there was no point in Satan Tempting Christ if Christ could not succome to the Temptation.Kevin
Leviticus 17:11- The life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood. In the Hebrew life/soul is nephesh. Greek psuche. Natural fathers pass their ruined souls to sons and daughters through conception. Evidenced by the blood type of the child comming from the father. God was the Father of Jesus. No sin, no sin nature. Hebrews 5:8 though Jesus was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things He suffered (wilderness etc.). Also, Jesus is the last adam.
Did Jesus Have A Sin Nature just wandering as he is the 2nd Adam, Well we all know what happened to the first Adam. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Surely there was no point in Satan Tempting Christ if Christ could not succome to the Temptation.Kevin
Leviticus 17:11- The life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood. In the Hebrew life/soul is nephesh. Greek psuche. Natural fathers pass their ruined souls to sons and daughters through conception. Evidenced by the blood type of the child comming from the father. God was the Father of Jesus. No sin, no sin nature. Hebrews 5:8 though Jesus was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things He suffered (wilderness etc.). Also, Jesus is the last adam.
I stand corrected Jesus is the last AdamThis is what I believe.1. Jesus is the last Adam and came to redeem us from the mistakes of the first Adam.2. both Adam and Jesus entered this world sinless.3. Adam acquired a sin nature the moment he sined, disobeyed God.4. Jesus never Sinned nor did He have a Sin Nature but took our sin on himself on the cross.Now this is the bit I Struggle with.If the First Adam Aquired a sin nature because of of the temptation of the Devil then Surely? Jesus could of aquired a sin nature if he hadn't of resisted the temptations the Devil was throwing at him. Neither Christ nor the Devil were ignorant of each other, so would the Devil had tempted Jesus if Jesus could not of succume to the temptation.Kevin
(Beano;35946)
I stand corrected Jesus is the last AdamThis is what I believe.1. Jesus is the last Adam and came to redeem us from the mistakes of the first Adam.2. both Adam and Jesus entered this world sinless.3. Adam acquired a sin nature the moment he sined, disobeyed God.4. Jesus never Sinned nor did He have a Sin Nature but took our sin on himself on the cross.Now this is the bit I Struggle with.If the First Adam Aquired a sin nature because of of the temptation of the Devil then Surely? Jesus could of aquired a sin nature if he hadn't of resisted the temptations the Devil was throwing at him. Neither Christ nor the Devil were ignorant of each other, so would the Devil had tempted Jesus if Jesus could not of succumb to the temptation.Kevin
AMEN to the AMEN! This is True
I stand corrected Jesus is the last AdamThis is what I believe.1. Jesus is the last Adam and came to redeem us from the mistakes of the first Adam.2. both Adam and Jesus entered this world sinless.3. Adam acquired a sin nature the moment he sined, disobeyed God.4. Jesus never Sinned nor did He have a Sin Nature but took our sin on himself on the cross.Now this is the bit I Struggle with.If the First Adam Aquired a sin nature because of of the temptation of the Devil then Surely? Jesus could of aquired a sin nature if he hadn't of resisted the temptations the Devil was throwing at him. Neither Christ nor the Devil were ignorant of each other, so would the Devil had tempted Jesus if Jesus could not of succumb to the temptation.Kevin
AMEN to the AMEN! This is True
Beano,While the satan is very powerful, I do not think he is divine or has the "knowledge" of everything. Perhaps part of what he is doing here is a test to see if this Man really is the Son of God. Clearly later all the demons are aware, but that could be the result of satan realizing in this test Who Jesus was, not from foreknowledge. Just a thought.
(DrBubbaLove;36006)
Beano,While the satan is very powerful, I do not think he is divine or has the "knowledge" of everything. Perhaps part of what he is doing here is a test to see if this Man really is the Son of God. Clearly later all the demons are aware, but that could be the result of satan realizing in this test Who Jesus was, not from foreknowledge. Just a thought.
Then why did God say that Satan was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty?Ezekiel 28:12 - Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
Beano,While the satan is very powerful, I do not think he is divine or has the "knowledge" of everything. Perhaps part of what he is doing here is a test to see if this Man really is the Son of God. Clearly later all the demons are aware, but that could be the result of satan realizing in this test Who Jesus was, not from foreknowledge. Just a thought.
Then why did God say that Satan was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty?Ezekiel 28:12 - Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
(Beano;35706)
Did Jesus Have A Sin Nature just wandering as he is the 2nd Adam, Well we all know what happened to the first Adam. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Surely there was no point in Satan Tempting Christ if Christ could not succome to the Temptation.Kevin
No Jesus was like the first adam before adams fall and did not have a sin nature or as some call it inherited sin .but yes Jesus was tempted in every way yet was with out sin.unlike Adam after HIS fall.
Did Jesus Have A Sin Nature just wandering as he is the 2nd Adam, Well we all know what happened to the first Adam. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Surely there was no point in Satan Tempting Christ if Christ could not succome to the Temptation.Kevin
No Jesus was like the first adam before adams fall and did not have a sin nature or as some call it inherited sin .but yes Jesus was tempted in every way yet was with out sin.unlike Adam after HIS fall.
(thesuperjag;36038)
Then why did God say that Satan was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty?Ezekiel 28:12 - Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Jag, as there was a real King of Tyrus who worshipped Baal and whom all these predictions and things could be said about, am not sure how we conclude Ezekiel is speaking of Satan here. But either way, this goes off topic in changing it from speaking of Jesus and His Nature to talking about Satan and his nature. Would be happy to do that elsewhere with you.
Then why did God say that Satan was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty?Ezekiel 28:12 - Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Jag, as there was a real King of Tyrus who worshipped Baal and whom all these predictions and things could be said about, am not sure how we conclude Ezekiel is speaking of Satan here. But either way, this goes off topic in changing it from speaking of Jesus and His Nature to talking about Satan and his nature. Would be happy to do that elsewhere with you.
DrBubbaLoveI think Jag is right on this one. Verses 1-10 of Ezekiel 28 are talking about a real king ( the King of Tyre). Verses 11-19 is talking about Satan who is the influence on the the king of Tyre and is addressed as the King of Tyre because he is the one with all the power. It couldnt be said of any Human that Verse 12 they were the seal of perfection full of wisdom and perfect in beautyverse 13 you were in Eden the garden of God.Verse 14 you were the anointed cherub. etc etc.I think this chapter is a bit like when Jusus tells Peter "get behind me Satan" Jesus isnt calling Peter, Satan but he is addressing the influence.This is how I read Ezekiel 28 however i'm open to any correction and further enlightenment on this chapter.Kevin
(Beano;36366)
DrBubbaLoveI think Jag is right on this one. Verses 1-10 of Ezekiel 28 are talking about a real king ( the King of Tyre). Verses 11-19 is talking about Satan who is the influence on the the king of Tyre and is addressed as the King of Tyre because he is the one with all the power. It couldnt be said of any Human that Verse 12 they were the seal of perfection full of wisdom and perfect in beautyverse 13 you were in Eden the garden of God.Verse 14 you were the anointed cherub. etc etc.I think this chapter is a bit like when Jusus tells Peter "get behind me Satan" Jesus isnt calling Peter, Satan but he is addressing the influence.This is how I read Ezekiel 28 however i'm open to any correction and further enlightenment on this chapter.Kevin
Ezekiel 28 is all about Satan.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
DrBubbaLoveI think Jag is right on this one. Verses 1-10 of Ezekiel 28 are talking about a real king ( the King of Tyre). Verses 11-19 is talking about Satan who is the influence on the the king of Tyre and is addressed as the King of Tyre because he is the one with all the power. It couldnt be said of any Human that Verse 12 they were the seal of perfection full of wisdom and perfect in beautyverse 13 you were in Eden the garden of God.Verse 14 you were the anointed cherub. etc etc.I think this chapter is a bit like when Jusus tells Peter "get behind me Satan" Jesus isnt calling Peter, Satan but he is addressing the influence.This is how I read Ezekiel 28 however i'm open to any correction and further enlightenment on this chapter.Kevin
Ezekiel 28 is all about Satan.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
(thesuperjag;36370)
Ezekiel 28 is all about Satan.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
The King of Tyre in these verses is real and the language used reflects how great his fall was. Speaking in pre-fall terms in regards to the King is an allegory and symbolic. And yes the same could be said of Satan or anyone so in that sense the King is a type for the anti-Christ and for Satan himself. Like most passages there can be several ways of looking at the message.My point however as stated, was that either way we look at the verses in Ezekiel we go off topic to switch from speaking of Jesus Nature to Satan's nature. But as you insist;The question was why God said Satan was full of wisdom (and beauty) in Ezekiel if Satan does not have Perfect Knowledge (my claim was Satan cannot see the future as God can and perhaps was unsure if Jesus was really God before the temptation). First we must acknowledge that Satan is very powerful. He also once held a very lofty position, if not above all other angels at least very near so. Ezekiel's reference is speaking of the King's status BEFORE his fall and applied to Satan, wisdom here would refer to before Satan fell. But Satan fell from that status. The depth of any such fall is porportional to how "high" one was. So we can conclude no angel and probably no other being could fall as far as Satan has. So whatever we say Satan once was (full of wisdom and beauty) we would have to see him now as something of the very opposite. That is not saying stupid, but in regards to wisdom his would be totally corrupted by hate. At best terms like crafty, cunning ...etc would seem to apply more than being wise or "full of wisdom". But even in his pre-fall state, there is nothing to suggest Satan has Perfect Knowledge.As to why being "full of wisdom" does not include Perfect knowledge we could site several references to real people being said to be "full of knowledge" that did not exhibit perfect knowledge of the future (Joshua for one). A more fundamental reason goes to the meaning of Divine, which Satan even in his pre-fall state was not Divine. Perfect Knowledge in reference to the Divine includes a perfect view of all time from beginning to end, known even before creation began. We grant that the Divine Knowledge could on occasion be given to others. But where we see this (visions, prophets...etc) the result never approaches the Perfection of God's Knowledge;it is always somewhat blurry and it is always momentary, glimpses and not a on-going window into the Future. If Satan has any such powers we could suppose that it would be better than a prophet's or that of visions, but imperfect none the less. And as his fall corrupts his wisdom, we would have to say it clouds any such ability if we grant he had some degree of it before his fall.So even though God said Satan was very smart and pretty before his fall, there is no reason for us to assume that "full of wisdom" means he is as smart as God or that in any aspect like foreknowlege that his powers approach God's. Satan is not a Divine Being.My apologoies for others reading all this in this thread, as it was not my intent to highjack it from the much higher topic of Jesus's Nature.
Ezekiel 28 is all about Satan.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
The King of Tyre in these verses is real and the language used reflects how great his fall was. Speaking in pre-fall terms in regards to the King is an allegory and symbolic. And yes the same could be said of Satan or anyone so in that sense the King is a type for the anti-Christ and for Satan himself. Like most passages there can be several ways of looking at the message.My point however as stated, was that either way we look at the verses in Ezekiel we go off topic to switch from speaking of Jesus Nature to Satan's nature. But as you insist;The question was why God said Satan was full of wisdom (and beauty) in Ezekiel if Satan does not have Perfect Knowledge (my claim was Satan cannot see the future as God can and perhaps was unsure if Jesus was really God before the temptation). First we must acknowledge that Satan is very powerful. He also once held a very lofty position, if not above all other angels at least very near so. Ezekiel's reference is speaking of the King's status BEFORE his fall and applied to Satan, wisdom here would refer to before Satan fell. But Satan fell from that status. The depth of any such fall is porportional to how "high" one was. So we can conclude no angel and probably no other being could fall as far as Satan has. So whatever we say Satan once was (full of wisdom and beauty) we would have to see him now as something of the very opposite. That is not saying stupid, but in regards to wisdom his would be totally corrupted by hate. At best terms like crafty, cunning ...etc would seem to apply more than being wise or "full of wisdom". But even in his pre-fall state, there is nothing to suggest Satan has Perfect Knowledge.As to why being "full of wisdom" does not include Perfect knowledge we could site several references to real people being said to be "full of knowledge" that did not exhibit perfect knowledge of the future (Joshua for one). A more fundamental reason goes to the meaning of Divine, which Satan even in his pre-fall state was not Divine. Perfect Knowledge in reference to the Divine includes a perfect view of all time from beginning to end, known even before creation began. We grant that the Divine Knowledge could on occasion be given to others. But where we see this (visions, prophets...etc) the result never approaches the Perfection of God's Knowledge;it is always somewhat blurry and it is always momentary, glimpses and not a on-going window into the Future. If Satan has any such powers we could suppose that it would be better than a prophet's or that of visions, but imperfect none the less. And as his fall corrupts his wisdom, we would have to say it clouds any such ability if we grant he had some degree of it before his fall.So even though God said Satan was very smart and pretty before his fall, there is no reason for us to assume that "full of wisdom" means he is as smart as God or that in any aspect like foreknowlege that his powers approach God's. Satan is not a Divine Being.My apologoies for others reading all this in this thread, as it was not my intent to highjack it from the much higher topic of Jesus's Nature.
(DrBubbaLove;36389)
The King of Tyre in these verses is real and the language used reflects how great his fall was. Speaking in pre-fall terms in regards to the King is an allegory and symbolic. And yes the same could be said of Satan or anyone so in that sense the King is a type for the anti-Christ and for Satan himself. Like most passages there can be several ways of looking at the message.My point however as stated, was that either way we look at the verses in Ezekiel we go off topic to switch from speaking of Jesus Nature to Satan's nature. But as you insist;The question was why God said Satan was full of wisdom (and beauty) in Ezekiel if Satan does not have Perfect Knowledge (my claim was Satan cannot see the future as God can and perhaps was unsure if Jesus was really God before the temptation). First we must acknowledge that Satan is very powerful. He also once held a very lofty position, if not above all other angels at least very near so. Ezekiel's reference is speaking of the King's status BEFORE his fall and applied to Satan, wisdom here would refer to before Satan fell. But Satan fell from that status. The depth of any such fall is porportional to how "high" one was. So we can conclude no angel and probably no other being could fall as far as Satan has. So whatever we say Satan once was (full of wisdom and beauty) we would have to see him now as something of the very opposite. That is not saying stupid, but in regards to wisdom his would be totally corrupted by hate. At best terms like crafty, cunning ...etc would seem to apply more than being wise or "full of wisdom". But even in his pre-fall state, there is nothing to suggest Satan has Perfect Knowledge.As to why being "full of wisdom" does not include Perfect knowledge we could site several references to real people being said to be "full of knowledge" that did not exhibit perfect knowledge of the future (Joshua for one). A more fundamental reason goes to the meaning of Divine, which Satan even in his pre-fall state was not Divine. Perfect Knowledge in reference to the Divine includes a perfect view of all time from beginning to end, known even before creation began. We grant that the Divine Knowledge could on occasion be given to others. But where we see this (visions, prophets...etc) the result never approaches the Perfection of God's Knowledge;it is always somewhat blurry and it is always momentary, glimpses and not a on-going window into the Future. If Satan has any such powers we could suppose that it would be better than a prophet's or that of visions, but imperfect none the less. And as his fall corrupts his wisdom, we would have to say it clouds any such ability if we grant he had some degree of it before his fall.So even though God said Satan was very smart and pretty before his fall, there is no reason for us to assume that "full of wisdom" means he is as smart as God or that in any aspect like foreknowlege that his powers approach God's. Satan is not a Divine Being.My apologoies for others reading all this in this thread, as it was not my intent to highjack it from the much higher topic of Jesus's Nature.
*sigh* As you wish. Satan has every wisdom of God, (Ezekiel 28:12) and we know that all wisdom cometh from God. (Proverbs 2:6, Proverbs 21:30) He fully knew well that he tempted Christ, (Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 4:1-13) and he fully knew well, the plan of God, and He is so great at twisting scriptures as he is quite easily to disguise himself as an angel of light (II Corinthians 11:14) He wants to be God. (Isaiah 14:13-14, Ezekiel 28:2, Ezekiel 28:6, II Thessalonians 2:4) He is the master deceiver of this world. (Revelation 12:9)Don't ever down grade Satan when it comes to wisdom. He is wiser than Daniel and all of us. (Ezekiel 28:3) Because Satan claim to be God, he shall die. (Ezekiel 28:18) Let no man deceive you. (I Corinthians 3:18, I Corinthians 6:9, I Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6, II Thessalonians 2:3, I John 3:7)JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
The King of Tyre in these verses is real and the language used reflects how great his fall was. Speaking in pre-fall terms in regards to the King is an allegory and symbolic. And yes the same could be said of Satan or anyone so in that sense the King is a type for the anti-Christ and for Satan himself. Like most passages there can be several ways of looking at the message.My point however as stated, was that either way we look at the verses in Ezekiel we go off topic to switch from speaking of Jesus Nature to Satan's nature. But as you insist;The question was why God said Satan was full of wisdom (and beauty) in Ezekiel if Satan does not have Perfect Knowledge (my claim was Satan cannot see the future as God can and perhaps was unsure if Jesus was really God before the temptation). First we must acknowledge that Satan is very powerful. He also once held a very lofty position, if not above all other angels at least very near so. Ezekiel's reference is speaking of the King's status BEFORE his fall and applied to Satan, wisdom here would refer to before Satan fell. But Satan fell from that status. The depth of any such fall is porportional to how "high" one was. So we can conclude no angel and probably no other being could fall as far as Satan has. So whatever we say Satan once was (full of wisdom and beauty) we would have to see him now as something of the very opposite. That is not saying stupid, but in regards to wisdom his would be totally corrupted by hate. At best terms like crafty, cunning ...etc would seem to apply more than being wise or "full of wisdom". But even in his pre-fall state, there is nothing to suggest Satan has Perfect Knowledge.As to why being "full of wisdom" does not include Perfect knowledge we could site several references to real people being said to be "full of knowledge" that did not exhibit perfect knowledge of the future (Joshua for one). A more fundamental reason goes to the meaning of Divine, which Satan even in his pre-fall state was not Divine. Perfect Knowledge in reference to the Divine includes a perfect view of all time from beginning to end, known even before creation began. We grant that the Divine Knowledge could on occasion be given to others. But where we see this (visions, prophets...etc) the result never approaches the Perfection of God's Knowledge;it is always somewhat blurry and it is always momentary, glimpses and not a on-going window into the Future. If Satan has any such powers we could suppose that it would be better than a prophet's or that of visions, but imperfect none the less. And as his fall corrupts his wisdom, we would have to say it clouds any such ability if we grant he had some degree of it before his fall.So even though God said Satan was very smart and pretty before his fall, there is no reason for us to assume that "full of wisdom" means he is as smart as God or that in any aspect like foreknowlege that his powers approach God's. Satan is not a Divine Being.My apologoies for others reading all this in this thread, as it was not my intent to highjack it from the much higher topic of Jesus's Nature.
*sigh* As you wish. Satan has every wisdom of God, (Ezekiel 28:12) and we know that all wisdom cometh from God. (Proverbs 2:6, Proverbs 21:30) He fully knew well that he tempted Christ, (Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 4:1-13) and he fully knew well, the plan of God, and He is so great at twisting scriptures as he is quite easily to disguise himself as an angel of light (II Corinthians 11:14) He wants to be God. (Isaiah 14:13-14, Ezekiel 28:2, Ezekiel 28:6, II Thessalonians 2:4) He is the master deceiver of this world. (Revelation 12:9)Don't ever down grade Satan when it comes to wisdom. He is wiser than Daniel and all of us. (Ezekiel 28:3) Because Satan claim to be God, he shall die. (Ezekiel 28:18) Let no man deceive you. (I Corinthians 3:18, I Corinthians 6:9, I Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6, II Thessalonians 2:3, I John 3:7)JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
LOL you are the one that wanted to talk about Satan in a thread on Jesus Nature! You crack me up Jag.Did you not read my post where it says Satan is powerful, cunning, sly,...etc and saying he does not have PERFECT KNOWLEDGE is not saying he is stupid. He is certainly capable of out smarting us.Since you don't want to start your own thread to talk about your favorite topic here, Satan, why don't you ask the OP or a mod to change the title of this one?
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