Does God Create Evil or Not?

[bbyrd009]

"

• The Sadducees maintained that God does not commit evil, and although most people will intuitively agree with the Sadducees, the issue is deceptively tricky. Saying that God does not commit evil is the same as stating that there is someone or something else responsible for all the evil in the world. This intuitive bi-polar reality model is pagan (Zoroastrian, to be precise) and also dictates the intuitive truth that darkness is the opposite of light.
• 
  
• The Bible sports a mono-polar reality model, which insists that God is the doer of all the doings. This is easily explained by noting that darkness is not the opposite of light but the absence of it — light comes from the sun but darkness has no source, and when light enters a dark room, no opposing substance is pushed away or replaced. What may be perceived as evil on a societal level is quite the same as physical pain on an individual level.
• 
  
• It's essentially an instrument that is required to plot a course towards a pain-free and evil-free human existence. Hence the tree of knowledge of good and evil could exist in the middle of a perfect paradise (Genesis 2:9), the Lord could send an evil spirit to Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) and declare through Isaiah that He is the One and Only, who creates light as well as darkness and good as well as evil (Isaiah 45:7)."
• The amazing name Sadducees: meaning and etymology

 

[aspen]

No. God does not create evil. The sun doesnt create shadows either.

 

[Taken]

Does? No.
Did God create evil? Yes.

Isa 45:7
I form the light
..and create darkness
I make peace,
..and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.

What IS EVIL?
It is KNOWLEDGE, adverse to Good knowledge.

Gen 2:9
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is good for FOOD:
The tree of life ALSO in the midst of the garden,
AND the tree of KNOWLEGE OF
Good and Evil.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[n2thelight]

Does? No.
Did God create evil? Yes.

Isa 45:7
I form the light
..and create darkness
I make peace,
..and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I made peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

This verse has been badly translated from the Hebrew text. Lets take a close look at two words here, the words "create", and "evil". The verb "create" or "bara" in the Hebrew requires the rendering "to bring about". This word has to be determined in the context of it's use.

The word "evil" is never rendered "sin", but "calamity". God brings calamity into our lives as the inevitable consequences of the sin that is committed. God is saying that if you chose to bring sin in your life, you can count on the calamity that will follow. God has not created the sin, or evil, but God has created the individuals that have turned to evil. Then when you get out of line, God provides the distress within your life to show you that you are out of line, and by that calamity you know it is time to repent and get back into line.

If you are a child of God, you will pick up on those times when you are out of the will of God, and see the distress for what it is and thank Him for it. You will get back to where you should be, and then God will straighten you path and break down those bars and gates that are in your way. However it is all up to you.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Matthew Henry commentented on this passage saying:-'
There is no God beside Jehovah. There is nothing done without him. He makes peace, put here for all good; and creates evil, not the evil of sin, but the evil of punishment. He is the Author of all that is true, holy, good, or happy; and evil, error, and misery, came into the world by his permission, through the wilful apostacy of his creatures.'

We need to remember that evil is the abscence of good, so God does not creat evil, but that he will permit evil to happen or withdraw his good.
This is neve malicious but always with the purpose of bring people to a saving knowledge of him.

 

[Taken]

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I made peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

This verse has been badly translated from the Hebrew text. Lets take a close look at two words here, the words "create", and "evil". The verb "create" or "bara" in the Hebrew requires the rendering "to bring about". This word has to be determined in the context of it's use.

I don't find it as "badly translated".

The word "evil" is never rendered "sin",

I Never mentioned sin.

but "calamity".

I'll stick with Evil is adversity to Good.

God brings calamity into our lives as the inevitable consequences of the sin that is committed.

Disagree, on that narrow view.

The Purpose for "calamity", "hardships", difficult times for ANY individual....IS ABOUT Testing....NOT punishment for Sin.

God intervenes in mens Lives...

Unbelievers, that they may experience despair and Turn to Him...

Believers, that they may experience despair and Trust to Commit to Him...

Born Again Believers, that they may experience despair and Discover the depth of their OWN Faith and Standing WITH God.

God is saying that if you chose to bring sin in your life, you can count on the calamity that will follow.

If that were soley true, it would make some Scriptures False.

What DID Job do, to have to experience "calamity"?
What DID Jesus do, to have to experience
"Calamity"?

The world is in Chaos. Men WILL experience the hardships, chaos, calamity, adversities toward God...
Men who do not believe, men who believe but are not yet saved, and men who are Saved and Born Again.....and it is WHO they turn TO, that IS their OWN Test for their OWN benefit to recognize WHO they Turn to.

IOW - men are not tested for Gods benefit...
The child, the student, the man is always tested for His own benefit to recognize his OWN standing....
Standing WITH God.
Standing still debating, sort of WITH God.
Standing WITHOUT God.

God has not created the sin, or evil,

Sin and Evil are concepts of what is Adverse TO God, who is Holy and Pure.

Yes, inasmuch as God has made that which IS called Holy, Pure, Good, With....God.

God has also made that which IS called Evil, Wicked, Sin, unholy, Corrupt, Without...God.

One without the Other, eliminates the option of FREEWILL Choice.

Every created angel and every created man have Freewill to Choose....

And God had made available WHAT a man CAN choose....
WITH Him...which equals, good and holy.
OR
Without Him...which equals, corrupt and evil.

but God has created the individuals that have turned to evil.

How could individuals turn to SOMETHING, that God did not create?

Then when you get out of line, God provides the distress within your life to show you that you are out of line, and by that calamity you know it is time to repent and get back into line.

Again, you leave out of the equation...
Men who do not believe.
Men who are saved and born again.

Don't "they" also experience "calamity"?
Of course they do.

[QUOTEIf you are a child of God,[/QUOTE]

I am a son of God. My sins are all forgiven.
There is no faultering, getting out of line...
Precisely Because a "son of God" has chosen to submit himself "TO" the Lords INDWELLING Spirit, who DOES the KEEPING of the man;
Forever acceptable unto the Lord.

Such a man...Naturally born;

Has the natural trees to eat from to fill his natural stomach, for as long as his natural life continues.
Has experienced the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil;

Such a man....Converted from Natural birth, to a birth from Gods Seed;
IS now and forever experiencing the Tree of Life;

Gen 2:9
THREE threes.
1) fruit baring trees, ie. good for food
2) tree of good and evil, ie. tree of knowledge
3) tree of Life, ie. forever Life.

Every man experiences the first two trees.
Only a few men shall experience the tree of Life.

you will pick up on those times when you are out of the will of God, and see the distress for what it is and thank Him for it. You will get back to where you should be, and then God will straighten you path and break down those bars and gates that are in your way. However it is all up to you.

God provides the choices.
Mankind wavers, until he makes the choices.
God sustains a mans choice.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Matthew Henry commentented on this passage saying:-'
There is no God beside Jehovah.

Agree

There is nothing done without him. He makes peace, put here for all good;

Agree

and creates evil,

Agree.

the evil of punishment.

Disagree.

Huh? Pay attention to what one is saying.
And verify it with Scripture.

Does the Lord Himself teach to justly punish, and that He justly punishes?

So then; calling something of punishment evil is a bland statement without clarification, and makes what the Lord sanctions and the Lord does...evil, which is false.

Punishment standing alone, is simply a consequence.

Just punishment is NOT evil.
Unjust punishment CAN be evil.

He is the Author of all that is true, holy, good, or happy;

Agree.

and evil, error, and misery, came into the world by his permission, through the wilful apostacy of his creatures.'

Again, omitting the pertinent Facts.

There was NO CHOICE for man to DO evil, until God made the KNOWLEDGE of Evil available to mankind....

Which God DID, in the garden, when God Himself placed a TREE called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil....and Warned mankind to AVOID that Tree....yet left the man with the mans FREEWILL to ignore God and look upon such tree, and take from such tree to EAT from it, and Become Opened to EVIL.
Remember God was Already FEEDING mankind GOOD. Now that mankind ate from the Tree of Knowledge OF Good and Evil...
Mankind is open to ALL KNOWLEDGE, of Good and Evil, and now must CHOOSE between what is Good and what is Evil.

We need to remember that evil is the abscence of good,

Disagree.
We need to remember it was ONE Tree whereby BOTH good and evil Knowlege was present in the Tree.

For a man to have BOTH good and evil Knowldge is for a man to BE Like God who has also has Good and Evil Knowledge.
Gen 3:22

so God does not creat evil,

Yes, He did.
Isa 45:4. "I the Lord...create evil".

but that he will permit evil to happen or withdraw his good.
This is neve malicious but always with the purpose of bring people to a saving knowledge of him.

The Lord making good and evil KNOWLEDGE, is not Evil.

The Created; ie. angels,
The Created; ie, mankind;
Acting on the evil Knowledge Via the Created's own Choice, is that which becomes evil attributed to that individual.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

No. God does not create evil. The sun doesnt create shadows either.

and yet "evil" is a value judgement, and shadows disappear with no light, so...

 

[bbyrd009]

Does? No.
Did God create evil? Yes.

my...reaction here is "Understand I AM."
+ i guess "God doesn't change."

I the LORD do all these things.

present tense, imo

What IS EVIL?
It is KNOWLEDGE, adverse to Good knowledge.

hmm.

Doesn't God make this knowledge available to us?

Gen 2:9
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is good for FOOD:
The tree of life ALSO in the midst of the garden,
AND the tree of KNOWLEGE OF
Good and Evil.

yup, He sure does, huh

 

[aspen]

and yet "evil" is a value judgement, and shadows disappear with no light, so...

Shadows disappear with more light......

Evil is only a value judgement from a human perspective, based on how much something benefits us. From the point of view of absolute goodness, evil is quantitative - the misuse of goodness is measurable.

 

[aspen]

God does not have to create evil to use it in order to test or teach us - we’ve created enough of it for Him to use. Natural consequence is the wisest of teachers

 

[bbyrd009]

Shadows disappear with more light...

good point lol

Evil is only a value judgement from a human perspective, based on how much something benefits us. From the point of view of absolute goodness, evil is quantitative - the misuse of goodness is measurable.

i might be able to toss some darts at this after a nap

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"

• The Sadducees maintained that God does not commit evil, and although most people will intuitively agree with the Sadducees, the issue is deceptively tricky. Saying that God does not commit evil is the same as stating that there is someone or something else responsible for all the evil in the world. This intuitive bi-polar reality model is pagan (Zoroastrian, to be precise) and also dictates the intuitive truth that darkness is the opposite of light.
• 
  
• The Bible sports a mono-polar reality model, which insists that God is the doer of all the doings. This is easily explained by noting that darkness is not the opposite of light but the absence of it — light comes from the sun but darkness has no source, and when light enters a dark room, no opposing substance is pushed away or replaced. What may be perceived as evil on a societal level is quite the same as physical pain on an individual level.
• 
  
• It's essentially an instrument that is required to plot a course towards a pain-free and evil-free human existence. Hence the tree of knowledge of good and evil could exist in the middle of a perfect paradise (Genesis 2:9), the Lord could send an evil spirit to Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) and declare through Isaiah that He is the One and Only, who creates light as well as darkness and good as well as evil (Isaiah 45:7)."
• The amazing name Sadducees: meaning and etymology

Romans 9:20-23
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Who made the vessels of wrath?

Romans 9:16-17
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. [17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

"Fitted to destruction" it is what the vessel of wrath was created to do which is: to bring about destruction.

 

[aspen]

VictoryinJesus

I’ve noticed your consistant use of scripture in your posts. It is often thoughtful and insightful. It has made a positive impression on me. Thanks

 

[bbyrd009]

Evil is only a value judgement from a human perspective, based on how much something benefits us.

this suggests to me that there is no example of "evil" that all humans would agree to; which might be true, dunno, just trying out some rephrasing here first

the misuse of goodness is measurable.

seems to argue against that, so i put it here

From the point of view of absolute goodness, evil is quantitative

could you rephrase this? ty
"From the pov of God, evil is ______."

 

[bbyrd009]

Who made the vessels of wrath?

i agree, but also who declared them such is i think a valuable Q, as "What if?" in there even maybe alludes to

"Fitted to destruction" it is what the vessel of wrath was created to do which is: to bring about destruction.

i have to agree--disregarding the What If for a moment--but nonetheless we and even Scripture posits these vessels as deserving of judgement; so, a dichotomy; iow how can a vessel serving its purpose be deserving of judgement?

 

[aspen]

this suggests to me that there is no example of "evil" that all humans would agree to; which might be true, dunno, just trying out some rephrasing here first

Yes. Absolutely! This is the problem. My opinion of the Fall of humanity fits in with this idea. A&E ate the fruit and declared it ‘good to eat’ which was an opinion in conflict with absolute truth - God declared it to be ‘not good to eat’. God doesn’t have an opinion because he doesn’t have an ego/false self. He only generates Truth. Our opinion is solely rooted in our false self - experience is our true self. God calls us back to the Garden - back to experience and unity.

Opinions are part of the armor we wear - they divide and tribalize us. This sounds anti-intellectual at first, but it is not - science for example is not based on opinion - it is based on patterns of experience.

Religion should be based on repeated experience as well, but more than often, it is rooted in what we think we know is true - we just keep eating the fruit and marking our territory with our opinions.

 

[Helen]

God created man...and God gave man choice.
God IS...and everything else....is not.

 

[aspen]

God created man...and God gave man choice.
God IS...and everything else....is not.

But the correct function of choice is to choose between the elements of God’s Good Creation; instead, we have misused our power of choice, applying it to choosing between experiencing God’s Good Creation and misusing it. Determining good and evil is a scam - everything in creation is Good unless it is broken or misused - our opinion doesn’t alter this in any way.

 

[Taken]

my...reaction here is "Understand I AM."
+ i guess "God doesn't change."
present tense, imo

hmm.

Doesn't God make this knowledge available to us?

yup, He sure does, huh

God does not Change, past, present, future.
That was not in question.

What God DOES and WHEN, is at His pleasure.

Of course God makes knowledge available to us.

God IS the possessor of ALL knowledge.

The KEY is: At Gods Pleasure...
Some of Gods KNOWLEDGE is GIVEN...
to a specific man, or a host of men;
And
Some of Gods KNOWLEDGE is AVAILABLE... for men to TAKE.

And the RECEIVER of Gods Knowledge...
Have the option to Have or Take His Knowledge;
Keep it, remember it, use it....or not.

God Bless,
Taken