Do you believe in Hell ?

[Enquirer]

Bill Wiese - 23 minutes in Hell - came to our church here in Johannesburg and gave his testimony.
My wife was here at this very meeting that evening.
Hell is a very real place, do we as Christians truly believe that it exists ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxKRoONrfY

 

[Madad21]

Absolutely!!

Jesus warns about Hell all through the gospels accounts. You kinda get the feeling He doesnt want us to go there.

 

[Azadok]

The hell taught is a lie of Satan , the bible is clear there is no hell , the parable of Lazarus and the rich man describes two sides of heaven for those who are saved with Christ and those who are not with the rich man . There is a place in earth called Tartarus where the fallen angels that kept not their first estate are chained until they're loosed at the fifth trump .

Ezekiel 28 is aout Satan and verse 19 tells us that Satan is brought to flames from within never to be again , this is done at theGreat white throne judgement in front of all Gods children to see and then all the others who are not found written in the book of life will also be thrown into the lake of fire and blotted out completely , with just the smoke of their torment left to rise , the memory of them will also be taken from all those who knew them so it will Beas if they never were .

The teaching of an eternal hell were the unsaved are tortured for eternity is a very sick and twisted teaching that I would think God the Father would take quite personally to those who teach it when the bible is clear that the lake of fire and blotting out is the punishment for the unsaved . The fact many teach this evil is mind boggling to me knowing that God loves his children and wants all to be saved , what kind of Father would torment his children for eternity , Satan would and this is his teaching not Gods .

 

[lforrest]

Yes I believe in hell.

 

[Madad21]

The hell taught is a lie of Satan , the bible is clear there is no hell , the parable of Lazarus and the rich man describes two sides of heaven for those who are saved with Christ and those who are not with the rich man . There is a place in earth called Tartarus where the fallen angels that kept not their first estate are chained until they're loosed at the fifth trump .

Ezekiel 28 is aout Satan and verse 19 tells us that Satan is brought to flames from within never to be again , this is done at theGreat white throne judgement in front of all Gods children to see and then all the others who are not found written in the book of life will also be thrown into the lake of fire and blotted out completely , with just the smoke of their torment left to rise , the memory of them will also be taken from all those who knew them so it will Beas if they never were .

The teaching of an eternal hell were the unsaved are tortured for eternity is a very sick and twisted teaching that I would think God the Father would take quite personally to those who teach it when the bible is clear that the lake of fire and blotting out is the punishment for the unsaved . The fact many teach this evil is mind boggling to me knowing that God loves his children and wants all to be saved , what kind of Father would torment his children for eternity , Satan would and this is his teaching not Gods .

Hi Azadok, good to meet you.

Re; Lazarus and the rich man.

Though Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, and as such it is contended by some to be merely symbolic and not literal, Jesus makes a vivid point in this tale to make no qualms about the nature of the predicament the rich man now finds himself in regards to the punishment. In this small text alone we see the highlighted repetition of words pertaining to torment and agony.

I would argue that regardless of the original intent in this tale ( The tables being turned on the Pharisee belief that the poor and sick are being punished by God and the rich and well to do are the blessed of Gods children.)
The fact that Jesus is very explicit in the details of the form of punishment dished out to the rich man is not by mere consequence or at all symbolic of total annihilation as you would regard as blotting out in this particular parable.
I would also observe that Jesus has given the poor man a name in this parable, but the rich man is without.

Luke 16
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment

 

[Shirley]

The hell taught is a lie of Satan , the bible is clear there is no hell , the parable of Lazarus and the rich man describes two sides of heaven for those who are saved with Christ and those who are not with the rich man . There is a place in earth called Tartarus where the fallen angels that kept not their first estate are chained until they're loosed at the fifth trump .

Ezekiel 28 is aout Satan and verse 19 tells us that Satan is brought to flames from within never to be again , this is done at theGreat white throne judgement in front of all Gods children to see and then all the others who are not found written in the book of life will also be thrown into the lake of fire and blotted out completely , with just the smoke of their torment left to rise , the memory of them will also be taken from all those who knew them so it will Beas if they never were .

The teaching of an eternal hell were the unsaved are tortured for eternity is a very sick and twisted teaching that I would think God the Father would take quite personally to those who teach it when the bible is clear that the lake of fire and blotting out is the punishment for the unsaved . The fact many teach this evil is mind boggling to me knowing that God loves his children and wants all to be saved , what kind of Father would torment his children for eternity , Satan would and this is his teaching not Gods .

Great Post. The Bible does not teach eternal torment. Death is eternal. They will be remembered no more!

 

[Enquirer]

To those who do not believe in hell ...

Do you believe Jesus ?
Do you believe he spoke the truth ... sometimes or all of the time ?
Do you believe Jesus was mistaken in some things, maybe he was confused or just maybe he got the Hebrew wrong ?
Perhaps he needed to study more, you know like go to Varsity and get his doctorate ?
Can he be trusted ?

Well I believe that Jesus spoke the truth ALL OF THE TIME.
Jesus said and I quote Mark 9:43

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

He was not talking in a parable here !

 

[Dan57]

Hell is better translated "Sheol" in the old testament and "Hades" in the new testament. "Tararus" is where fallen angels are held until judgment. Jesus also used the word "Gehenna". I think all these represent the grave for lost souls, its that other side of paradise. Many acquaint Hell with the Lake of Fire, when its actually a prejudgment destination.

 

[Angelina]

Yes I believe that hell exists and that there are souls being tormented there day and night. I believe that hell and the lake of fire were made for the angels who disobeyed God's commands but that humans are also destined to hell and eventually, the lake of fire because they believe the lies from Satan and because they do not want to repent of their sins and be saved. Revelation 20: 10, 14, 15.

 

[Bronzesnake]

(Leviticus 18:1-30)


27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

This chapter uses figurative language, as a warning against adultery. It is pointed out that it is equally sinful to look upon a person with lust in your heart, as it is to actually engage physically.
The point is made that, if you continue to "look" upon others with lust, you are in just as much danger, a someone who has engaged in physical lust. So, it would be better if you should pluck out your eye, rather than end up in a REAL LITERAL Hell. The message is figuratively overstated, in order to drive the seriousness of the sin of adultery and lust.

If "HELL" was figurative, then what's the point of this chapter? That's like telling a bank robber if he doesn't stop robbing banks, a man made of cheese, onions and pickles will send him a scathing invisible letter.

You could make a strong, literal point by warning the bank robber that it would be better for him to live in a cardboard box, eat stale bread and drink cat urine, than get sent to the gallows. Figurative language, based on a literal, real consequence.

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

No figurative language in that verse is there?
Yes, Hell is real, and yes, those who go there remain alive and suffer day and night forever and forever.

Welcome new guy.

John

 

[Azadok]

Hi Azadok, good to meet you.

Re; Lazarus and the rich man.

Though Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, and as such it is contended by some to be merely symbolic and not literal, Jesus makes a vivid point in this tale to make no qualms about the nature of the predicament the rich man now finds himself in regards to the punishment. In this small text alone we see the highlighted repetition of words pertaining to torment and agony.

I would argue that regardless of the original intent in this tale ( The tables being turned on the Pharisee belief that the poor and sick are being punished by God and the rich and well to do are the blessed of Gods children.)
The fact that Jesus is very explicit in the details of the form of punishment dished out to the rich man is not by mere consequence or at all symbolic of total annihilation as you would regard as blotting out in this particular parable.
I would also observe that Jesus has given the poor man a name in this parable, but the rich man is without.

Luke 16
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment

The parable is most likely a real life situation that Jesus is explaining to them , regardless the bible isclear there is no hell only the lake of fire where those destined for it since the foundation of this age will go at the great white throne judgment at the end of the millenial rein of Jesus . Read the verses from Ezekiel 28 below , they're about Satan and his final demise , pay particular attention to verses 13-19 .


1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
20 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

 

[Madad21]

The parable is most likely a real life situation that Jesus is explaining to them , regardless the bible isclear there is no hell only the lake of fire where those destined for it since the foundation of this age will go at the great white throne judgment at the end of the millenial rein of Jesus . Read the verses from Ezekiel 28 below , they're about Satan and his final demise , pay particular attention to verses 13-19 .


1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
20 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Thank you for replying!!

I appreciate the Ezekiel verse, and am aware of it but I thank you for bringing back to my attention and your patience with me.

As far as real hell is concerned I must admit with me the jury is still out as to certain particulars about hell itself. And Im not really interested in convincing people weather or not it exists. Faith in Christ is all that matters to me and as long as you love Jesus and accept him as your Savior then I will happily call you my brother regardless of your stance on hell.

However as a Bible nut, what got my attention is your use of the parable in Luke saying " the bible is clear there is no hell , the parable of Lazarus and the rich man describes two sides of heaven for those who are saved with Christ and those who are not with the rich man "

The reason I did that is because this parable has come it to play many times before concerning the nature of Hell, but the details I pointed out in it are always over looked. Like the repetition of the rich man being in torment and agony, Jesus is very particular about this aspect of the rich mans predicament?
These things should never be overlooked, especially repetition in the gospel, it means there is a reason for that detail, a point Jesus is really driving home here.
It also says in that parable that the rich man was looking up at Lazarus and Abraham, not from another side of heaven. there is a massive chasm separating the two and I think its natural that people assume that the rich man is looking across it, not up.
I have actually spent a tremendous amount of time debating this particular passage with JW's who discount the entire parable as merely a tale. something they often do when things arnt going their way.
How can we reconcile these details?

Thanks for your time

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Bronzesnake]

Hey brother "LookUp"

First of all, I really appreciate the civilized tone in your posts, thank you.
What's your name brother?

I don't use wiki, it's notoriously inaccurate most times, and plain goofy at other times.

I believe you may have missed my point.
Simply put - The chapter in question, uses figurative language, to warn about a real, literal place.

Umm, I have discovered, many years ago (I'm old) that if I'm unsure as to what a certain scripture, or verse, or word means in the Bible, I don't place my own personal interpretation in, at least, I try very hard not to.

So, in the chapter we're discussing, there is figurative language used, to relay a literal message. The meaning in a nut shell is, that anything is better than ending up in a literal Hell. For example; in this case, we are told that it would be better to lose an eye, than end up in a literal Hell.
The chapter is not advocating amputation...it's over emphasizing, using figurative language - in this scripture, against adultery, and lust.

The true question in this discussion is - is Hell real?

So, in the case of Leviticus 18:1-30 you're suggesting that Hell is being used as figurative - I'm assuming you're basing your assertion on the fact that there is obvious figurative language used in the specific verses right?

OK, so if we want to discover weather Hell is a real, literal place, then we must look at more scripture, in order to find examples which corroborate that either A) Hell is figurative or, B) Hell is a real, literal place of eternal torment.

OK, so the example I posted, actually shows that Hell is real, and that unsaved go there for eternity.
Here it is again -

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


In the example above, there is a description of a time after the thousand year rein (a literal event) when satan is let out of the "bottomless Pit" and once again, satan foolishly attempts to goad God by gathering up an army for battle. So God boots satan into Hell, along with Hell's very first eternal occupants, the false prophet and the beast. There, they will be tormented day and night for ever, and ever.
Now, how can we come up with any reasonable meaning from this (above) example?

Matthew 2

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into

the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I'll leave you with a final thought. If there truly in no Hell, then God sent His Son do die for nothing,

Take care brother







I'm going to address the statement I highlighted in red first - Here, and in other places in scripture, we see a curious thing. satan is released from his prison.
Wow, where's that? Check this out -

Jude 1

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

So, the Bible interprets itself.

 

[Enquirer]

@ those opposed to the idea of an eternal hell.

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. (Mk 9:43)

I don't believe this is figurative at all, and I also don't believe that Jesus expects a bunch of amputees, one eyed etc., to enter heaven
either.
Jesus is saying that it is preferable to rather enter heaven that way than to go to hell.
Rather lose a limb and make it, than go to a place of unquenchable fire and be whole.
That's it.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is
the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up
the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according
to what they had done.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:11 - 15)

Nothing figurative about that at all.

Now you can choose to not believe that, that's your business but that's as straightforward as it gets.
If you don't believe that then how can you believe in anything the Bible says, I mean then we can cook up some real interesting theory
as far as the rest of God's word is concerned and end up theorising the Bible away.
No, God is not a liar He meant what He said and said what He meant.

Go to hell or go to heaven ... the choice is yours.

 

[The seekers]

Hell was originally intended for the devil and his angels.
read Matthew 25 v 41

In the book of revelation both death and the place of the dead are cast into the lake of fire which is called the second death.
Revelation 20 v 14

Jesus warns us that if we choose the way of satan that we will ultimately join him.

 

[Madad21]

Heya Guys, It looks as though Aza's not going to help me out here, but Im still interested if anyone here can help me unravel this little conundrum.

Personally like I say in this post, I dont really care if a person believes in hell, as long as they have Christ, the only time I think it would matter is maybe in the answering of questions based on "Gods righteous justice" (for lack of a better description )

However I am interested in this parable in Luke. maybe someone without a belief in Hell can help me fathom this parable, because surely you have come across it and reconciled it somehow to be able to maintain the belief you have.

Hi Azadok

As far as real hell is concerned I must admit with me the jury is still out as to certain particulars about hell itself. And Im not really interested in convincing people weather or not it exists. Faith in Christ is all that matters to me and as long as you love Jesus and accept him as your Savior then I will happily call you my brother regardless of your stance on hell.

However as a Bible nut, what got my attention is your use of the parable in Luke saying " the bible is clear there is no hell , the parable of Lazarus and the rich man describes two sides of heaven for those who are saved with Christ and those who are not with the rich man "

The reason I did that is because this parable has come it to play many times before concerning the nature of Hell, but the details I pointed out in it are always over looked. Like the repetition of the rich man being in torment and agony, Jesus is very particular about this aspect of the rich mans predicament?
These things should never be overlooked, especially repetition in the gospel, it means there is a reason for that detail, a point Jesus is really driving home here.
It also says in that parable that the rich man was looking up at Lazarus and Abraham, not from another side of heaven. there is a massive chasm separating the two and I think its natural that people assume that the rich man is looking across it, not up.
I have actually spent a tremendous amount of time debating this particular passage with JW's who discount the entire parable as merely a tale. something they often do when things arnt going their way.
How can we reconcile these details?

Thanks for your time

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Madad21]

Greetings Mazda

In terms of "skilful wisdom" this parable is without doubt (in my mind) the Lord finest and greatest of all parables in the Bible. Not because of its subject matter but how the Master draws on the false teaching of the day and turns it on its head for the unprepared Pharisee.

How would you like me to approach this with you?
Would you like to step through the parable verse by verse? Or provide a general overview of its meaning?

Lookup.

Ha ha I wonder who you were in a former life, good to have ya back!

Mate any style you want its your show, however as far as the parable itself goes im all good with the meaning and purpose behind it but I would love for someone to address the points I raised re Jesus's repetition of torment and agony throughout the passage. if you feel like it.
Thanks bro

 

[Madad21]

(Ha)....Maybe Legion "For I am many"

Re your queries do you believe this parable is an actual view into life after death?

If you are to attempt to understand the parable and discover its interpratation one would be in darkness if they thought Jesus was discussing life after death.

Best you reassure me before we start.

Lookup.

Thats a bit of a set up bro, your already trying to cast the assumption that Christ isnt talking about what life after death is going to be like for these guys before yourve even started.
The story's about how these Pharisees think and operate, the life after death part is the warning of what could happen if they continue in that thinking.
The parable will only be a tale in the way it may or may not involve two hypothetical characters, both of which personify exactly the attitudes and cultural back grounds of the people in that province and of that time. And the other aspect making it a parable is the conversation taking place between Abraham and the rich man in which Jesus presents the reality of the rich mans predicament.
If Christs not talking about life after death then there would have been plenty of other ways he could have illustrated to the Pharisees the flaw in their logic.
And just to clarify Im not looking for you to teach me how to understand the parable or its interpretation, but thanks anyway.
Im merely trying to fathom how someone with a "No such place as hell" veiw would reconcile Jesus' continued reference to agony and torment if there is no such place.

 

[Bronzesnake]

Hi Shane.

I am familiar with the historical context of Gehenna.
I'm not sure what you are actually implying.
Are you saying there is no eternal literal Hell? If that's what you believe, then what is the point of Jesus's sacrifice, and why would anyone have to accept Jesus into their hearts, for the remission of sins?

There are those, who actually believe that everyone, regardless of who they believe in, or what they believe in, are going to live eternally in a place called, or similar to Heaven.

Are you suggesting that, Gehenna has a historical meaning, and therefore it cannot be referring to a literal Hell?

Jesus spoke about the horrors and reality of hell many times.

Matthew 23:33 - Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

“Depart from me,” He will say to the lost souls at His coming judgment, “into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). It is called a “lake of fire” by Christ in John’s vision of Him on His great white throne, where He will have to say: “But the fearful, and unbelieving, . . . and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).

If we are to take anything the Lord says literally, then there are some key descriptive explanations in the verses above.
PREPARED - to literally make ready.
LAKE OF FIRE - how can we understand this any other way except literally?
THE LAKE WHICH BURNETH WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE - Again, this is literal.

Take care brother.
John

 

[Madad21]

Not a set up Mazda. If we are not able to discuss the historical context of this passage in terms of what the hearers (especially the disciples) at that time took away from the parable, then we are short changing ourselves. What you are saying is I can only view this parable through a predetermined set of prisms which enables me to draw to my own understanding. The same works in reverse for me, doesnt it? So its our approach which is essential in dealing with his words.


Do you seek to reduce the relevance of the parable by stating it’s just a tale, was this the Lords intention for many of his story’s with hidden meaning? I mean, would you go up to the Master and say "This parable is just a tale and holds no relevance at all to what is my reality today?"

I doubt very much is would be your approach.

Does Jesus always teach in literal terms?

Ok first my name is Madad purity and it always was back when you first thought you would play silly mind games with me.
I dont need to do that to people, I have the the strength of the word behind me so I dont need to use hocus pocus, to throw people off guard, but if you think it helps you then go for your life.

When Jesus is talking in parable, he is speaking in illustration, there is an element of story telling in order to get His point across its not a difficult concept to grasp. Most people who like to avoid the facts of this particular parable like to use this well known argument to disassociate fact from fiction to suit their own end. Im just establishing which areas I feel would be story for the sake of illustration and which would be the facts or point Jesus is trying to make. After all purity it is called a parable not an account. so you need not be so condescending.