Do Not Use the Word FATHER??

[GodsGrace]

In Mathew 23:9 Jesus tells us not to call anyone by the name Father...

9“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven."

How can this be understood if the 5th commandment states:

Honor Your Mother and Your Father

Catholics call priests Father.
If we notice what Jesus was telling the crowd around Him, we might understand why this practice does not oppose what Jesus was saying.

1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5“But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6“They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11“But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12“Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

If we cannot call anyone father,,,according to the above we also cannot call anyone:
Rabbi
Father
Leader

Are we also ready to give up those titles?
What is the difference? Jesus put all three titles in the same concept.

Jesus meant that we should not give undue respect and honor to these men, but only to God.

 

[Marymog]

In Mathew 23:9 Jesus tells us not to call anyone by the name Father...

9“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven."

How can this be understood if the 5th commandment states:

Honor Your Mother and Your Father

Catholics call priests Father.
If we notice what Jesus was telling the crowd around Him, we might understand why this practice does not oppose what Jesus was saying.

1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5“But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6“They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11“But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12“Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

If we cannot call anyone father,,,according to the above we also cannot call anyone:
Rabbi
Father
Leader

Are we also ready to give up those titles?
What is the difference? Jesus put all three titles in the same concept.

Jesus meant that we should not give undue respect and honor to these men, but only to God.

Hi GG,

Nearly half the uses of "father" in the Acts of the Apostles appear in Stephen's speech in chapter 7. He refers to the ancestors as fathers and once he addresses his audience as "brothers and fathers." Paul addressed a crowd of Jews in the Temple as "brothers and fathers" (Acts 22:1). The title "father" is given to Jewish religious leaders and is also given to Christian religious leaders.

I certainly don't understand the pushback from Protestants about using the word "father" when properly used.

Mary

 

[Dave L]

Isn't it a case where the Spirit gives life but the letter kills (the meaning)?

 

[CoreIssue]

Hi GG,

Nearly half the uses of "father" in the Acts of the Apostles appear in Stephen's speech in chapter 7. He refers to the ancestors as fathers and once he addresses his audience as "brothers and fathers." Paul addressed a crowd of Jews in the Temple as "brothers and fathers" (Acts 22:1). The title "father" is given to Jewish religious leaders and is also given to Christian religious leaders.

I certainly don't understand the pushback from Protestants about using the word "father" when properly used.

Mary

The answer is simple. In Hebrew your lineage is determined through your father and his father before all the way back to Adam. It is genetic, not spiritual.

As for using brothers, Christ is our brother so through him we are brothers to all others that belong to him.

What they're talking about is a man being your spiritual father, which only Christ is via the holy spirit.

What other religions call their leadership is a moot point. They're not Christians.

 

[Marymog]

The answer is simple. In Hebrew your lineage is determined through your father and his father before all the way back to Adam. It is genetic, not spiritual.

As for using brothers, Christ is our brother so through him we are brothers to all others that belong to him.

What they're talking about is a man being your spiritual father, which only Christ is via the holy spirit.

What other religions call their leadership is a moot point. They're not Christians.

Hi CI.

So when Paul addressed the Jews as "brothers and Fathers" he was talking to fellow Christians (brothers) but who were the "fathers" he was referring to?

In your opinion, what or who is a spiritual father? What is their role?

Mary

 

[Vexatious]

Call no man father? The Apostle Paul referred to himself as a father in the faith (not biological). Jesus himself referred to men with the term "father", biologically. The only thing I can conclude is that Jesus was speaking in hyperbole, such as when he said love your enemies or hate your parents. (That Jesus would say such a thing, even in hyperbole, is enough for me to object to the word being used as a title, as Catholics do.)

Consider that Jesus said to hate your father. Jesus didn't mean to hate your father, but he meant to keep your priorities straight, God always first (which might necessitate hating your father).

(FYI Beware of pretrib liars, including when they speak of lineages, a reflection of their racist idolatry. Lineages have never been relevant, except for kings and priests, and even that is irrelevant now that Jesus is our king and high priest.)

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus meant that we should not give undue respect and honor to these men, but only to God.

No that is NOT what He meant. What He meant was that clerical (for clergy) titles are TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE to Him. Why not keep it simple? The apostles and other Christians called it each other "brother" or "sister" because Christ said "all ye are BRETHREN".

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GG,

Nearly half the uses of "father" in the Acts of the Apostles appear in Stephen's speech in chapter 7. He refers to the ancestors as fathers and once he addresses his audience as "brothers and fathers." Paul addressed a crowd of Jews in the Temple as "brothers and fathers" (Acts 22:1). The title "father" is given to Jewish religious leaders and is also given to Christian religious leaders.

I certainly don't understand the pushback from Protestants about using the word "father" when properly used.

Mary

Agreed. It just seems like just one more thing not to like and to take objection to.

What you've stated above is very important...I'd also bring your attention to:

1 Corinthians 4:14-15
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

I believe Paul is saying that he is a SPIRITUAL father to those to whom he preached.

 

[GodsGrace]

No that is NOT what He meant. What He meant was that clerical (for clergy) titles are TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE to Him. Why not keep it simple? The apostles and other Christians called it each other "brother" or "sister" because Christ said "all ye are BRETHREN".

Paul himself said that HE was a father to his children...
see post no. 8

So should we abolish the title of Rabbi and Leader?

 

[GodsGrace]

Call no man father? The Apostle Paul referred to himself as a father in the faith (not biological). Jesus himself referred to men with the term "father", biologically. The only thing I can conclude is that Jesus was speaking in hyperbole, such as when he said love your enemies or hate your parents. (That Jesus would say such a thing, even in hyperbole, is enough for me to object to the word being used as a title, as Catholics do.)

Consider that Jesus said to hate your father. Jesus didn't mean to hate your father, but he meant to keep your priorities straight, God always first (which might necessitate hating your father).

(FYI Beware of pretrib liars, including when they speak of lineages, a reflection of their racist idolatry. Lineages have never been relevant, except for kings and priests, and even that is irrelevant now that Jesus is our king and high priest.)

Thanks for the last paragraph. I don't bother with pre-trib, post-trib and all that stuff. All I know is that Jesus is coming back one time at the end of EVERYTHING, and that this world has been going through tribulation from the beginning.

As to hyperbole, yes, that could be.

John also addresses believers as "children" ( 1 John) so that would make him their "father".

A priest could be considered a spiritual father and the congregation his "children" that he has under his care.

 

[GodsGrace]

Isn't it a case where the Spirit gives life but the letter kills (the meaning)?

I believe you're right, but could you explain more?

 

[CoreIssue]

Hi CI.

So when Paul addressed the Jews as "brothers and Fathers" he was talking to fellow Christians (brothers) but who were the "fathers" he was referring to?

In your opinion, what or who is a spiritual father? What is their role?

Mary

Give me verses. to look at.

As for spiritual fathers, there are none.

 

[Enoch111]

Paul himself said that HE was a father to his children...

A METAPHORICAL SPIRITUAL FATHER.

Paul could never contradict the teaching of Christ. And Peter called him "brother Paul".

If you were to bring a young person to Christ and disciple her, you would be a metaphorical and spiritual "mother" to that person, but it would be absurd if she called you "mother".

 

[GodsGrace]

A METAPHORICAL SPIRITUAL FATHER.

Paul could never contradict the teaching of Christ. And Peter called him "brother Paul".

If you were to bring a young person to Christ and disciple her, you would be a metaphorical and spiritual "mother" to that person, but it would be absurd if she called you "mother".

Not if I had a position of respect.

For instance, in Acts 7 Stephen refers to Abraham as "our Father" and Paul refers to Isaac as "our Father Isaac". Romans 9:10

I'd also like to consider Mathew 28:10 for the word "leader" or "instructor" or "teacher". Did Jesus not tell the Apostles to go into all the nations and teach everything Jesus had commanded? To teach one must be a teacher.

I do believe that Jesus meant that we are not to put these persons on a pedastel, because only God deserves that type of honor...however, we do have spiritual fathers and catholics like to call theirs father...unless we're also willing to eliminate the title of "Rabbi", I think this becomes a moot point.

 

[Marymog]

Give me verses. to look at.

As for spiritual fathers, there are none.

Ummmm.....are we not talking about the verse I mentioned in post #2?

I'm confused? You want more verses?

 

[Marymog]

Isn't it a case where the Spirit gives life but the letter kills (the meaning)?

I don't understand what you mean

 

[CoreIssue]

Ummmm.....are we not talking about the verse I mentioned in post #2?

I'm confused? You want more verses?

No, I pulled back and found it.

Mathew 23
A Warning Against Hypocrisy
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteriesa]">[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. That

As I said there are no human spiritual fathers. Genetic one's yes.

Passage is pretty clear. Self elevation, hierarchy goal ovation, hypocrisy.

To focus on Catholicism; bowing, kneeling, ring kissing, only they can drink wine or distribute bread, treated like royalty, extravagant and expensive clothes and on and on.

If they follow the rules, they are fathers to no one since they're not supposed to have sex or merry, when the bible says ministers are suppose to be married.

They claim to be so humble but the actions deny it.

Christians can teach, guide, witness, etc. But they cannot give spiritual birth to anyone.

 

[Marymog]

No, I pulled back and found it.

Mathew 23
A Warning Against Hypocrisy
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteriesa]">[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. That

As I said there are no human spiritual fathers. Genetic one's yes.

Passage is pretty clear. Self elevation, hierarchy goal ovation, hypocrisy.

To focus on Catholicism; bowing, kneeling, ring kissing, only they can drink wine or distribute bread, treated like royalty, extravagant and expensive clothes and on and on.

If they follow the rules, they are fathers to no one since they're not supposed to have sex or merry, when the bible says ministers are suppose to be married.

They claim to be so humble but the actions deny it.

Christians can teach, guide, witness, etc. But they cannot give spiritual birth to anyone.

What does all these words have to do with Acts 22:1????

Can you try again? Please?

mary

 

[CoreIssue]

LIR

What does all these words have to do with Acts 22:1????

Can you try again? Please?

mary

Looking at the context of the chapter I highlighted what I think was meant.

As well I believe there was a lot of sarcasm here since they were trying to bring Christ down.

And I believe it fits the catholic hierarchy today.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3962 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
pathvr apparently a root word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pater 5:945,805
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pat-ayr' Noun Masculine
Definition

1. generator or male ancestor
   1. either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents
   2. a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David
      1. fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation
   3. one advanced in years, a senior
2. metaph.
   1. the originator and transmitter of anything
      1. the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself
      2. one who has infused his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds
   2. one who stands in a father's place and looks after another in a paternal way
   3. a title of honour
      1. teachers, as those to whom pupils trace back the knowledge and training they have received
      2. the members of the Sanhedrin, whose prerogative it was by virtue of the wisdom and experience in which they excelled, to take charge of the interests of others
3. God is called the Father
   1. of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
   2. of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector
      1. of spiritual beings and of all men
   3. of Christians, as those who through Christ have been exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father
   4. the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has united to himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also in his own divine nature
      1. by Jesus Christ himself
      2. by the apostles

 

[FHII]

We should not address any Church leader as Father. That is what Jesus was saying. Its not that difficult to understand. Only ONE is your father.

Yes, your biological dad is your father. That's fine. We have fore-fathers as did the Jews. That's fine. But in terms of spirituality... God is the only Father. Isaiah foretold that Jesus is the everlasting Father so calling him father is acceptable.

Paul never called homself father. Not even in 1 Cor 4:15. Properly translated he said, " in Christ Jesus I have begotten you [brought you forth] through the gospel". Hr puts more emphasis on what Jesus and the gospel did than he does on himself.
But he never called himself "father".

No... We aren't to call any man Rabbi either. And if you are going to try to bring up a verse that says otherwise... Be careful!

I hold these views and believe them... But I don't dwell on them. I believe that churches who call their leaders "father" are wrong, but I am more interested in their doctrine... Not what they call themselves.