Does God Exist

[univac]

You may of read this beforeThis is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen. It's an explanation other people will understand. A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about many things and various subjects. When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: "I don't believe that God exists.""Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn'texist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving a God who would allow all of these things."The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt! The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist." "How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a barber and I just worked on you!" "No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside." "Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me.""Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.God Blessmeaning reconciliation creation

 

[Truth_Teller]

Excellent point!!!I salute your post, mate!!!One of my favourite posts on Board!!!God bless you as well!!!

 

[Lunar]

So when babies die in childbirth, it's because the baby "didn't come to God?" When a person is born with a horrible defect, it's because he "didn't come to God?" Plagues and earthquakes happen because we "don't come to God?"You can't attribute every evil to mankind's choices.

 

[Shornaal]

The idea of God killing babies makes this religion much more interesting.If only the preachers focused on the grim and dark parts of the bible I would have joined the church a long time ago. Bring back the crusades, Inquisition and God murdering firstborn children.

 

[univac]

(Lunar;54606)
1: So when babies die in childbirth, it's because the baby "didn't come to God?" 2: When a person is born with a horrible defect, it's because he "didn't come to God?"3: Plagues and earthquakes happen because we "don't come to God?"4: You can't attribute every evil to mankind's choices.
1 No its because they go to God they are sinless.2 One who is born blind and deaf can't see corruption or hear corruption can they? In return they know not corruption but we do.The one who is deformed doe;st love themself in vain do they? but is of humble heart but they will know God within themselves.3 Most diffidently, are we not parasites on the earth? or are we antibodies for the earth? What happens when you are very sick for example ( Cancer?) do you go and seek medical help?and Why? Because you don't won't to die but to be healed. How do they treat this decease? For ever action is there a equal reaction., is this earth that we were created from any different? The bible tells us that God created us from the dust of the earth not dirt but the earth elements .What is the means for healing the earth? Certainly not mankind efforts loll, as we are the parasites and have become a decease on the earth like Cancer. Read The Bible and ask God to understand to be understood through Jesus Christ as I did once to.And you will be very surprised what follows. Don’t be arrogant nor ignorant just put your hope in being answered and you will not be answered by man kind but by God holy spirit himself through Christ Jesus.4 Yes deception is followed by lies for the purpose of theft, What’s followed after theft ? Slandering of the truth is it not, followed by none other Hate for the purpose of destruction , What is followed after hate but only injury which leads to death. Who causes all this? And for what reason, For self domination, Self image. To make a long example short the answer is the reason for deception ------is for self imageDoes mankind cause this? And in the Bible states for ever though that is not from God is Satan, This is explained as well in the bible that the father of all lies is Satan and he created himself in his own image.God is the energy that creates all light/life of all in the universe, as we are all little lights (seeds) of energy that through the reconciliation (Jesus Christ by the holy spirit) become one light in him for himThat’s why it is said the earth is a farm yard that produces fruit only good fruit excepted and the bad fruit will be thrown away and burnt for the harvest is coming soon, Revelations be ready.What is good fruit, Pick up a Bible and turn to Galatians 5:22:23For the meaning of life: Is to bear good fruit 10 fold or hundred fold for the purpose of increasing light in the space of mind of God almighty .Hope you will reason with God to understand to be understood for your sake and not reflect, for we are living in the age of choice.God bless

 

[Lunar]

(univac;54757)
1 No its because they go to God they are sinless.
I hope you are not suggesting that there is nothing bad about a baby's death because it will go to heaven anyway.(univac)
2 One who is born blind and deaf can't see corruption or hear corruption can they?
Again, I hope you are not arguing that it would be better for us to all be born blind and deaf. Also, that is not every type of disability that exists. What about people who are crippled, or mentally retarded, or have genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs or cystic fibrosis? Surely you can't disguise those as some sort of blessing; they clearly experience corruption in spite of their hardship.(univac)
3 Most diffidently, are we not parasites on the earth? or are we antibodies for the earth?
I don't understand how this relates to what I was saying.As for the rest of your post, it is mostly just preaching and doesn't really answer my objections. I have been there and done that with respect to the Bible, so I don't think it will be any different this time just because you said so.

 

[univac]

You said "So when babies die in childbirth, it's because the baby didn't come to God?"I said " No" its because they go to God they are sinless.You said "I hope you are not suggesting that there is nothing bad about a baby's death" because it will go to heaven anyway.How did you get this from what I said "there is nothing bad about a baby's death"?????? There"s nothing bad about death but only saddness. So how can it be bad? I said "One who is born blind and deaf can't see corruption or hear corruption can they?You said "Again, I hope you are not arguing that it would be better for us to all be born blind and deaf. How did you get this from what I said "it would be better for us to all be born blind"?You still have:nt answered the Question.You said "Also, that is not every type of disability that exists. What about people who are crippled, or mentally retarded, or have genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs or cystic fibrosis? Surely you can't disguise those as some sort of blessing; they clearly experience corruption in spite of their hardship". I said "The one who is deformed doe;st love themself in vain do they?" But is of humble heart, but they will know God within themselves.You said "Plagues and earthquakes happen because we "don't come to God?"I said "Most diffidently, are we not parasites on the earth? or are we antibodies for the earth?What happens when you are very sick for example ( Cancer?) do you go and seek medical help?and Why? Because you don't won't to die but to be healed.How do they treat this decease?For every action is there a equal reaction., is this earth that we were created from any different?The bible tells us that God created us from the dust of the earth not dirt but the earth elements .What is the means for healing the earth? Certainly not mankind efforts loll, as we are the parasites and have become a decease on the earth like Cancer. My answer to your question" is yes" because we didn;t come to God.you said "I don't understand how this relates to what I was saying".As for the rest of your post, it is mostly just preaching and doesn't really answer my objections. I have been there and done that with respect to the Bible, so I don't think it will be any different this time just because you said so.Your choiceGod bless

 

[Alpha and Omega]

Lunar, what would make you believe in God?

 

[Lunar]

(univac;54996)
How did you get this from what I said "there is nothing bad about a baby's death"??????
I stated that it was not because of a personal rejection of God that babies die in childbirth, and that this was not an evil that had anything to do with mankind's choices. Your only response was to say that they go straight to God (the implication being that because they go straight to God, no evil had occurred). Either you were implying that there was no evil in a baby's death because they go straight to God, or you did not answer my question. And when I see you ask again in this post(univac)
There"s nothing bad about death but only saddness. So how can it be bad?
It certainly seems as though you are saying that. Just again, you asked how death could be bad. I consider the answer to that question to be tautological. (univac)
How did you get this from what I said "it would be better for us to all be born blind"?
That's the only way I saw to interpret it; any other interpretation would not have answered my question at all. I said that it was not because of personal rejection of God that people were born disabled, and that this is clearly an evil that has nothing to do with mankind's choices; you answered that they cannot experience corruption (the implication, as I understood it, being that since they could not experience corruption, no evil had actually occurred.)(univac)
I said "The one who is deformed doe;st love themself in vain do they?" But is of humble heart, but they will know God within themselves.
Again, you seem to be implying that these genetic diseases are some sort of benefit in disguise (because a deformed person is more likely to know God?) This is, frankly, offensive, both to the suffering that these people feel because of their disabilities, and also offensive intellectually, due to the large number of non-Christians who also suffer from these diseases. They clearly didn't help those people to know God; all it caused them was suffering.(Alpha and Omega)
Lunar, what would make you believe in God?
First and foremost, concrete empirical evidence of his existence.But, barring that, a more sufficient explanation of the problem of evil than the one that has been offered in this thread, as well as a proper explanation that accounts for the numerous holes and inconsistencies in the bible and its unfulfilled prophecies.

 

[univac]

First and foremost, concrete empirical evidence of his existence. But, barring that, a more sufficient explanation of the problem of evil than the one that has been offered in this thread. As a believer in God through Christ Jesus ,I don't see death as bad but sad, for those whom grief and for those dead who burry their dead. There is a reason I say this:We are born in sin, which means born apart from God, this was due to Adam and eve. Was Adam and Eve destined to Sin? Yes they were, "Why" a test of Faith "trust" in the word "will" while still in the presence of God in the garden of Edem.Adam and Eve were to live a life purity and dwell with God forever, with no sickness or pain,Because God's holy spirit was literally in them, no darkness can come into the light.What happened after they disobeyed God? God’s holy spirit was taken away from them and removed from the garden of Edem. Now they would surely die why? Because the holy spiritwas taken away from them, and from then on wards all human beings being born are born in sin, Without God's presence, (the holy spirit) For this reason death and all types deformities and sicknesses is born. I Hope this Answers your concern.Lord Jesus Came back incarnated in the flesh to receive the punishment on our behalf,So we may have life in abundance after death, by the return of the holy spirit. Which was lost by the first Adam, that’s why it's said that Christ is the second Adam.As the first Adam in born of flesh and the second Adam born of spirit. Which repentance leads to salvation.Because we are all born in sin, that is why the concerns you mentioned happens: Because The presence of God is not with us , but only for those who go to him in faith (trust) will receive his holy spirit through Christ Jesus.In faith by the holy spirit God heals and restores live, here is some evidence you ask for that God exists for those who come to him.You wrote :First and foremost, concrete empirical evidence of his existence. Here it isSo when babies die in childbirth, it's because the baby "didn't come to God? But when we come to God through faith he listens . Read testimony below In faithJul 3 2008, 03:06 AM Dave Duggan ( [email protected])Dear friends,This is a testimony from a young lady in our church ( 14) , who was part of team used by God to raise a stillborn baby from the dead in Guatemala. We know this young lady personally. Her character and integrity are without reproach. You are about to read a bonafide, contemporary Lazarus resurrection story. This is as close to the flame of a literal resurrection from the dead as we have ever been!BIG blessings,Dave and Anita [email protected]404.805.4220My name is Abby. I am 14 years old. I live in western North Carolina. During the summer of 2008, I went on a ministry trip to Guatemala. During part of the trip, we divided up into small ministry teams (5 to 7 people) and visited different villages in the San Pedro La Laguna area. We travelled from village to village telling the Indian people about Jesus. On one particular day, we were visiting in the home of young woman. She lived in a small village of about 14 or 15 houses. We were trying to lead the young lady to Christ, but it was not going very well. After awhile, we decided to move on. Before leaving, we asked the woman if we could pray with her about anything in her life. She told us that just the day before, she had given birth to a stillborn baby and that we could pray with her about that.In Guatemalan culture there is great shame and condemnation on mothers who give birth to deformed or stillborn children. We prayed a simple prayer that everything would go well with the funeral and burial of the baby and that the mother would be spared the shame and condemnation associated with having given birth to a stillborn child. As we were praying this simple prayer, my friend and fellow ministry team member, Julia (age 17), told me that we needed to pray over the baby's body. I thought she was crazy to suggest this and that it was not a good idea. Julia was persistent. She said again that we really needed to pray over the baby's body. She told me to ask the mother if she still had the baby's body. When I asked, the mother told us the baby's body was wrapped up in a burial cloth in the backroom. I asked her if we could pray over the body. The mother hesitantly said, yes. We went into the backroom and saw the baby's body wrapped up in a bundle on the bed. Julia poked her head out of the back room and asked if she could unwrap the baby's head. The mother said, yes, if we wrapped it back correctly when we were done. Julia picked up the body and unwrapped the head. The baby's head was tiny and pale. The baby was stillborn and had been dead outside the womb for 27 hours. Her skin had turned shades of purple. Our entire ministry team, five of us, began crying and praying over this baby. We prayed for thirty to forty minutes. At the end of that time, Julia screamed out to God, telling him that she believed with all of her heart that this s baby could be raised from the dead. After Julia screamed out, everyone was silent. We were quietly interceding and praying. Within a few minutes, the baby started moving. Then the baby coughed and began crying. The mother came rushing into the room. She was screaming, what is going? No one could answer her. We were just staring at the baby, who had come back to life. The mother asked us again, what is going on? She began crying as she saw that her baby was alive. She ran out of the house and banged on every door in the village, telling all of the people that God is real because her baby was alive. Within about thirty minutes, the baby's skin tone and movements had become completely normal.The other villagers came to the house to see this amazing miracle. They asked us which of the Indian gods we had prayed to for such a miracle to happen. We told them we had prayed to the biggest God ever and we began to explain to them about Jesus. Soon, we realized we would not have time to minister salvation to each person individually. So, we gathered all the villagers together, turned on our little sound system and explained the way of salvation. Everyone in the village, 80 to 90 people, prayed to receive Jesus. Each of them was baptised in the Holy Spirit and began speaking in tongues. Many would fall to the ground as the power of the Holy Spirit came on them.Five days later, we returned to the village to check in on the mother and the baby. The village had prepared a big dinner in honour of our team. We enjoyed a wonderful time of fellowship together. The baby, whom they named Julia, was perfectly healthy and had gained weight. Even after five days, the mother was still shaking from the impact of God on her life through the resurrection of her child. Two days after our follow-up visit, the mother brought baby Julia to church. The mother was still shaking from the power of God on her life following this astounding miracle.Abby[email protected]Lunar I hope this was what you were looking for.God bless

 

[Lunar]

(univac;55088)
As a believer in God through Christ Jesus ,I don't see death as bad but sad, for those whom grief and for those dead who burry their dead.
I find that to be morally offensive. The only bad thing about death is the grief it causes others? There's nothing bad about their being denied a chance at life?Would you argue that it's better to kill babies because they, as sinless beings, are guaranteed salvation? Because that is where your logic leads you.(univac)
What happened after they disobeyed God? God’s holy spirit was taken away from them and removed from the garden of Edem. Now they would surely die why? Because the holy spiritwas taken away from them, and from then on wards all human beings being born are born in sin, Without God's presence, (the holy spirit) For this reason death and all types deformities and sicknesses is born.
So, we are all suffering because of the transgressions of some people from thousands of years ago. The calamity that befalls the earth does so through no fault of our own. I see. That is horribly unjust.(univac)
Because we are all born in sin, that is why the concerns you mentioned happens. Because The presence of God is not with us , but only for those who go to him in faith (trust) will receive his holy spirit through Christ Jesus.
I thought you just said babies were born sinless and would go straight to God if they died. Now you are saying that we are born in sin and we will only go to God once we receive the spirit through Christ. That sounds contradictory to me.(univac)
In faith by the holy spirit God heals and restores live, here is some evidence you ask for that God exists for those who come to him.
Sorry, that testimony do nothing for me. Prayer doesn't work, and that anecdote don't do anything to prove it. First of all, a news story about it is needed for it to be at all credible. Looking it up, that article has been posted on exclusively Christian websites, and I've seen numerous accusations of its being an urban legend. If someone was actually raised from the dead, don't you think that would have made it into a major news circuit? On top of that, it's supposedly the testimony of a 14-year-old, with the only assurance of her credibility coming from the article itself. And, the article said that the village locals were worshipping Indian gods and implied that they were ignorant about Jesus, but Guatemala's religious landscape is almost universally Christian, with 50-60% being Catholic and the remaining 40% being Protestant. The numbers just don't add up. Why would they even be doing missionary work in a country that's 99% Christian?But more importantly, for every prayer that appears to be answered - every time someone receives a prayer and then recovers - there are dozens of instances of those who receive prayer and don't recover. In fact, this has even been the subject of study (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/). It's been scientifically shown that prayer has no statistically significant effect.Think about it. First of all, how can you account for the cases where Christians pray and pray and the subject of their prayer never recovers...and then a Muslim prays and prays to Allah and the subject of his prayer does recover? Secondly, why does prayer only seem to heal those things that might have got better anyway? You never see an amputees legs miraculously being healed by God through prayer, or someone magically being cured of HIV. Prayer only "works" in cases that happen to have a naturalistic explanation. And third, if prayer did work, it would be horribly unjust. Think about it - why should someone else's devoutness affect your wellbeing? What if you were a devout Christian, but you had no family or friends to pray for you? You'd be doomed to suffer the worst of whatever sickness afflicted you. And then what if you were an evil non-Christian, but with lots of devout Christian friends who were all praying for you? Even though you'd done nothing to earn it, you'd still be healed, because of the faith of someone else. That's not fair. That's arbitrary.Prayer does nothing, and people who pray in lieu of getting people the actual help they need are causing more harm than good.

 

[univac]

We are born in sin, which means born apart from God,We are all suffering because of the transgressions of some people from thousands of years ago..Would you argue that it's better to kill babies because they, as sinless beings, are guaranteed salvation? "No" these are your words? Because that is where your logic leads you. I have no logic but only faith which the lord leads me by his holy spirit.I thought you just said babies were born sinless and would go straight to God if they died. Now you are saying that we are born in sin and we will only go to God once we receive the spirit through Christ. That sounds contradictory to me. You are mistaken my friend I said We are born in sin which means (Separation from God). You can't use a baby that hasn’t known evil to be evil can you?But remember the love of God will redeem those innocent? And condemn them that are unrighteous and blasphamous, Pray to him and confess your sins and be saved before it is to late my friend.God bless

 

[Lunar]

function.

Pray to him and confess your sins and be saved before it is to late my friend.

This statement is arrogant, fearmongering, and most of all unconvincing. As a word of personal advice if you're hoping to convert anyone in the future, I'd shy away from these tactics. They're really just distasteful.

 

[univac]

I'm not trying to convert nobody, only reason with them for their sake, besides I care about people who are ignorant to the warnings from our creator ,and I speak the truth in Faith but not to your logical terms, For it is written in the Bible:1 Corinthians 2:14But for the unspiritualise person does not accept the things of the divine Spirit, to him theyare folly and he cannot understand them, because they are evaluated from a spiritual stand point. The flesh opposes the spirit and the spirit opposes the flesh for they are in opposition to each other.God bless

 

[Lunar]

(univac;55251)
1 Corinthians 2:14But for the unspiritualise person does not accept the things of the divine Spirit, to him theyare folly and he cannot understand them, because they are evaluated from a spiritual stand point. The flesh opposes the spirit and the spirit opposes the flesh for they are in opposition to each other.
Saying that God can only be evaluated spiritually will obviously do nothing to appease the skeptic, who denies the existence of all things spiritual to begin with. To say that one will reject God until he is "spiritualized" completely misses the point of contention - no one would concern themselves with "spiritualization" unless they already believe in God.

 

[Alpha and Omega]

(Lunar;55086)
First and foremost, concrete empirical evidence of his existence.But, barring that, a more sufficient explanation of the problem of evil than the one that has been offered in this thread, as well as a proper explanation that accounts for the numerous holes and inconsistencies in the bible and its unfulfilled prophecies.
Well for evidence how about the death of the apostles that knew Jesus and witnessed the resurrection? Is that good enough?Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethopia, killed by a sword wound.Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.John was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos where he wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation. The Apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as a bishop in modern Turkey. He died an old man, the only Apostle to die peacefully.Peter,was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross, according to Church tradition, because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die the same way that Jesus Christ had died.James the Just, the leader of the Church in Jerusalem and brother of Jesus, was thrown down more than a hundred feet from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the Church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman soldier who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.Bartholomew, also known as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed about our Lord in present day Turkey. He was whipped to death for his preaching in Armenia.Thomas was speared and died on one of his missionary trips to establish the Church in India.Jude, another brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows after refusing to deny his faith in Christ.Matthias, the Apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and beheaded.Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, was stoned to death at Salonica.Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the Churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, from a large portion of the New Testament. Now let's just think about this for one second. If Jesus died and did not rise from the dead would the Gospel have been preached by these men? No. Now, I think it is very safe to say that these men were not liars because after all why would they die such brutal deaths for a lie? They saw that Jesus resurrected they knew he was the Christ they knew he was God they would not have done any of this without that knowledge.

 

[Lunar]

A&O:With all due respect, that is not a very good argument. I could name martyrs in every single other religious tradition, too, and say "Why would they have died for Islam if it was wrong?" or "Why would they have died for Buddhism if it was wrong?" Look at what it is going on in the Middle East even today - countless Muslims sacrificing their lives for their religion. Is that evidence to you that Islam is the true faith? Of course not; you think they are dying for a false religion, and that's the exact reaction that I have to all the examples you just listed as well.All martyrdom and sacrifice proves is that the martyr thought his religious view was right - not that his religious views were actually right. The way you saw those martyrs as evidence demonstrates selective reasoning on your part.

 

[Alpha and Omega]

(Lunar;55514)
A&O:With all due respect, that is not a very good argument. I could name martyrs in every single other religious tradition, too, and say "Why would they have died for Islam if it was wrong?" or "Why would they have died for Buddhism if it was wrong?" Look at what it is going on in the Middle East even today - countless Muslims sacrificing their lives for their religion. Is that evidence to you that Islam is the true faith? Of course not; you think they are dying for a false religion, and that's the exact reaction that I have to all the examples you just listed as well.All martyrdom and sacrifice proves is that the martyr thought his religious view was right - not that his religious views were actually right. The way you saw those martyrs as evidence demonstrates selective reasoning on your part.
Yes I believe they are dying for a false religion and that they are deceived. However there are muslims even on this site that even say that islam is not about what those people stand for. Furthermore, they are deceived but they are not liars. They really believe what they are doing is right, does that make them liars or are they telling the truth? Same thing with the men that knew Jesus are they lying about the resurrection. If so ask yourself would you die (in some cases brutally) for a lie? I hardly think you would I hardly think anyone in their right mind would. I hardly believe it is selective reasoning. Like I said any martyr for any religion I do not believe to be a liar on the contrary they are telling the truth. You just have to decide which truth is the right one. Now if the apostles are not liars and they died because Christ rose from the dead then....well I leave it to you to decide if you think they are deceived or not.

 

[Truth_Teller]

The argument still doesn´t help. A religion is proved true or false by making good argumentative points which can convince those who are outsiders. The point of "Passion" or "The Will to die" doesn´t really help the cause.If we were to say so then shouldn´t all Christians believe in Muhammad for the passion he had to deliver the message of Islam?When the attitude of the Quraish (The Tribe) became more threatening, Abu Talib again begged his nephew to renounce his mission but Muhammad´s reply was:"O my uncle, if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, to force me to renounce my work, verily I would not desist thereform until Allah made manifest His cause, or I perished in the attempt"So do you believe in Him now for his passion? Why would he endanger his life if he was a liar???I, however, don´t believe in Islam for the passion that he had, but I have chosen it as the religion for myself.If the "Passion" was to help wouldn´t all Jews believe in Jesus Christ for the passion that he had that he was even ready to be hanged on the cross???

 

[Alpha and Omega]

(Truth_Teller;55516)
The argument still doesn´t help. A religion is proved true or false by making good argumentative points which can convince those who are outsiders. The point of "Passion" or "The Will to die" doesn´t really help the cause.If we were to say so then shouldn´t all Christians believe in Muhammad for the passion he had to deliver the message of Islam?When the attitude of the Quraish (The Tribe) became more threatening, Abu Talib again begged his nephew to renounce his mission but Muhammad´s reply was:"O my uncle, if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, to force me to renounce my work, verily I would not desist thereform until Allah made manifest His cause, or I perished in the attempt"So do you believe in Him now for his passion? Why would he endanger his life if he was a liar???I, however, don´t believe in Islam for the passion that he had, but I have chosen it as the religion for myself.If the "Passion" was to help wouldn´t all Jews believe in Jesus Christ for the passion that he had that he was even ready to be hanged on the cross???
Well Mohammed never came into contact with God. His believes are purely on faith (nothing wrong with that). I do not claim that Mohammed ever lied he tells the truth indeed but I believe it to be a false truth. He has been deceived. The apostles chosen are there for a reason. For example if someone you knew was a martyr would you choose the faith they died for. Highly unlikely. First and foremost they never were in contact with God they based their knowledge of God on faith nothing more (and that seems to be not good enough anymore). However the apostles mentioned had something more than faith they walked and talked with God for 3 years. They knew Jesus. The fact that they died for what they believe is a lot more credible then if say I would die for what I believe because they did not have to go on faith alone unlike people today. How do we know they were not deceived? Well if 12 apostles were all deceived into believing that Jesus rose from the dead......well then if someone believes that then no one will ever help them.