Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
It would seem to me repentance is the key. That is the message Jesus was teaching. Read Matthew 4:17 again.
Do non-Christians go to Hell after death?
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Bob Estey
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You have to understand what hell is to understand if non-Christians go to hell after death, I believe.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
People seem to have a simplified understanding of what heaven and hell are. They think heaven is this great place, and hell is this awful place, and they think no more of it.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
People have this idea that if they sin, they will go to hell after they die. In fact, if we sin, we have trouble in this lifetime.
Berean
Active Member
Well, they certainly don't go BEFORE death.
St. SteVen
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face2face
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Bladerunner
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No, The body goes to the Grave....The souls goes to one of two places..Paradise or Hell.
face2face
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Bladerunner
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No, your speaking of dream sleep....The Body goes to the Grave for it is dead..The Soul which is eternal resides in one of two places...as I said. Look to Luke 16:19-31. The Rich man and Lazarus.. No, it is not a parable but is a story that Jesus tells all who will listen..Are you one of them.....We can learn a lot about this story..How about it. would you like to hear about it. Read it first and we can talk about it....May God Bless.
Berean
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face2face
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The Rich man is a parable used against the Pharisees - it's one of the Lords most beautifully crafted works.
You can't show anything immaterial leaving a body in the Scripture.
You know it
F2F
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There is a danger in quoting verses out of context…..John 3 is a good example.
Lets look at the context and see what Jesus was saying here, and to whom he said it.
This is Jesus receiving a clandestine visit from one of the Pharisees who sought a private audience with Jesus. He came under cover of darkness so that he would not be seen by his fellow Jews, especially their leaders. Jesus had just told Nicodemus about being “born again” and the man was confused by this term.
Jesus explained….
John 3:12-21….
”If I tell you the earthly side and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you the heavenly side? 13 And nobody has gone up to heaven but he who came down out of heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses raised the snake aloft in the desert, so the Son of Man must be raised aloft, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world but in order to have the world saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged; he who does not believe is already judged because he has not believed in the name of God’s only son. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their doings were bad. 20 For anyone who is misbehaving hates the light and does not come to the light, that his doings may not be exposed; 21 but he who is doing as truth would have him comes to the light that his doings may be disclosed, because they are work done in God.”
Can we unpack this a bit? I know you love God and have faith in Jesus as the Christ, but here was a teacher among the Jewish Pharisees, (Nicodemus) who was asking some serious questions.
Jesus was speaking spiritually, but Nicodemus was comprehending only physically.
Jesus’ words needed to be interpreted spiritually. Being “born again“ was something his disciples had yet to understand. It wasn’t something that happened to them whilst they were still in the flesh, but something that would take place at their resurrection. They were given a “token” of their choosing to be one of Christ’s elect, (Eph 1:13-14) but that just gave them a strong desire to be where their Lord promised to take them….to heaven. No one can go to heaven in a physical body, so they must be transformed by being “born again” in a spirit body, in order to be in the presence of God in a spiritual realm. (1 Cor 15:50-54) Humans cannot exist outside of Earth’s atmosphere. We are confined to an enormous space ship with all life support systems fully operative. There was never any reason to leave what was created to be our eternal home.
Christ’s elect are a small body who were chosen by God to rule with his son in the coming Kingdom, (Matt 6:9) and also to take on the role of priests as Jesus said in his Revelation to John. (Rev 20:6)
Rulers need subjects, and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties…..these subjects are not in heaven, because there are no sinners in heaven and kings do not rule over each other.
God never created humans to live in heaven….he already had a large family of spirit sons who serve him there. But the way was opened for Christ’s elect to follow him once he had paid the ransom for the human race with the sacrifice of his own sinless life. Their resurrection takes place “first” and only when Christ returns to take them “home”. (1 Thess 4:13-17)
Jesus spoke of “Gehenna” which is not a fiery HELL of eternal torment, because the dead are not alive to suffer anything. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
There is no immortal soul that leaves the body to go to heaven (unless they are chosen by God as one of his elect) or to a hell of torture. None of the laws that God gave his people involved torture. There were capital crimes which incurred death, but none that included torture for the sake of it.
It is outside of God’s loving personality to to inflict pain unless it is to bring one to repentance….and only the unrepentant sinner was punished. God is foremost a “forgiver”…… NOT a “punisher”. Those deserving of death are judged so by Jesus, and sentence is carried out swiftly. Death ends life….period.
It is the incorrigibly wicked who will go to “Gehenna”….a place of eternal death. Nothing alive is in Gehenna. It is for the disposal of worthless things including “death and hades” or the grave. (Rev 20:13-14)
Gehenna is called the lake of fire…..but it is also called “the second death”…..a death that is permanent. No one returns from that place, which is also reserved for the devil and his minions. Anything cast into the lake of fire is “destroyed” never to be seen again. What purpose would everlasting torture serve?
I see such zeal in your posts but I also see a lot of misinterpretation of Scripture. The vindictive and cruel God you worship does not exist. Resurrection is God’s way of giving all those who lived and died without opportunity to get to know “the only true God and the one he sent”, (John 17:3) a second chance. Those who died in ignorance will not be held accountable. Only those alive at his return, who show no respect for him, his teachings or the laws of his Father, will perish at Armageddon….the final showdown between the King and his enemies. We already know who the winner is.
A thousand years will be spent under Christ’s rulership, bringing the entire redeemed human race back into reconciliation with their Creator….so that all can return to his original purpose for us here on an earth so lovingly prepared for us.…otherwise, why are we here Amigo?
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
No, I believe hell is the consequence of our sin. For example, if you rob a bank, you go to prison. I don't think you'd enjoy being in prison. (And so the Lord cautioned us not to steal.)
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Bob.
This is a very interesting train of thought.
Here's how that plays out from a Universalist POV.
For example, let's say you are that bank robber that ended up in prison.
You have already had consequences for that sinful act. What happens at the judgement?
That whole situation needs to be unraveled and dealt with.
This means reconciling with all parties involved. Part of a whole age of restoration.
(including nations, leaders (both political and religious) and individuals.
So, our ex-con bank robber is corrected/restored/redeemed in the age of restoration.
[
Berean
Active Member
The difficulty with a parable like the Rich Man and Lazarus is that (a) it's easier than many parables to take it at face value, and (b) without the right understanding, there's a risk of misusing the symbols while trying to make sense of the conflicting elements.
Many Christians, like yourself, read this and quickly see the fiery torment as proof of their belief in eternal punishment in hell. They might also connect being gathered to Abraham’s bosom with their idea of “heaven,” believing there's a clear, unbridgeable gap between the two. We would ask them — in what other parables are the elements taken so literally? Is the parable of the Wheat and Tares really just about harvesting wheat? Is the Pearl of Great Price a real pearl? Does Jesus truly refer to a literal fig tree that produced no fruit? If our Lord doesn’t mean exactly what he says in other cases, it would be unusual for him to do so in this passage.
So let's look at this account in more detail. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees in Luke 16:14-15. He often used parables to teach important lessons, as noted in Mark 4:34, where it says he didn't speak to them without using a parable. Many commentaries agree that this passage is a parable. Furthermore, Jesus mentioned that the rich man's five brothers had "Moses and the prophets" (verse 29), which helps us understand the meaning of the parable better.
When we see that the rich man stands for Israel and the poor man symbolizes the Gentiles, the meanings become much clearer. This view is strong because it explains many strange aspects of the story effectively.
Let's look at some of this strange aspects:
Lazarus is named. In all other parables, Jesus doesn't use specific names for characters. Here, naming the poor man Lazarus hints at Israel's unwillingness to believe, even with clear proof. This name emphasizes their lack of faith. While it's hard to pinpoint the exact timing, it's probable that this parable was shared just a week or two before Lazarus was raised from the dead.
The rich man appears to suffer without any wrongdoing, simply because he's wealthy. If we don't assume that being rich makes him a sinner, we need to find another reason for his misfortune. Viewing this as a shift in circumstances, we can see that this rich man was once blessed by God, making this a tale about lost favor.
When we think of the rich man as a symbol for the nation of Israel, many details start to make sense. For example, Israel was blessed with God's promises. The white linen he wore represents righteousness, showing how God's Chosen People were seen as righteous because they followed the Law. Additionally, purple signifies royalty, reflecting their esteemed status because of God's favor. However, despite these blessings and their privileged position, they lost God's favor and were replaced by the Gentiles.
My understanding is that a fiery hell is not supported by scripture. So, how does the rich man's suffering fit into this idea? If we look at the shift in favor, where the rich man loses his status and the poor man gains it, this represents the change from the Jewish Age to the Gospel Age. Due to their lack of faith, Israel lost its special standing with God and faced severe persecution during the Gospel Age. The suffering of the rich man symbolizes this mistreatment.
In the time of Jesus, Jews viewed Gentiles as inferior, often calling them dogs. A clear example is the Syrophoenician woman in Matthew 15:21-28. Initially, Jesus didn't respond to her, and his disciples urged him to send her away. However, he eventually spoke to her, stating that he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel (verse 24) and mentioned that it wasn't right to give the children's bread to the dogs (verse 26). The woman replied in verse 27, acknowledging, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table” (NASB). This idea is also reflected in the parable where Lazarus longs for the crumbs from the rich man's table (Luke 16:21). Thus, Lazarus symbolizes the Gentile "dogs" who come to Christ.
This parable was meant to show the Jews that they had many chances but wasted them. Even if the deeper meaning was not clear, it would be hard for anyone to ignore Lazarus’ return to life and the hint that he was the Messiah they sought. Those who paid attention and saw the link would have their faith boosted. Additionally, this is just one sign that the blessings once meant for Israel have now gone to the Gentiles. It shows how God’s Plan is moving forward and confirms that our understanding aligns with His will.
"And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’" - Luke 16:26
The great gulf fixed between the rich man and Lazarus shows the big difference between the Gospel Church and the Jews. Israel's failure to recognize Christ has caused this separation between those in favor and those not. However, this separation is not meant to last forever. The Greek word for "gulf" [Strongs 5490] suggests a time aspect. It's defined as a "chasm or vacancy (impassable interval)." While this definition mainly refers to the differences between the Church and Israel, the idea of an "impassable interval" might indicate a time when the gap could not be crossed. This could relate to the 1845-year period when Israel was not favored, which aligns with the message of the parable.
The Jewish double began to change in 1878 AD when the Berlin Congress allowed Jews to buy land in Israel. This was the start of closing the gap, with support for Israel slowly increasing. The gap will be completely closed when Israel accepts Jesus as the Messiah, as mentioned in Zechariah 12:10. At that point, the rich man will regain God's favor. This idea is also shown in Ezekiel 37, where a valley of dry bones comes back to life.
If you wish to know more about this "double", I'd be more than happy to explain it to you in more detail.
face2face
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Correct the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23...which is why everything goes to the grave!
Correct, the grave is the prison!
You have just taught me the Gospel - well done!
Isaiah 42:7-9 You will free those who are in prison (grave), and you will lead those who live in darkness out of their prison. “I am the LORD. That is my name. I will not give my glory to another; I will not let idols take the praise that should be mine.
asoul
Member
Do not think that Charity is unfair, and that only because many people do not belong to Israel or to Christ, although they are virtuous in the religion which they follow convinced that it is the true one, they are to remain forever without reward.
After the end of the world no other virtue will survive except Charity, that is, the Union of all the creatures who lived in justice, with the Creator. There will not be several Heavens: one for Israel, one for Christians, one for Catholics, one for Gentiles, one for heathens. There will be one Heaven only. And likewise there will be one reward only: God, the Creator, Who rejoins His creatures who lived according to justice, and in whom, because of the beauty of the souls and bodies of saints, He will admire Himself with the joy of Father and of God. There will be one Lord only. Not one Lord for Israel, one for Catholicism, one for each of the other religions.
Do not always wait for the Holy Spirit to clarify the truth after years or centuries of darkness. Listen. You may say: "Then, what justice is there in belonging to the holy religion, if at the end of the world we shall be treated exactly as the Gentiles?" I reply to you: the same justice which there is and it is true justice—for those who, although they belong to the holy religion, will not be beatified, because they they did not lead a holy life. A virtuous heathen, only because he lived according to choice virtue, convinced that his religion was good, will have Heaven at the end. When? At the end of the world, when of the four abodes of the dead, two only will remain: that is, Paradise and Hell. Because Justice, at that time, will only be able to keep and give the two eternal kingdoms to those, who from the tree of free will, chose good fruits or wanted wicked ones. But what a long expectation before a virtuous heathen achieves that reward!...Do You not think so? And that expectation, particularly from the moment when Redemption will have taken place with all its consequent wonders and the Gospel will have been preached all over the world, will be the purgation of the souls which lived with justice in other religions, but were not able to enter the true Faith, after they became acquainted with its existence and the proof of its reality. Their abode will be Limbo for centuries and centuries, until the end of the world. The believers in the true God, who were not heroically holy, will have a long Purgatory, which may last until the end of the world for some of them. But after expiating and waiting, the good, irrespective of their provenance, will all sit at the right hand of God; the wicked, whichever their provenance may be, at the left hand and then in the dreadful Hell, while the Saviour will enter the eternal Kingdom with all the good souls.
True religion consists in God's commandments, not in vain pompous sacrifices. It is necessary to obey the precepts of perfect morals, of faultless virtue, to be merciful, to avoid what dishonours man to give up vanities, deceptive divinations, false augurs, the dreams of the wicked, as the sapiential book says, to make use of the gifts of God with justice, that is health, wealth, riches, intellect, power, not to be proud, as pride is a sign of stupidity because man is alive, healthy, rich, wise, powerful as long as God grants him it, not to cherish immoderate desires that often lead one even to commit crime. Summing up, one must live as a man and not as a brute, also out of respect for oneself.
It is easy to descend, it is difficult to rise. But who would like to live in a putrid abyss only because he has fallen into it, and would not try to come out of it climbing back to the flowery summits bright with sunlight? Life of a sinner is placed in an abyss and likewise a life in error. But those who receive the Word of truth and come to the Truth climb to the tops of the Light.
The deeds of men, the true deeds, that is, his behaviour at home, in business, towards his neighbour and servants, are the things that testify: "This man is a servant of the Lord." Because holy deeds are the fruit of true religion.
face2face
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