Do Man's Programs too often displace God and His plan?

[amadeus]

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Programs in church services often quench the Spirit of God people who are wishing to follow His lead. The pastor or preacher may not want it, but what if God does? Would you or anyone else want to stand in God's way because He is not on the program?

Pia: Amen ! That seems to be the main problem within fellowships.......ANY mention of the reality of Christ as The Resurrected Son of Man / Son of God, and they all seem to run for the hills.. they feel safer following what they see as God's words written in stone, than the Word, which according to the Bible they claim to follow says, "The Word is ALIVE and powerful, even to the dividing of the soul and the spirit......The soul being the intellect/emotion/understanding of mankind in the world...

Where I attend much of the leadership [ministers] have long been working to allow the Holy Spirit to operate freely, but they also have too often [as I see it] missed the way. Probably every new assembly and every new denomination before it was even called a denomination has tried to do this, but then someone comes disrupting or apparently acting out of order and then new rules or methods are established to control the situation. Does God really need this kind of help? Is He really so powerless? Some people act as if He is and the result is to cast God out of the program.

 

[bbyrd009]

this could be extended to every facet of our worldly existence imo.
One does not trust God, so they buy insurance, elect kings, and even build houses.

 

[DPMartin]

men exercise many enterprises for their own benefit in the name of God without anything to do with God. what excludes churches from doing the same. do you know how many so called Christian churches there are that have nothing to do with the Gospel truth?


take a look at your statement:
"Where I attend much of the leadership [ministers] have long been working to allow the Holy Spirit to operate freely" a true case in point of man's attitude toward the God they claim to be their God who is supposed to be sovereign in every way.

but the bottom line is, no one makes God do anything, participate in anything, or, no preacher or not calls down anything of God. God manifests His Presence with whom He please hence whom He chooses when He chooses for His reasons. no one makes the Almighty's Holy Spirit walk with them or dwell with them. hence All Mighty.

Israel did the same stuff, they would do the offerings but the Lord their God would have nothing to do with it.

it's not about whether or not some jerk in charge approves, its about whether or not the Lord approves. man still doesn't get their "human nature" is never like God's Nature. human nature is an animal nature and men are territorial for domination and self interests and manage it like wild dog packs does. they expect demonstrations of submittal and the underling always seeks to fill voids of power and positions, even if its to create the void. or he's preserved as useless and unmotivated. no different then corporate behavior. just because they call themselves a church doesn't mean anything is different then the rest of the world.

 

[amadeus]

Pia said on another thread:

Hello.....What do you mean derail ? About God's children? But isn't that exactly what the people going to various churches every week, whatever denomination, are? Or at least they have been told they are, ot they think they are ?
What is a child of God? Jn 1 : 12,13.....As many as received Him, to THEM He gave the right to become the children of God, to those who BELIEVE IN HIS NAME (the truth that His name represents the actual Son of God upon the earth as a human)........13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man, but of God...... So a child is simply a believer, IN CHRIST
Now to 2 cor 5 : 17,18........Therefore, if anyone is IN Christ, he IS a new creation ( a whole new race of beings on the earth, other scriptures tells the truth of this ); old things have passed away, behold ALL things HAVE become new......18) NOW ( emphasis on NOW ), all things are of God, who HAS reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given US the ministry of reconciliation. ( To offer that same reconciliation, to others, with complete immunity, as we see in verse 21 )
2 cor 5:21.......For He (God) made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to BE sin for us, that we might BECOME the righteousness of God IN HIM......We should all really look into what the full picture is, of what He is offering us.... There are many references to this New Creation we have become. It's worth the effort to find the scriptures about it..... Pia, a child of God Praise His Holy Name forever more !!!!!

 

[amadeus]

this could be extended to every facet of our worldly existence imo.
One does not trust God, so they buy insurance, elect kings, and even build houses.

Indeed, it does not stop with what people do or don't do when they are supposedly gathering together as His people to serve Him.

 

[amadeus]

men exercise many enterprises for their own benefit in the name of God without anything to do with God. what excludes churches from doing the same. do you know how many so called Christian churches there are that have nothing to do with the Gospel truth?


take a look at your statement:
"Where I attend much of the leadership [ministers] have long been working to allow the Holy Spirit to operate freely" a true case in point of man's attitude toward the God they claim to be their God who is supposed to be sovereign in every way.

but the bottom line is, no one makes God do anything, participate in anything, or, no preacher or not calls down anything of God. God manifests His Presence with whom He please hence whom He chooses when He chooses for His reasons. no one makes the Almighty's Holy Spirit walk with them or dwell with them. hence All Mighty.

Israel did the same stuff, they would do the offerings but the Lord their God would have nothing to do with it.

it's not about whether or not some jerk in charge approves, its about whether or not the Lord approves. man still doesn't get their "human nature" is never like God's Nature. human nature is an animal nature and men are territorial for domination and self interests and manage it like wild dog packs does. they expect demonstrations of submittal and the underling always seeks to fill voids of power and positions, even if its to create the void. or he's preserved as useless and unmotivated. no different then corporate behavior. just because they call themselves a church doesn't mean anything is different then the rest of the world.

"Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish." Psalm 49:12

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Repenting one time doesn't take away all of the beast nature within us. Neither does receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Those are steps in the right direction, but the lie Road, the "highway of holiness" still lies ahead.

 

[amadeus]

Pia:
Hello.....What do you mean derail ? About God's children? But isn't that exactly what the people going to various churches every week, whatever denomination, are? Or at least they have been told they are, ot they think they are ?
What is a child of God? Jn 1 : 12,13.....As many as received Him, to THEM He gave the right to become the children of God, to those who BELIEVE IN HIS NAME (the truth that His name represents the actual Son of God upon the earth as a human)........13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man, but of God...... So a child is simply a believer, IN CHRIST
Now to 2 cor 5 : 17,18........Therefore, if anyone is IN Christ, he IS a new creation ( a whole new race of beings on the earth, other scriptures tells the truth of this ); old things have passed away, behold ALL things HAVE become new......18) NOW ( emphasis on NOW ), all things are of God, who HAS reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given US the ministry of reconciliation. ( To offer that same reconciliation, to others, with complete immunity, as we see in verse 21 )
2 cor 5:21.......For He (God) made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to BE sin for us, that we might BECOME the righteousness of God IN HIM......We should all really look into what the full picture is, of what He is offering us.... There are many references to this New Creation we have become. It's worth the effort to find the scriptures about it..... Pia, a child of God Praise His Holy Name forever more !!!!!

A new creation indeed, but like the natural baby of flesh that first comes forth from its mother, it has only just begun. Some people are newly created in this manner but then their growth in the Lord is stunted or stifled or stopped by man. Can any man stop the growth in another? No, but sometimes people get tired or lazy or apathetic or some combination thereof and just follow a man instead of continue along the "highway of holiness" which is really has been set before them:

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." Isaiah 35:8-10

 

[aspen]

It seems to me that formalized methods of worship start out as free expression, which is pleasing to God. Yet, when it is repeated, it can sometimes feel hollow and almost like one is 'playing church' - as if it has failed to capture the essence of the free expression it once had. The method is often criticized when this feeling is encountered - as if the exercise itself, is the problem.

I disagree with this assessment for several reasons:

1. Our emotional state has nothing to do will how God receives our offering

2. The feelings of ecstasy/free expression are mountaintop experiences - we have the same awesome, new, exciting, overwhelming feelings when we first fell in love; then, the feelings mature and deepen.

3. Mammals follow a pattern of 'explore' and 'recharge' in all relationships starting with parents, and repeating in our relationships with people we love, and with God; our deepest relationship. It is called the 'Circle of Security' - if you are interested, please google it. In essence, people start out in a close, secure relationship.....security leads to empowerment and exploration of our world, which in turn, lead to a desire for closeness once again. It is healthy and it seems to be how we were created. God calls us out into the dessert and he calls us home.

This pattern suggests to me that we are quite hard on ourselves relative to our assessment of healthy relationships. At the farthest reaches of exploration, our inherent need for security kicks in and we may mistake it for disobedience or lack of faith or doubt; we often become self criticize. In fact, we are simply ebbing and flowing, so to speak. God calls us to childlike faith, which includes awe and wonder and exploration and he calls us into intimate prayer.

Not every moment with another is going to feel the same based on our point on the circle.

Instead of assessing and reassessing and adjusting and scraping and retooling and repositioning and revamping our worship - I think we just need to make a humble offering. It's our busyness that gets in the way, not our method

 

[mjrhealth]

not our method

You would be surprised as to how mans methods get in Gods way. all the time.

 

[aspen]

You would be surprised as to how mans methods get in Gods way. all the time.

But, is that man or the method?

 

[mjrhealth]

But, is that man or the method?

man and His methods. As I said before, God had to get it right and do it completely," It is finished" because man is just to arrogant proud and foolish to get anything right. Religion is just man way of bringing God down to our level. We control God, He dances for us, we set out day, our time and He must come. Maybe God says, why should I???

 

[aspen]

man and His methods. As I said before, God had to get it right and do it completely," It is finished" because man is just to arrogant proud and foolish to get anything right. Religion is just man way of bringing God down to our level. We control God, He dances for us, we set out day, our time and He must come. Maybe God says, why should I???

I've never seen a person talk about God without using religious language

 

[amadeus]

It seems to me that formalized methods of worship start out as free expression, which is pleasing to God. Yet, when it is repeated, it can sometimes feel hollow and almost like one is 'playing church' - as if it has failed to capture the essence of the free expression it once had. The method is often criticized when this feeling is encountered - as if the exercise itself, is the problem.

If our hearts are right with God, I believe that we will never feel hollow or like we are 'playing church'. At that is according to my own experience and what God has shown me.

I disagree with this assessment for several reasons:

1. Our emotional state has nothing to do will how God receives our offering

No, it is always what is in our hearts that God is looking at. In the OT, they have seemingly perfect set of formal rules to follow as given to Moses by God, yet the end result of the most of the natural children of Jacob/Israel did not please God.

2. The feelings of ecstasy/free expression are mountaintop experiences - we have the same awesome, new, exciting, overwhelming feelings when we first fell in love; then, the feelings mature and deepen.

What you say may be true or not, depending on what an individual has in his/her heart and what God wants from that individual.

3. Mammals follow a pattern of 'explore' and 'recharge' in all relationships starting with parents, and repeating in our relationships with people we love, and with God; our deepest relationship. It is called the 'Circle of Security' - if you are interested, please google it. In essence, people start out in a close, secure relationship.....security leads to empowerment and exploration of our world, which in turn, lead to a desire for closeness once again. It is healthy and it seems to be how we were created. God calls us out into the dessert and he calls us home.

There are many types and shadows in the OT, and in carnal people, and in what men call 'lower animals', but they are only types and shadows after all. They are only schoolmasters to help people understand while they are growing, hopefully, to what God really wants from them.

In the OT King David may help us to understand what God really wants:

"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
he sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."Psalm 51:16-17

This pattern suggests to me that we are quite hard on ourselves relative to our assessment of healthy relationships. At the farthest reaches of exploration, our inherent need for security kicks in and we may mistake it for disobedience or lack of faith or doubt; we often become self criticize. In fact, we are simply ebbing and flowing, so to speak. God calls us to childlike faith, which includes awe and wonder and exploration and he calls us into intimate prayer.

You have used some good words here, but when it comes to a church meeting or a worship service or a prayer meeting or any other meeting of God's people, what should the purpose be?

On their own people do at their best in serving God look a bit like yo yo's. In the OT, they would enter the outer court and present their sacrifice. The priests would slay and offer it for them. The priests would go into the Holy Place for them. The High Priest would go into the Holiest of Holies for them. Over the weeks and years this process would repeat, but for the most part their hearts never really changed so within 40 years most of the adults were dead not having attained to the Promised Land.

God has made a better Way. We need not try to follow the type and shadow of the Israelites and the Tabernacle in the wilderness. Those types and shadows point toward something which better, something which is real. They could not do it on their own. We cannot. This is the answer rather than more rituals and methods devised by the brains of intelligent men. The more devices we make and rituals we need to follow, the more likely it it is than those things will distract people from the real thing, which is God and His Son.

Not every moment with another is going to feel the same based on our point on the circle.

A vicious circle is not the Way to God. The Way is along the "highway of holiness", but we must come to understand what and where that is. Only God through His Son and the Holy Spirit can show us what is needed.

Instead of assessing and reassessing and adjusting and scraping and retooling and repositioning and revamping our worship - I think we just need to make a humble offering. It's our busyness that gets in the way, not our method

The humble offering is good, but for the sake of those who are confused or distracted by all of the trimmings which they do not understand, would it be better to go back to the two great commandments according to Jesus?

But... seemingly someone thinks our ministers need to educated in universities and/or seminaries before they are qualified to lead the way.

The ones Jesus chose as His primary 12 were for the most part uneducated fishermen. Where did they get their understanding? Where did they get their education? Where did they get their Love and their Spirit?

 

[bbyrd009]

I've never seen a person talk about God without using religious language

ya, God cannot really be known to us, so we almost have to have a special vernacular there, however Christ can come to be known, and it is possible to express Christ in every day language imo

that other post was really nice!

 

[Frank Lee]

Jim Melton, a real missionary to Mexico was one of my faith heroes. He carried the message of the cross to Mexico. He was jailed in Mexico city for his evangelizing for Jesus. He represented Jesus Christ and no denomination. He laughed about the experience saying "I didn't feel very apostolic"!

As he spoke one night in Little Rock he leaned forward and drummed his fingers on the podium. "God doesn't need idea men". He said. Then he paused and repeated the same statement. God doesn't need idea men. God needs good listeners and obedience.

Without the baptism of the Holy Spirit men continue to walk in their own wisdom, guidance and strength. It's a pitiful disaster. Denominations continue to instill fear and prejudice in church goers against the very word of God. They deny that being born of the spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit are two distinct separate events. I am forever grateful that Jesus came and saved me and baptized me in His Holy Spirit outside of church walls. Outside of denominational traditions, pressures and doctrinal statements. He had His reasons.

As a consequence churches blindly stumble along without the close guidance they COULD have. Separate Saul and Barnabas to me the Holy Spirit spoke to those praying. How wonderful! Answer to their prayers. Acts 13:2

I don't know what all believe but I can read the simple commands in the Bible. Until professed believers, like those in Acts chapter 19, submit themselves to Jesus and ask Him to step in and baptize them in His Holy Spirit they will continue to fail in their own strength and fleshly wisdom.

Brother Jude mentions those not having the spirit in vs. 19.

Jude 1:18-20 KJVS
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. [19] These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. [20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Fighting spiritual battles with carnal weapons is useless.

 

[Helen]

God has made a better Way. We need not try to follow the type and shadow of the Israelites and the Tabernacle in the wilderness. Those types and shadows point toward something which better, something which is real.
They could not do it on their own. We cannot.
This is the answer rather than more rituals and methods devised by the brains of intelligent men. The more devices we make and rituals we need to follow, the more likely it it is than those things will distract people from the real thing, which is God and His Son.

A friend of mine said to me today.." I looked around at Church on Sunday and sadly noticed that many of the old ones had died, but no new one are taking their place..Our Church is dying."

Well one thing we do know is..The Church is not dying..because it is His people..His body.
"Church" attendance may be dying....I believe the lack of passion, spiritual anointed leadership,
and real body ministry is the reason for that. When people are just expected to turn up and sit and listen, rather than be a living vital part of that gathering...I can see why attendance is down.
When I started this walk with the Lord in the 60's, we had five meetings a week, we went 30 mins before the meeting time , whenever we got there to unlock the door people were already there, waiting and excited for the meeting.
I meetings were never shorter than 3 hours and we couldn't get them to go home afterward! Many would come back to the house and stay for hours.
It was nothing of us....We were fortunate to be living at that time, at the end of the 'Latter Rain' wave of the Spirit.
It was not any of us, it was all God. By the late 70's it was all over..the wave had crested and was on the ebb. The glory cloud had moved on.
So, my question is...1)has the church changed? 2) Is God not doing the things He was doing back there? If not why? ( I think you also saw some of it in your early days?)
3) OR , is God not doing anything like He was 'back then' because man thinks that they should take back the reigns of ministry and do a better job than the Holy Spirit?

'Back then' there were prophesies, visions, healing, deliverance, real words of knowledge, tongues, interpretation of tongues , and even if a 12 year old had something to share , the floor was open for them...all these were the norm in every meeting.
The last time I went to "church"..a lady wanted to share a word ( song, testimony? who knows!) She had to walk down to the front , tell the Pastor what she wanted to share, the pastor gave the nod.
Whereas in my bible says :- Let one speak and the body judge if it is a true word or not.
I do not read- " Let the minister be in full control and let him be the one who says if its God or not!!

And people wonder why the church is dying!!
Needless to say..I do not go to what is called "church" anymore. But, I do not really have full wisdom about why we today are how we are!
I have no answers. Questions, but no answers.
I believe that there are many many more of God's people 'out of church' who are alive , vibrant and passionate about the things of God, than those who attend some man-led meeting .

 

[bbyrd009]

when did "I came that you might have life, more abundantly" turn into
"i can't wait to die and go to heaven?"

 

[mjrhealth]

I've never seen a person talk about God without using religious language

I spoke to teh wife of a friend of mine for an hr or so, telling her all about Jesus, never had to mention teh bible never had to use religious language, as you put it, and she believed me, because she could see His life in me when I spoke, and as she put it, after listening to many discussions between me and her husband, all he talks about is the bible, you speak from experience. Those where her own words.

ya, God cannot really be known to us

actually He can, I got my testimony from Him a year or so ago, one tiny little statement i didnt know was in teh bible..

Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

Amen

 

[bbyrd009]

Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

i would call that knowledge of God, seems to me that knowing God is a different thing

 

[mjrhealth]

i would call that knowledge of God, seems to me that knowing God is a different thing

you missed it, One can know God, just as many Know Jesus. far to many only know about God and about Jesus. For one to RX His testimony from God He must know God. It is He who gave it to me.