Do Hymns have any revelancy?

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Willie T

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Do you think the songs we sing in church mean much in the way we think about Christianity?
This is a small excerpt from a book none of you will probably ever read:

The whole rise of Western Civilization — science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women — is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings.

Many Christians do not realize it, but the Hope is the basis for many of the great old hymns of the faith, written before the modern era of evangelical despair and pessimism. Think about that the next time you sing Martin Luther's "A mighty Fortress is our God," Isaac Watts's "Jesus shall reign where'er the sun doth his successive journeys run," or George Duffield's "Stand up, stand up for Jesus." Do you really believe that Jesus is now leading us "from victory unto victory... till every foe is vanquished, and Christ is Lord indeed"? That is what the Church has historically believed. That is what they sang in their hymns. This can be seen most clearly in the traditional Christmas carols, which, like Athanasius' reflections on the Incarnation, are unabashed expectations of Christ's triumph over the world through the gospel. Carols such as "Come, thou long-expected Jesus," "O come, O come, Emmanuel," "Hark! the herald angels sing," "God rest you merry, gentlemen," and many others are written from the same basic perspective as the present book. The conviction that — as a result of His first advent — Christ is now reigning from heaven and conquering the earth underlies the message of "Joy to the world!":
No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make his blessings flow
Far as the curse is found.
He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of his righteousness
And wonders of his love.

The same is true of that great victory-oriented carol, "It came upon the midnight clear":

For lo, the days are hast'ning on,
By prophet bards foretold,
When with the ever-circling years
Comes round the age of gold;
When peace shall over all the earth
Its ancient splendors fling,
And the whole world give back the song
Which now the angels sing.

The Psalms: Our Hymnbook of Dominion
There is a very important connection between the Church's worldview and the Church's hymns. If your heart and mouth are filled with songs of victory, you will tend to have an eschatology of dominion; if, instead, your songs are fearful, expressing a longing for escape — or if they are weak, childish ditties — your worldview and expectations will be escapist and childish.

Historically, the basic hymnbook for the Church has been the Book of Psalms. The largest book of the Bible is the Book of Psalms, and God providentially placed it right in the middle of the Bible, so that we couldn't miss it! Yet how many churches use the Psalms in musical worship? It is noteworthy that the Church's abandonment of dominion eschatology coincided with the Church's abandonment of the Psalms.


The Psalms are inescapably Kingdom-oriented. They are full of conquest, victory, and the dominion of the saints. They remind us constantly of the warfare between God and Satan, they incessantly call us to do battle against the forces of evil, and they promise us that we shall inherit the earth. When the Church sang the Psalms — not just little snatches of them, but comprehensively, through the whole Psalter — she was strong, healthy, aggressive, and could not be stopped. That is why the devil has sought to keep us from singing the Psalms, to rob us of our inheritance. If we are to recapture the eschatology of dominion, we must reform the Church; and a crucial aspect of that reformation should be a return to the singing of Psalms. Listen to the historic hymns of the victorious Church:

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. (Ps. 22:27)


For evildoers will be cut off,
But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the earth.
Yet a little while, and the wicked man will be no more;
And you will look carefully for his place, and he will not be.
But the meek will inherit the earth,
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.(Ps. 37:9-11)

Come, behold the works of the LORD,
Who has wrought desolations in the earth.
He makes wars to cease to the end of the earth;
He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two;
He burns the chariots with fire.
Cease striving and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth. (Ps. 46:8-10)

0 clap your hands, all peoples;
Shout to God with the voice of joy.
For the LORD Most High is to be feared,
A great King over all the earth.
He subdues peoples under us,
And nations under our feet. (Ps. 47:1-3)

All the earth will worship Thee,
And will sing praises to Thee;
They will sing praises to Thy name. (Ps. 66:4)

He will rule from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
The nomads of the desert will bow before Him;
And His enemies will lick the dust.
The kings of Tarshish and of the islands will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba will offer gifts.
All kings will bow down before Him;
All nations will serve Him. (Ps. 72:8-11)

All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, 0 LORD;
And they shall glorify Thy name. (Ps. 86:9)

All the kings of the earth will give thanks to Thee, 0 LORD, When they have heard the words of Thy mouth. And they will sing of the ways of the LORD; For great is the glory of the LORD. (Ps. 138:4-5)

Let the godly ones exult in glory;
Let them sing for joy on their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishment on the peoples;
To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute on them the judgment written;
This is an honor for all His godly ones.
Praise the LORD! (Ps. 149:5-9)
 
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amadeus

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Very Good! The lyrics are very important, but also when the person singing sings from a joyous heart filled with the love of and for God is it not even more relevant? Often as I read and type on this forum, some of the old songs are playing in the background!
 
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Helen

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I know you are a UM Reformed Calvinist, but still I am pleasantly surprised to hear you say that. LOL


You have a groupie in me.
I have always been convinced of the anointing on so many of the great old hymns...being Methodist a long while ago ...all Wesley's Hymns bless me ...I can feel the anointing coming upon me by just reading the titles.
LaughingSmiley.gif I believe so many of the great old hymns were birthed through great travail and searching of the soul. Hence the anointing upon them to this day.
 

Helen

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And what about the man who went blind and because of it, he was jilted almost at the altar by the love of his life...

The Lord gave him this hymn which I love to sing...God is faithful through thick and thin, never letting us down.
O Love That Will Not Let Me Go
Indelible Grace

O love that will not let me go, I rest my weary soul in thee.
I give thee back the life I owe, that in thine oceans depths its flow.
May richer fuller be.
O light followest all my way, I yield my flickering torch to thee.
My heart restores its borrowed ray, that in thy sunshine's blaze its day.
May brighter fairer be.
O joy that seekest me through pain, I cannot close my heart to thee.
I chase the rainbow through the rain, and feel the promise is not vain.
That morn shall tearless be.
O cross that liftest up my head, I dare not ask to fly from thee.
I lay in dust's life's glory dead, and from the ground there blossoms red.
Life that shall endless be
.

Source: Musixmatch
 

Enoch111

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Do you think the songs we sing in church mean much in the way we think about Christianity?
Going back to the title of your thread, all we have to do is look at the book of Psalms and we have the answer. If Christians would just be singing the Psalms (divinely inspired) that would suffice.
 

amadeus

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I'm not too sure the direct point I was trying to make ever got through to anyone......
You might also if God has any relevancy? According to a number of people these days, He does not. Most of us here would disagree with that. Most of the same people would speak in favor of hymns being relevant! I find myself in this last group. I don't believe it to be such a lonely place.
 

Willie T

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I go to a UMC but I am NOT United Methodist. PM me if that confuses you lol.
No, since I left the CoC 35 years ago, I have never been a "member" of any denominational church I attended. I guess I would be a Christian Reconstructionist, if anything, but I can't accept the Calvinism of that group.
 
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Willie T

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I was trying to point out that most of the old songs are patterned after the Psalms. Yet, though we sing songs from that book, we don't seem to expect the future to be that way, at all. None of the Psalms speak of Satan growing more and more powerful all the time until the pitifully few Christians that will be left in the world have no hope left but a "Rapture Rescue" while God proceeds to slaughter the vast majority of the world's total population. The original Christians never seem to have envisioned our future to be that way.

Go back up and read the Psalms I quoted. Starting with the first one up there, they speak of the world changing and almost all people in every part of the world eventually worshiping God while we are all still living right here on this dirt ball called Earth. I don't think there is even one Psalm written about getting raptured out of a world that has predominately gone to the Devil.
 
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Stan B

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I would say the hymns have extreme relevancy. Especially compared to the theologically shallow "praise songs" coming out today.
I love the traditional hymns of the faith, but can't tolerate the junk that pervades churches these days. When our church tossed their organ in the garbage and replaced it with guitars and drums, I just wanted to get out of there! My wife strongly suggested that I compromise, and get an organ for our home, where I could play all of the beloved hymns. So I compromised and had an organ custom-built for our home. :)
 

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Enoch111

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I don't think there is even one Psalm written about getting raptured out of a world that has predominately gone to the Devil.
Well that was certainly not the purpose of the Psalms. They are about worship.
 

Willie T

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Well that was certainly not the purpose of the Psalms. They are about worship.
My point was never to try to tackle the rationalization of the rapture dream. I know that is too ingrained to resist. My intent was to point out that the early church obviously felt ALL the world would one day worship God, instead of 80% - 90% of Earth's population going to war with Him.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Do you think the songs we sing in church mean much in the way we think about Christianity?
This is a small excerpt from a book none of you will probably ever read:

The whole rise of Western Civilization — science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women — is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings.

Many Christians do not realize it, but the Hope is the basis for many of the great old hymns of the faith, written before the modern era of evangelical despair and pessimism. Think about that the next time you sing Martin Luther's "A mighty Fortress is our God," Isaac Watts's "Jesus shall reign where'er the sun doth his successive journeys run," or George Duffield's "Stand up, stand up for Jesus." Do you really believe that Jesus is now leading us "from victory unto victory... till every foe is vanquished, and Christ is Lord indeed"? That is what the Church has historically believed. That is what they sang in their hymns. This can be seen most clearly in the traditional Christmas carols, which, like Athanasius' reflections on the Incarnation, are unabashed expectations of Christ's triumph over the world through the gospel. Carols such as "Come, thou long-expected Jesus," "O come, O come, Emmanuel," "Hark! the herald angels sing," "God rest you merry, gentlemen," and many others are written from the same basic perspective as the present book. The conviction that — as a result of His first advent — Christ is now reigning from heaven and conquering the earth underlies the message of "Joy to the world!":
No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make his blessings flow
Far as the curse is found.
He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of his righteousness
And wonders of his love.

The same is true of that great victory-oriented carol, "It came upon the midnight clear":

For lo, the days are hast'ning on,
By prophet bards foretold,
When with the ever-circling years
Comes round the age of gold;
When peace shall over all the earth
Its ancient splendors fling,
And the whole world give back the song
Which now the angels sing.

The Psalms: Our Hymnbook of Dominion
There is a very important connection between the Church's worldview and the Church's hymns. If your heart and mouth are filled with songs of victory, you will tend to have an eschatology of dominion; if, instead, your songs are fearful, expressing a longing for escape — or if they are weak, childish ditties — your worldview and expectations will be escapist and childish.

Historically, the basic hymnbook for the Church has been the Book of Psalms. The largest book of the Bible is the Book of Psalms, and God providentially placed it right in the middle of the Bible, so that we couldn't miss it! Yet how many churches use the Psalms in musical worship? It is noteworthy that the Church's abandonment of dominion eschatology coincided with the Church's abandonment of the Psalms.


The Psalms are inescapably Kingdom-oriented. They are full of conquest, victory, and the dominion of the saints. They remind us constantly of the warfare between God and Satan, they incessantly call us to do battle against the forces of evil, and they promise us that we shall inherit the earth. When the Church sang the Psalms — not just little snatches of them, but comprehensively, through the whole Psalter — she was strong, healthy, aggressive, and could not be stopped. That is why the devil has sought to keep us from singing the Psalms, to rob us of our inheritance. If we are to recapture the eschatology of dominion, we must reform the Church; and a crucial aspect of that reformation should be a return to the singing of Psalms. Listen to the historic hymns of the victorious Church:

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. (Ps. 22:27)


For evildoers will be cut off,
But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the earth.
Yet a little while, and the wicked man will be no more;
And you will look carefully for his place, and he will not be.
But the meek will inherit the earth,
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.(Ps. 37:9-11)

Come, behold the works of the LORD,
Who has wrought desolations in the earth.
He makes wars to cease to the end of the earth;
He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two;
He burns the chariots with fire.
Cease striving and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth. (Ps. 46:8-10)

0 clap your hands, all peoples;
Shout to God with the voice of joy.
For the LORD Most High is to be feared,
A great King over all the earth.
He subdues peoples under us,
And nations under our feet. (Ps. 47:1-3)

All the earth will worship Thee,
And will sing praises to Thee;
They will sing praises to Thy name. (Ps. 66:4)

He will rule from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
The nomads of the desert will bow before Him;
And His enemies will lick the dust.
The kings of Tarshish and of the islands will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba will offer gifts.
All kings will bow down before Him;
All nations will serve Him. (Ps. 72:8-11)

All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, 0 LORD;
And they shall glorify Thy name. (Ps. 86:9)

All the kings of the earth will give thanks to Thee, 0 LORD, When they have heard the words of Thy mouth. And they will sing of the ways of the LORD; For great is the glory of the LORD. (Ps. 138:4-5)

Let the godly ones exult in glory;
Let them sing for joy on their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishment on the peoples;
To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute on them the judgment written;
This is an honor for all His godly ones.
Praise the LORD! (Ps. 149:5-9)
I believe that all Holy Spirit-inspired songs, whether they are hymns or modern worship songs, have relevance.
 
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Willie T

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I love the traditional hymns of the faith, but can't tolerate the junk that pervades churches these days. When our church tossed their organ in the garbage and replaced it with guitars and drums, I just wanted to get out of there! My wife strongly suggested that I compromise, and get an organ for our home, where I could play all of the beloved hymns. So I compromised and had an organ custom-built for our home. :)
Yet, I wonder what an abomination the very early Christians must have felt the introduction of such a garish thing as a squealing calliope organ into their worship services was...….. since, prior to that first one being installed, they had never heard such a noise in their churches.

Many things in all the different past generations have become to be accepted as "true church" to THAT group...… when their ancestors would surely have been turning over in their graves at such perceived blasphemy.

My wife was raised in the Church of Christ (no instruments, at all), and I spent 12 years in the CoC. We both feel that same way about beautiful a cappella music. We can't understand why anyone would have wanted to ruin what God gave each of us, by playing an organ or piano (or drums & guitar) over top of the voices.
 
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reformed1689

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My wife was raised in the Church of Christ (no instruments, at all), and I spent 12 years in the CoC. We both feel that same way about beautiful Acapella music. We can't understand why anyone would have wanted to ruin what God gave each of us, by playing an organ or piano (or drums & guitar) over top of the voices.
Praise the Lord with Instruments is clearly in Scripture.