Did Jesus say He Was God?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, blessedhope.

Not precisely; He said He WAS God, "WAS" being the operative word! However, at best, He was called "the SON of God" during His lifetime. He always called Himself "the Son of MAN," a Hebraism (ha-ben adam) meaning "the Son of Adam," "the true Human."

As "Jesus," He was always human (and will remain the true Human for eternity). As the "Word," He WAS God. It's really not that difficult; it's just being honest with the fact that AS A HUMAN BEING, He now has LIMITATIONS! He is now the Go-Between for us! "The Mediator between God and man!" He is no longer fully God, BUT, He is the SON of God. And, as such, He is God's REPRESENTATIVE, God's KING, God's SON! It's really just a matter of PERSPECTIVE:

See, you look up to God and see the Son next to the Father with the Holy Spirit of God within you. So, you see/sense the "Trinity." I'm looking at the relationships from the SIDE. I see the Father HIGHER THAN the Son and COMPLETELY HOLY AND APART from humanity, but the Son at the APEX of a solid triangle (or "solid upside-down ice cream cone") representing all the myriad relationships of humanity below the Son to the Son, with the Holy Spirit of God engulfing those who are His own. ALL those who are His PRAY to the Father THROUGH the Mediator, the Son! We pray IN THE NAME or ON THE AUTHORITY of the Son, Yeshua` the Messiah! We ask what we desire with His permission and as though we were the Son, and God grants His answers back to us as though we were His Son, and we ARE sons (and daughters) of God in and through the SON!

Now, see how this all makes sense within these verses:
Matthew 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power (Greek: exousia = "authority; right") is given unto me in heaven (Greek: en ouranoo = "in [the] sky") and in earth (Greek: epi [tees] gees = "upon [the] earth").

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world (Greek: aioonos = "age"). Amen.
KJV
Ephesians 1:15-23

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope (confident anticipation) of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought (worked) in Christ (the Messiah), when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places (Greek: epouraniois = "in above the skies," i.e. "in the New Jerusalem"; see Hebrews 12:22),


21 Far above (LITERALLY) all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world (Greek: en too aiooni toutoo = "in the age this-one"), but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

KJV
Philippians 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`):

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God (the Father) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name (an authority; a right; a privilege) which is above every name (authority; right; privilege):
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

KJV

By the way, the word meaning "to worship" (Greek: proskuneoo) means "to BEND THE KNEE to"; "to FALL PROSTRATE before." It most assuredly does NOT mean to stand there with your hands raised and your eyes closed or looking longingly at the rafters, swaying back and forth, like you were in some sort of trance of euphoria!

When a subject meets the king or queen for the first time, what does the subject do? HE OR SHE BOWS!!! THAT'S what it means to "WORSHIP" the Messiah Yeshua`! AFTER ALL, HE SHALL BE KING OF ISRAEL AND OF US, HIS SUBJECTS! HE SHALL LITERALLY BECOME KING OF THE WORLD, THE WORLD EMPEROR!
John 5:19-30

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
KJV

Again, remember: the focus of this next passage is on the Resurrections.
1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (in the Messiah) shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: (Resurrection 0) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (Resurrection 1, the resurrection of life) they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 (Resurrection 2, a general resurrection which includes the resurrection of damnation) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God (the Father) may be all in all.

KJV
Revelation 20:4-15

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This (verse 4) is the first resurrection (the resurrection of life).

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God (second resurrection, which includes the resurrection of damnation); and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

KJV

Understand my point of view?
 

Deborah_

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2015
901
855
93
Swansea, Wales
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
It is often pointed out that Jesus never stood up and said plainly, “I am God.” (But if He had, what would that prove? Nothing!) He was obviously a man: He was born, grew up, ate, slept, and felt pain, sadness and fear. Finally He died. But somehow His disciples gradually became convinced that He was more than just a man…

For one thing, He had extraordinary power over sickness, demons and the forces of nature (e.g. Luke 8:22-56). He didn’t have to pray to God in order to obtain healing or deliverance for people – He could achieve these things, apparently without effort, by Himself. He was even able to give life to the dead – something that is God’s prerogative alone (Deuteronomy 32:39). And He went around forgiving sins (e.g. Luke 5:18-25; 7:36-50). The Jewish theologians picked up on this at once: only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).


In His teaching, He made no explicit claims to divinity – but He made many statements that, to Jewish ears, amounted to the same thing. He claimed authority over divinely given laws and institutions like the Sabbath (Luke 6:5). He claimed to be the final Judge of mankind (Psalm 9:7,8; Matthew 25:31,32). He made the same promises to His disciples that God had made to His people under the Old Covenant. (Deuteronomy 31:8; Matthew 28:20) And He took well-known Old Testament pictures of Yahweh and applied them to Himself: for example, He claimed to be the Shepherd of God’s people (Psalm 23; Ezekiel 34). This conversation (John 10:1-30) ended with the Jews attempting to stone Him for blasphemy (John 10:31-33). Finally, the night before He died He told His disciples that He was the embodiment of the Father (John 14:7-10).

https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/the-trinity/3-is-jesus-god/
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, Deborah_.

Deborah_ said:
It is often pointed out that Jesus never stood up and said plainly, “I am God.” (But if He had, what would that prove? Nothing!) He was obviously a man: He was born, grew up, ate, slept, and felt pain, sadness and fear. Finally He died. But somehow His disciples gradually became convinced that He was more than just a man…

For one thing, He had extraordinary power over sickness, demons and the forces of nature (e.g. Luke 8:22-56). He didn’t have to pray to God in order to obtain healing or deliverance for people – He could achieve these things, apparently without effort, by Himself. He was even able to give life to the dead – something that is God’s prerogative alone (Deuteronomy 32:39). And He went around forgiving sins (e.g. Luke 5:18-25; 7:36-50). The Jewish theologians picked up on this at once: only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).


In His teaching, He made no explicit claims to divinity – but He made many statements that, to Jewish ears, amounted to the same thing. He claimed authority over divinely given laws and institutions like the Sabbath (Luke 6:5). He claimed to be the final Judge of mankind (Psalm 9:7,8; Matthew 25:31,32). He made the same promises to His disciples that God had made to His people under the Old Covenant. (Deuteronomy 31:8; Matthew 28:20) And He took well-known Old Testament pictures of Yahweh and applied them to Himself: for example, He claimed to be the Shepherd of God’s people (Psalm 23; Ezekiel 34). This conversation (John 10:1-30) ended with the Jews attempting to stone Him for blasphemy (John 10:31-33). Finally, the night before He died He told His disciples that He was the embodiment of the Father (John 14:7-10).

https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/the-trinity/3-is-jesus-god/
Ummm... As per Yeshua` (Jesus) HIMSELF,

John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
KJV

So, when you say, "He didn’t have to pray to God in order to obtain healing or deliverance for people – He could achieve these things, apparently without effort, by Himself," that's not entirely accurate. First, He was praying to His Father ALL THE TIME! Second, He did ONLY those things that His Father wanted Him to do, ONLY those things that would please His Father.

Matthew 9:2-8
2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
KJV


Just a hint, it would be easier for Yeshua` to say "thy sins be forgiven thee" because there wouldn't be any visible proof that it happened. However, if He said, "Arise and walk," then if the man didn't rise and walk, there would be positive proof that Yeshua` was a charlatan. While the sins being forgiven would be the tougher feat to make, we're talking about a SHOW OF PROOF, and to say to a person, "Get up and walk," when he or she didn't have the ability to get up, let alone walk, and that person DID BOTH get up and walk, would show UNDENIABLE PROOF that it was God's power!
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Mat_10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven

Joh_16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

He claimed to be equal to God, never said He was God
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen
B

brakelite

Guest
1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
 

Deborah_

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2015
901
855
93
Swansea, Wales
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Deborah_.


Ummm... As per Yeshua` (Jesus) HIMSELF,

John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
KJV

So, when you say, "He didn’t have to pray to God in order to obtain healing or deliverance for people – He could achieve these things, apparently without effort, by Himself," that's not entirely accurate. First, He was praying to His Father ALL THE TIME! Second, He did ONLY those things that His Father wanted Him to do, ONLY those things that would please His Father.
Indeed - Jesus was in constant communication with His Father and did only what His Father wanted (He did not heal everyone, for example, at the Pool of Bethesda). But when He healed, He healed by His own power, whereas the most we ordinary mortals can do is ask for God to heal.
Similarly, when we exorcise demons we have to do so "in the name of Jesus" - we have no authority of our own, only a derived authority. But Jesus needed no such formulae; His word was effective on its own.
 

Dan57

Active Member
Sep 25, 2012
510
224
43
Illinois
Faith
Country
United States
Yes... When the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness, Jesus told him; "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4:7). That answer directly implies that the devil wasn't just tempting the man Jesus, but God himself... jmo
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Jesus told him; "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4:7). That answer directly implies that the devil wasn't just tempting the man Jesus, but God himself.
You seemed to have missed the whole crux of the matter.

Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Now if Jesus had done as the devil had asked, it would of being Jesus tempting God, as He would have being asking God to prove Himself, He was also asking Jesus to prove whom He was, and he would have none of it.
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Dan57 said:
Yes... When the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness, Jesus told him; "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4:7). That answer directly implies that the devil wasn't just tempting the man Jesus, but God himself... jmo
Apparently, you did not consider the whole account, for after Satan had stationed Jesus on the battlement of the temple, Satan quoted from Psalms 91 and said: "If you are a son of God, throw yourself down , for it is written: ' He (God) will give a command concerning you, ' and ' they (the angels) will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone' ".(Matt 4:5, 6)

And the Scripture at Matthew 4:7 does not say "tempt" (Greek periazo meaning to "to test...to entice") but rather "test" (Greek ekpeirazo meaning "to test thoroughly"), for Jesus said that "It is written: You must not put Jehovah your God to the test". James wrote that "with evil things God cannot be tried ("tried", Greek apeirastos meaning "not temptable") or be tempted.(James 1:13)

This brings up a couple of questions (1) Why did Satan call Jesus a "son of God" if he knew that is God ? (2) How could Jesus be God and yet need angels if he were to jump from temple battlement ? Many fail to seriously consider the full account, not using logic and reason to come to understand just who Jesus is.

By Jesus own words, he said that "the Father is greater than I am".(John 14:28) And Jesus readily acknowledged that "concerning that day and hour (when the great tribulation will begin, Matt 24:21) nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father".(Matt 24:36)

And when Jesus responded to the Jews as to how he was so knowledgable of the Scriptures, he told them: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His (not my own) will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality".(John 7:14-17) Jesus clearly distinguished himself from God by the Greek word "e" (meaning "or") that is "a primary particle of distinction between two connected terms".(Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible)

Over at John 8, Jesus tells the obstinate Jews: "After you have lifted up the Son of man (by putting him to death on a torture stake), then you will know that I am he (the promised Messiah) and that I speak nothing of my own initiative, but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things. And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him".(John 8:28, 29)

This raises several questions (1) How could Jesus be God and yet never speak anything of his own initiative ? (2) How could Jesus be God and yet be taught, since the Scriptures clearly show that God is not taught by anyone (see Isa 40:13, 14) (3) How could Jesus be God and yet say that he has never been abandoned by the Father, that he has ' always done the things pleasing to the Father ' since God has to please no one ?(see Dan 4:35)

And we all know that Jesus spoke the truth, never in any way telling even a "white lie".(John 8:40) So how could Jesus be God and yet tell Nicodemus: "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son (or unique Son, Greek monogenes that means "only-born, i.e. sole"), so that everyone exercising faith might not be destroyed but have everlasting life" ?(John 3:16)

At Luke 7, the Greek word monogenes is used with regard to the widow of Nain whose "only-begotten son" was being carried out for burial.(Luke 7:12) This was her only son, so likewise Jesus is God's "only-begotten Son", the only one directly created by God. All other life came through Jesus as God's "master worker"".(Prov 8:30, Hebrew ’a·mohn meaning "skilled i.e. an architect")

Jesus could not say that he was the "only-begotten Son" if indeed he was God ! That would have been a lie ! How could he say that ' God gave his only-begotten Son ' if Jesus is God ? This would have meant that he gave himself, but that is not what Jesus said nor what the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus".(1 Tim 2:5)

This could not be any more plain, but despite all the evidence, many will still contend that Jesus is God, becoming like the Jewish religious leaders when Stephen gave a historical lesson starting with Abraham that led down to Jesus as the promised Messiah, with these Jewish religious leaders becoming infuriated and unreasonable and stoned him to death.(Acts 7:51-60)
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, Deborah_

Deborah_ said:
Indeed - Jesus was in constant communication with His Father and did only what His Father wanted (He did not heal everyone, for example, at the Pool of Bethesda). But when He healed, He healed by His own power, whereas the most we ordinary mortals can do is ask for God to heal.
Similarly, when we exorcise demons we have to do so "in the name of Jesus" - we have no authority of our own, only a derived authority. But Jesus needed no such formulae; His word was effective on its own.
No, He healed by GOD'S power, the power of His FATHER!
 

Dan57

Active Member
Sep 25, 2012
510
224
43
Illinois
Faith
Country
United States
mjrhealth said:
You seemed to have missed the whole crux of the matter.

Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Now if Jesus had done as the devil had asked, it would of being Jesus tempting God, as He would have being asking God to prove Himself, He was also asking Jesus to prove whom He was, and he would have none of it.
So its your contention that Jesus was just a man and not divine? "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33). Were the Jews wrong? "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us" (Matthew 1:23). "And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!(John 20:28). If Thomas was wrong, why didn't Jesus correct him?

Guestman said:
Apparently, you did not consider the whole account, for after Satan had stationed Jesus on the battlement of the temple, Satan quoted from Psalms 91 and said: "If you are a son of God, throw yourself down , for it is written: ' He (God) will give a command concerning you, ' and ' they (the angels) will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone' ".(Matt 4:5, 6)

And the Scripture at Matthew 4:7 does not say "tempt" (Greek periazo meaning to "to test...to entice") but rather "test" (Greek ekpeirazo meaning "to test thoroughly"), for Jesus said that "It is written: You must not put Jehovah your God to the test". James wrote that "with evil things God cannot be tried ("tried", Greek apeirastos meaning "not temptable") or be tempted.(James 1:13)

This brings up a couple of questions (1) Why did Satan call Jesus a "son of God" if he knew that is God ? (2) How could Jesus be God and yet need angels if he were to jump from temple battlement ? Many fail to seriously consider the full account, not using logic and reason to come to understand just who Jesus is.

By Jesus own words, he said that "the Father is greater than I am".(John 14:28) And Jesus readily acknowledged that "concerning that day and hour (when the great tribulation will begin, Matt 24:21) nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father".(Matt 24:36)

And when Jesus responded to the Jews as to how he was so knowledgable of the Scriptures, he told them: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His (not my own) will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality".(John 7:14-17) Jesus clearly distinguished himself from God by the Greek word "e" (meaning "or") that is "a primary particle of distinction between two connected terms".(Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible)

Over at John 8, Jesus tells the obstinate Jews: "After you have lifted up the Son of man (by putting him to death on a torture stake), then you will know that I am he (the promised Messiah) and that I speak nothing of my own initiative, but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things. And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him".(John 8:28, 29)

This raises several questions (1) How could Jesus be God and yet never speak anything of his own initiative ? (2) How could Jesus be God and yet be taught, since the Scriptures clearly show that God is not taught by anyone (see Isa 40:13, 14) (3) How could Jesus be God and yet say that he has never been abandoned by the Father, that he has ' always done the things pleasing to the Father ' since God has to please no one ?(see Dan 4:35)

And we all know that Jesus spoke the truth, never in any way telling even a "white lie".(John 8:40) So how could Jesus be God and yet tell Nicodemus: "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son (or unique Son, Greek monogenes that means "only-born, i.e. sole"), so that everyone exercising faith might not be destroyed but have everlasting life" ?(John 3:16)

At Luke 7, the Greek word monogenes is used with regard to the widow of Nain whose "only-begotten son" was being carried out for burial.(Luke 7:12) This was her only son, so likewise Jesus is God's "only-begotten Son", the only one directly created by God. All other life came through Jesus as God's "master worker"".(Prov 8:30, Hebrew ’a·mohn meaning "skilled i.e. an architect")

Jesus could not say that he was the "only-begotten Son" if indeed he was God ! That would have been a lie ! How could he say that ' God gave his only-begotten Son ' if Jesus is God ? This would have meant that he gave himself, but that is not what Jesus said nor what the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus".(1 Tim 2:5)

This could not be any more plain, but despite all the evidence, many will still contend that Jesus is God, becoming like the Jewish religious leaders when Stephen gave a historical lesson starting with Abraham that led down to Jesus as the promised Messiah, with these Jewish religious leaders becoming infuriated and unreasonable and stoned him to death.(Acts 7:51-60)
"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30)... "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (John 14:9). "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6). Why did the prophet refer to the coming Savior as Mighty God and Everlasting Father?

If Jesus was just a mortal man, he wouldn't have the authority to save anyone, making Christianity nothing but a fluke.. If Christ was not one with God, then he's not the only begotten Son of God. As Islam claims, Jesus was just another prophet.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
So its your contention that Jesus was just a man and not divine?
I dont say anyone saying that, I think Stan calls those comments red herrings, though I never actually seeing a red herring. I gues you never figured it out. Jesus is Gods word, see Gods word was always with Him ever since the beginning, just like the day when I was born my voice was with me. I have a son whom sounds just like me, and when either of us answer the phone we are often asked , which of us is doing teh talking. And so it is with Jesus and God, Jesus was with God just as He said, Before Abraham was I AM. See He existed as Gods word since than, when He was born of Mary by the spirit , born of God not of Men, ie it was the Holy Spirit from God that planted the seed in Mary not the Sperm(seed) of Man, so He is divine but like us, walked in the flesh but unlike most christians, Led by the Spirti not teh flesh. Even the bible declares it.

Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh_1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Rev_19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Really is not hard when you ask teh one who is teh truth Jesus.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Jesus is, and always was, the only begotten Son of the Father. Not created, as were the angels, nor made from the dust, as are we, but begotten of the Father as His natural Son. In the pre-incarnate Jesus was all the fullness of the Godhead, which he inherited from His Father. That fullness He laid aside to become man.
God said to Moses of Christ..."Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared, Beware of Him, and obey His voice, do not provoke Him, for He will not prdon your transgressions, for My name is in Him." Exodus 23:21

This expression, 'my name is in him', to an ancient Hebrew would have meant He is an heir, a descendant, the one who will carry the Father's legacy. (Gen.48:16; Isa. 66:22; Deut. 25:6,7; 2Sam.14:7.) Of Christ Paul said, "being so much better than the angels, He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". Heb.1:4

"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". Isa. 9:6

Throughout the NT Jesus and the Father are referenced separately...the Father referenced as God, Jesus referenced as His Son. Nowhere is Jesus referenced as God in the same sense as the Father. Yet as Son we understand His equality, because of what He as a Son has inherited from His Father. We may recognize Jesus as God because He was begotten in the express image of His Father, receiving all the attributes of deity just as my son received from me all the attributes of humanity.
"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself". John 5:26 "All power is given unto Me", Jesus said. The words Father and God are used interchangeably throughout scripture, there always being a sense of separateness between God and Son. We must always, I believe, honor the Father and Son equally, yet be cognizant of the fact that the Father is greater than the Son, for the simple reason He is the Father, and the source of all things, including all power, life, authority. And the time will come when Jesus once again, after delivering the kingdom back into the Father's hands, will be once again subordinate to the Father.
"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom every family in heaven and earth is named". Eph. 3:14,15.

"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the Father of mercies and God of all comfort." 2Cor. 1:2,3
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shabbat shalom, Dan57.

Dan57 said:
So its your contention that Jesus was just a man and not divine? "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33). Were the Jews wrong? "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us" (Matthew 1:23). "And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!(John 20:28). If Thomas was wrong, why didn't Jesus correct him?


"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30)... "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (John 14:9). "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6). Why did the prophet refer to the coming Savior as Mighty God and Everlasting Father?

If Jesus was just a mortal man, he wouldn't have the authority to save anyone, making Christianity nothing but a fluke.. If Christ was not one with God, then he's not the only begotten Son of God. As Islam claims, Jesus was just another prophet.
Yeshua` IS divine! He was the Word who was God before His incarnation, and He is the Son of God after His incarnation. BUT, there has to be a way to show that He is a DIFFERENT PERSON from His Father! They are not so "one" that you can't tell the difference between them! You can see it in His teaching,Yeshua` doing the talking (hence the red lettering):

Matthew 6:5-15
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
KJV


Yeshua` said, "When you pray, say, 'Our Father which art in heaven,...'." Thus, the SON told His disciples (and us as well) to pray to the FATHER!

One of the clearest ways to see the difference between the Father and the Son is found in His death:

On the night before, He prayed...

Luke 22:42
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
KJV

David prophesied about the words of the Messiah to come:

Psalm 22:1-11
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
KJV

And, on the day that Yeshua` died, He quoted these words:

Matthew 27:45-54
45 From noon until three o’clock in the afternoon, all the Land was covered with darkness. 46 At about three, Yeshua uttered a loud cry, “Eli! Eli! L’mah sh’vaktani? (My God! My God! Why have you deserted me?)” 47 On hearing this, some of the bystanders said, “He’s calling for Eliyahu.” 48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, soaked it in vinegar, put it on a stick and gave it to him to drink. 49 The rest said, “Wait! Let’s see if Eliyahu comes and rescues him.” 50 But Yeshua, again crying out in a loud voice, yielded up his spirit.

51 At that moment the parokhet in the Temple was ripped in two from top to bottom; and there was an earthquake, with rocks splitting apart. 52 Also the graves were opened, and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life; 53 and after Yeshua rose, they came out of the graves and went into the holy city, where many people saw them. 54 When the Roman officer and those with him who were keeping watch over Yeshua saw the earthquake and what was happening, they were awestruck and said, “He really was a son of God.”
CJB


Mark 15:33-39
33 At noon, darkness covered the whole Land until three o’clock in the afternoon. 34 At three, he uttered a loud cry, “Elohi! Elohi! L’mah sh’vaktani?” (which means, “My God! My God! Why have you deserted me?”) 35 On hearing this, some of the bystanders said, “Look! He’s calling for Eliyahu!” 36 One ran and soaked a sponge in vinegar, put it on a stick and gave it to him to drink. “Wait!” he said, “Let’s see if Eliyahu will come and take him down.” 37 But Yeshua let out a loud cry and gave up his spirit. 38 And the parokhet in the Temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 When the Roman officer who stood facing him saw the way he gave up his spirit, he said, “This man really was a son of God!”
CJB

"Eliy" is the combination of "El" meaning "God" and the personal pronoun ending, "-iy," meaning "my." They thought He was crying out to "Eliyahu" ("Elijah") because the name means "YHWH [is] my God."

(By the way, as a Roman officer and going back to the Greek, this man wasn't acknowledging that there was one God or that Yeshua` was the one Son of that God, but was acknowledging that something was indeed different about THIS man! He was saying, "This man really was a son of a god!" and was probably thinking about his own pantheon of gods when he said it! He was familiar with the myths of Hercules and Perseus, and probably recognized Yeshua` to be a demigod like them.)

We also read this in prophecies about Him:

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV


Thus, the Son was the Sacrifice and the Father was the One who bruised Him!

Even today, He is different from His Father:

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
KJV


THAT'S what we must not lose! THAT'S why the distinction must be maintained!
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shabbat shalom, brakelite.

brakelite said:
Jesus is, and always was, the only begotten Son of the Father. Not created, as were the angels, nor made from the dust, as are we, but begotten of the Father as His natural Son. In the pre-incarnate Jesus was all the fullness of the Godhead, which he inherited from His Father. That fullness He laid aside to become man.
God said to Moses of Christ..."Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared, Beware of Him, and obey His voice, do not provoke Him, for He will not prdon your transgressions, for My name is in Him." Exodus 23:21

This expression, 'my name is in him', to an ancient Hebrew would have meant He is an heir, a descendant, the one who will carry the Father's legacy. (Gen.48:16; Isa. 66:22; Deut. 25:6,7; 2Sam.14:7.) Of Christ Paul said, "being so much better than the angels, He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". Heb.1:4

"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". Isa. 9:6

Throughout the NT Jesus and the Father are referenced separately...the Father referenced as God, Jesus referenced as His Son. Nowhere is Jesus referenced as God in the same sense as the Father. Yet as Son we understand His equality, because of what He as a Son has inherited from His Father. We may recognize Jesus as God because He was begotten in the express image of His Father, receiving all the attributes of deity just as my son received from me all the attributes of humanity.
"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself". John 5:26 "All power is given unto Me", Jesus said. The words Father and God are used interchangeably throughout scripture, there always being a sense of separateness between God and Son. We must always, I believe, honor the Father and Son equally, yet be cognizant of the fact that the Father is greater than the Son, for the simple reason He is the Father, and the source of all things, including all power, life, authority. And the time will come when Jesus once again, after delivering the kingdom back into the Father's hands, will be once again subordinate to the Father.
"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom every family in heaven and earth is named". Eph. 3:14,15.

"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the Father of mercies and God of all comfort." 2Cor. 1:2,3
NO! Don't be duped by the rhetoric of the Catholic Church with that "eternal Sonship" nonsense! The Word BECAME the Son! (John 1:14, 32-34) There is no "pre-incarnate Jesus" He was not named "Jesus" until just before He was conceived!

Luke 1:30-35
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
KJV


Why would you say otherwise than to accomodate the theological position?
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Retrobyter said:
Shabbat shalom, brakelite.


NO! Don't be duped by the rhetoric of the Catholic Church with that "eternal Sonship" nonsense! The Word BECAME the Son! (John 1:14, 32-34) There is no "pre-incarnate Jesus" He was not named "Jesus" until just before He was conceived!

Luke 1:30-35
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
KJV


Why would you say otherwise than to accomodate the theological position?
Please, do not mistake what I presented with any Catholic "eternal Sonship" tradition. John 3:16 tells us that God gave us His Son. In that He gave us His Son, I must accept that God had a Son to give. The pre-incarnate Son of God may not have been called Jesus, ( I believe Michael) but He was most assuredly there before creation, and was even then the Son
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
) but He was most assuredly there before creation, and was even then the Son
This is what happens when people wont take things to God.

Jesus is Gods word come in teh flesh. What is Gods word.??

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. and a bit more from Jesus Himself

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Gods word is Spirit,this bit

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

See Gods word was always with Him from teh very beginning, thats why Jesus could proclaim, Before Abraham was. I am. Because He was , He was still spirit, a part of God that when spoken creates. When Mary accepted what teh Angel spoke, Jesus was conceived just as the Angel had said, teh spirit of God has now created life, just as it says, in Marys womb, that Creation now the son of God, is called ,Yeshua, Jesus. He is just as teh bible says, Gods word come in the flesh, the spirirt of God in the flesh of a man. Only something God could ever do. isnt he marvelous.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
mjrhealth said:
This is what happens when people wont take things to God.

Jesus is Gods word come in teh flesh. What is Gods word.??

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. and a bit more from Jesus Himself

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Gods word is Spirit,this bit

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

See Gods word was always with Him from teh very beginning, thats why Jesus could proclaim, Before Abraham was. I am. Because He was , He was still spirit, a part of God that when spoken creates. When Mary accepted what teh Angel spoke, Jesus was conceived just as the Angel had said, teh spirit of God has now created life, just as it says, in Marys womb, that Creation now the son of God, is called ,Yeshua, Jesus. He is just as teh bible says, Gods word come in the flesh, the spirirt of God in the flesh of a man. Only something God could ever do. isnt he marvelous.
I did not say that the pre-incarnate Christ was a physical being...but He was a being. It was He who spoke to Moses upon Sinai...it was He who spoke with Abraham overlooking Sodom...it was He who walked in the garden with Adam and Eve...it was He who brought Israel out of Egypt and into the promised land...and it was He who laid aside His divinity, His omnipresence, His omniscience, (see Phil. 2:5-9)and became a helpless babe, born to a human mum thus forever now a part of the human race. Yes, I agree He and His Father are marvelous.
Christ was begotten twice...the first time before creation, the second time as man. He died once. We also, if we are born twice, will die only once. "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:17 I believe Jesus is the Son of God, and that God gave His Son to become a babe in Bethlehem and die that we might live. In believing that, I believe God had a Son to give.
Col. 1:15-19? Who is this speaking of? And Heb.1:2? Who is that speaking of?
1 John4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
The above does not say that God sent His ....to become a Son, but that He sent His Son.