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Discernment

Discussion in 'The Church Forum' started by VictoryinJesus, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Job 15:34-35
    [34] For the congregation of hypocrites shall be desolate, and fire shall consume the tabernacles of bribery. [35] They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity, and their belly prepareth deceit.


    Matthew 15:7-9
    [7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


    Matthew 16:2-4
    [2] He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. [3] And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? [4] A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.


    Luke 12:54-56
    [54] And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is. [55] And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass. [56] Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?


    "Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?" This verse kept me awake last night. Jesus tells them (hypocrites) they can discern the physical with no problem, but they can not discern the Spiritual otherwise they would know "the sign of Jonas", stood before them. Here is my struggle: did they(hypocrites) have the Spirit or were they blind. Jesus called them blind guides. If the Spirit was not there, then how could they discern "this time" that Jesus spoke of.

    We have the Spirit of God within us. We have the ability to discern the times. We are not blind guides, or shouldn't be. When I consider those in the OT that could see afar off: it would be Daniel, Abraham, Ezekiel, Noah, Moses and others. What set them apart?

    What bothered me to where I could not sleep was that Jesus told them (blind guides), those (religious), they had no trouble discerning the physical but they couldn't see or discern His coming. We have to consider what they could discern of the OT was the physical. But they missed seeing Him there.

    How does one discern the sign of the times? I asked my husband this question this morning and his answer was by the Word of God. But can we even understand the word without God?

    2 Timothy 2:14-15
    [14] Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. [15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    What does "rightly dividing the word of truth" mean? Is this the ability to find proper meanings and teachings of word usage? Do you have to be a scholar? No. Is it to be intelligent and good at "study". No. It doesn't fit when God says prophecy "is not by the will of man". It is not about our being good at cross referencing word usage by a dictionary. That is man's meaning. God uses a different dictionary: it is called the Spirit which searches the hidden truths of God...same as a man's Spirit knows man. So God's Spirit knows God. What is to "rightly divide the word of truth"? Is it to rightly divide the physical meanings from the spiritual meanings? To divide the natural from the Spiritual? To divide the light from the dark? To divide truth from a lie? That takes more than man's dictionary.

    1 John 4:6
    [6] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    2 Peter 1:19-21
    [19] We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    Private interpretation being man's interpretation. Where the Spirit of God teaches a man behind closed doors, that man is never alone but is led by the Spirit of God and joined to the body.

    The purpose of this post is: why do we so often lean on man's understanding?
    Are we "hypocrites" seeing and acknowledging the physical but no more than "blind guides"? Do we see and hear the Spiritual? Why are so many afraid of it? Do we not trust Him enough to lay aside all knowledge and intelligence and just do what He said to do which is to follow?

    1 John 2:27
    [27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
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  2. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    Individual Rabbi's interpretations of Scripture are as old as the nation of Israel, and they were part of the teaching of God's word. AND they often varied from Rabbi to Rabbi. They were called "Targum." (You might want to look it up.)

    You seem to be trying to make the word "Prophesy" mean "Scripture."
     
  3. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    As Christians we have the Spirit living in us, but we don't just listen for the Spirit to shout or whisper in our ear, we also have to change.
    We need bible biased brains or if you prefer,
    Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

    We have to let the Spirit alter how we think and that means reading the bible, listening to sermons etc.

    Jesus promised that the Spirit would bring to our remembrance what we had Learned!

    Christianity is not anti learning we are to be able to give a reason for our belief.
     
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  4. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    In no way do I mean to reject a Rabbi's teachings as not containing wisdom from God. Even if I read this "Targum" you speak of, I wouldn't understand it. That was the whole intent of this post. Not all has knowledge of "Targum" or knowledge of historical fact, or Jewish traditions, or perfect book smarts. Some come to bible with nothing but one translation and start with a single verse.

    I have a friend that I try to encourage to pick up God's word. She is convinced she does not read or comprehend well. It
    is not based on her ability to read or comprehend well, but rather on the Spirits ability to teach. I seriously doubt the disciples carried around an concordance; they had Christ and so do we. Paul knew the OT and traditions and teachings of old, yet God must have had more to show Paul that went far beyond the scope of Paul's previous knowledge. That, what only God can teach, comes only by the Spirit of God and it is given to fools.

    1 Corinthians 3:18-19
    [18] Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. [19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
     
  5. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    To prophesy is not to speak the word of the Lord??? Scripture is not prophecy? When every word is prophetic of Christ's coming and reign?

    Revelation 1:8
    [8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    John 1:1
    [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Revelation 19:9-10
    [9] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. [10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Ezekiel 37:4
    [4] Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord .
     
  6. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    Willie T:

    Do you put any faith in the Targum, that it is equivalent the word of God? And why and why not? Not loaded ??? just curious.

    thanks

    APAK
     
  7. Frank Lee

    Frank Lee Well-Known Member

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    Rabbis have been turned aside from the truth. Just as Christian teachers - preachers that refuse to acknowledge the gifts of the spirit.

    Satan has leaned upon rabbis so that they refuse to teach or read from Isaiah 53rd chapter. The devil knows that this is one of the strongest witnesses in the old testament for Jesus revealed as Messiah.

    To wit;



    Still blind and deaf as Jesus said until God removes the scales from their eyes.

    Here's a Jewish woman that saw Isaiah 53 as it is...



    Elizabeth asked Frieda to read Isaiah chapter 53 and Psalm chapter 22 in her free time.

    “And so I kept reading and then I came to the sixteenth verse and there it says, the second half it says ‘they pierced my hand and my feet.’ And I just let out one big yell that’s Jesus! I was all alone in a little room, there was nobody there to twist my arm. I just ‘boom’ I just saw that that was Jesus. I sat down and I said, “How could I have lived like that, all these years without that.” It was something like coming out of a dark hole into the light. I never knew that He was called the Light of the world, I knew nothing. Then I went to Isaiah 53 and then, it was just like that, I’d understand every word.
     
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  8. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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  9. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    Considering that countless millions and millions of both Jews and Christians down through history (even in modern times) couldn't read, they really had no choice but to sit and listen to what their Rabbi (preacher/priest) told them the Scriptures meant.
     
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  10. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    Willie T:

    I just do not believe they are 'necessarily' the inspired words of God.

    Yes, the Targum or Targums were born out necessity, less than 200 BC when the ethnic-Israelites’ common language became Aramaic. Yes, they were originally oral translations, interpretations and commentaries of OT scripture except for 3 books (why, I don’t know).

    These Babylonian Targums (later written down) along with the Babylonian Talmud and other Rabbinic writings were combined into what was called the Mishnah, by the early 3rd century. I consider the written Hebrew scriptures the inspired words of God.

    I suspect than the Mishnah is a mixture of God’s and man’s inspiration, especially because Jesus condemned some of its writings and sayings as the traditions of men. Now not all of these extra translations were a part of the Targums...

    Thanks again,

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  11. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    As a child I was given a sheet of paper with many dots. I was also given a pencil and asked to join the dots. Although it was not stated, the idea was to finish up with the author of the dots intended picture, lets say a rabbit. It would not be possible to come up with the intended picture if I insisted on joining the ear with the tail or the eye with the foot even if the rabbit was scratching its nose and so on.
    I understand your quoted scripture of 'rightly dividing the word of truth' to mean joining the dots in the order they were intended.

    I admit that what I learnt in my earlier years is not how I see today although fundamentally it is the same. How I shared my understanding has also shifted but also fundamentally the same. What is the same? The understanding that my sins are forgiven for Jesus sake. What is different? A better and deeper reading and understanding of the context.

    What I am saying is this; God uses the human experience process in gaining understanding to disseminate his message. Understandings I had in an earlier stage of my walk which I today see as 'primitive' does not disqualify God's Spirit from working on the hearers. Tomorrow I will see what I today hold as 'developed' as primitive if you get my drift which I am certain you do having read several of your posts.

    I have purposed in my heart that if what and how I see today is lacking or skewed or in error that God will make this plain to me if I maintain a willingness and openness to understand with the intent being to represent God's message clearly and accurately in all the areas you have mentioned. Does that intent disqualify me from hidden error in any of these areas? I should think not.
     
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  12. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    Outta Line

    The sin I'd tasted, tasted fine
    until I'd heard I's outta line
    come follow us, ‘twas said with glee
    be ‘sanctified’ and you'll be free

    Some time went by as I observed
    and what appeared was kind’a curved
    that wretched splinter, I'll be frank
    turned out to be a hardy plank

    Now as planks go, they're cut together
    what came to view was not a slither
    disguised, I saw a wooded hill
    behind it was the noisy mill

    As planks peeled off those stately logs
    I caught the dust down with the hogs
    and what I thought as so much glee
    was practice in hypocrisy.
     
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  13. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    I would like to know why many folks lie and say they lean on the spirt of God to interpret scripture, even in prayer and still go back and use the traditions of men and their teachings as filters. They are indeed hypocrites and liars in my eyes. Why don’t they abandon their filters and biases of men and JUST lean on the spirit of God for interpretation if they really mean it. They cannot. I believe they are either religious worldly believers and /or lack faith that is required to grow and learn as a true believer in Christ.

    Here are the age-old pagan based classic biases that so-called believers will not let go of for dear life when interpreting scripture:

    - The trinity model

    - The preexistence of Jesus thing

    - The incarnation/pre-incarnation of Jesus thing

    - The dual nature of Jesus thing

    When they read say John 3:16, that should be quite simple to understand, they don’t just see that God created his only son, as a human being about 2000 years ago with one nature. THEY ADD, the incarnation thing, the pre-existent Jesus thing and Jesus equals God thing based on their the badly interpreted word of God in John 1. They are not reading and understanding John 3:16 at all, they have created a bastardization version of it at least in their minds. How can they ever understand more difficult passages of scripture if they cannot get this one right? It is a foundational verse that points to salvation. John would be appalled if he heard how these people interpreted his John 3:16!

    So, I challenge these so-called spirit of God religious believers to interpret scripture without their idols and biases.

    For me, this is how I discern and know who is of the spirit f God and who is not.

    There is also a current thread on the ‘Mark of the Beast.’ It is ‘good’ work. These hypocrites I’ve just described, would deliberately misinterpret scripture and say they do not, they have this Mark of the Beast, along with many other Godless heathen folks in the world, and yes, this spirit of the anti-Christ was launched into this world ‘officially’ by misguided bishops of Rome and a pagan leader called Constantine.


    Bless you,


    APAK
     
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  14. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    tag for later
     
  15. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    What a relief to see you back again!! Yay!
    Welcome back.
    Hoping that you had a good trip away.

    While you have been gone we have been ( me anyway) overwhelmed with six threads of arguments ( same old ,old, arguments) between protestants and Catholics...I want to scream every time I come to this site now :(

    So how happy it made me to come on today and find your post and see your face. :)
     
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  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    first, who is this "we?"

    Christianity is not anti-learning per se, but it can be characterized as deterministic

    so if a Christian is not prepared to learn something that will initially at least bring them sorrow, then they might easily be characterized as not anti-learning but unteachable, at least right then
     
  17. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the hello again Helen.....found some pirates parading around some docks taking pics of tourists. Rediscovered Christopher Columbus in the PR...went to St Kitts, Thomas, Maarten....and Island off Haiti....got a cold from someone for three plus days...still have sore lungs today....recovering..

    I see the same RCCs are saying the same things like a broken record....nothing new and something learned from them I don't know already...

    You know another controversial thread would be about evil, devil, satan….a person or a state of the heart or both?...now that would cut through religious party lines for sure....

    Smile....and good day again..:)

    APAK
     
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  18. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    When you say "...and just lean on the Spirit of God for interpretation....", what do you mean?

    Stranger
     
  19. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Explain how the 'hypocrite' sees only the physical and not the spiritual. If that were true, how is that being a 'hypocrite'?

    How is 'laying aside all knowledge and intelligence' to be equated with 'following God'. You are saying to follow God means to be an idiot. To follow God means you are stupid. To follow God means you're ignorant. Where do you get such crazy ideas?

    Stranger
     
  20. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Out of my own imagination, most likely.
     
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