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Does God Hate?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by BornAgain, Feb 1, 2014.

  1. BornAgain

    BornAgain New Member

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    I have trouble with this scripture and not to doubt God's Word would like some insight into why this scripture was written and if God truly does hate, prior to one even being born. Does He hate all sinners that He does not approve or disapprove prior to conception or birth?

    Romans 9:13 (KJV)
    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
     
  2. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    BornAgain

    This is a volatile topic and much surrounds it's answer. But it is one that does need to addressed.

    I would say, of course God hates, as you show in the Scripture. God loves, but hate is also part of God. One cannot love without hating that which is destructive to the one He loves. The Church over the years has camped out only on the 'love' of God as that is more pleasing and acceptable. Thus God is like a doting old grandma who just loves and loves.

    With Jacob and Esau we see God revealing the persons he loves and hates. Just like with Jacob and Esau, it is the persons. Not what they did. He can do that because He is God. So in God's area, becauses He knows who are His and who are not, He does love and hate accordingly. That does not mean we know who are going to come to Christ and who are not. We don't. So we witness to all. We can know once one places faith in Christ that they are indeed one of the elect and loved by God.

    Quantrill
     
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  3. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Hi BornAgain.
    It might be that the sentiment has been translated incorrectly. Context determies the use of

    miseó: to hate
    Original Word: μισέω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: miseó
    Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
    Short Definition: I hate, detest
    Definition: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less.
    3404 miséō – properly, to detest (on a comparative basis); hence, denounce; to love someone or something less than someone (something) else, i.e. to renounce one choice in favor of another.

    Lk 14:26: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate (3404 /miséō, 'love less' than the Lord) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple" (NASU).
    [Note the comparative meaning of 3404 (miséō) which centers in moral choice, elevating one value over another.]

    I don't believe Jesus commanded us to break the Law here " - “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you."...rather some translations have chosen the wrong use of miseó (but I may be wrong) - you decide.
    Poppin.
     
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  4. Madad21

    Madad21 Boast in Christ

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    Hi BornAgain nice to meet you

    You will find that the verse is not meant so much as hatred of Esau as it is leans more toward the election of Jacob and those delivered now only by grace.

    Romans 9:13 (KJV)
    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    This Scripture in Romans deals mainly with God’s Sovereign Choice as you may well know.
    And the overall Jewish rejection of Christs salvation.

    Paul says in
    Romans 9:6-8
    It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

    It is pointed out that Gods election of the saints can never be appointed by way of works, as the Pharisees tried so hard to manifest strongly amongst the meek.
    Likewise Esau was a good hunter and very successful, and he became a conqueror, ruling over his neighbours. Jacob on the other hand was a plain man, one that liked easy living.(Genesis 25:27)

    But as we read through Samuel and Kings we find It was always through wholehearted faith and trust in the Lord that great nations were driven out, and usually in the most overwhelming of circumstances. This proving that no man could boast of his own election but only by Gods authority.
    1 Samuel 16:7 NIV
    "But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

    The verse is not meant so much as hatred of Esau as it is leans more toward the election of Jacob and those delivered now only by grace.
    Good chooses to save the wretched lost and he hates the proud self-assured.

    In Gods election of Jacob over Esau we find our hopes and dreams develop and manifest in the Works of God through Christ our Lord, seeking grace and mercy instead of recognition of works

    (Now this next bit is just my opinion for what its worth)
    Esau and those like him have the offer all men who humble themselves have of forgiveness and mercy. Like the Evil King Manasseh who turned to the Lord and was redeemed after he made his own sons walk through fire to the idol Molech.
    But in this case Gods covenant and promises will be made through Jacob. Gods hatred of Esau will be because of Esau's rejection of God and jealousy of Jacob. Nothing was stopping Esau from coming to God except Esau's own pride.
    God may have known that Esau would be this way, but he is not in the business of making us do anything outside of our own free will, Esau's rejection of God was all his own.

    This is my opinion for the time being until I do a more indepth study of these events.

     
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  5. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba New Member

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    .

    I like Poppins answer
     
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  6. Madad21

    Madad21 Boast in Christ

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    Is it a competition?.
    There was obviously nothing wrong with Poppins answer, in fact she hit the nail on the head. and so did Quantrill for that matter.
    I was tackling the Subject and context of what Paul was talking about,
    Sorry friend but you add nothing and at the same time dismiss a lot of research with careless off the cuff comments like that. :(
     
  7. Boaz

    Boaz New Member

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    Psalm 5
    King James Version (KJV)


    [SIZE=1.25em]5 [/SIZE]Give ear to my words, O Lord, consider my meditation.
    [SIZE=.75em]2 [/SIZE]Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.
    [SIZE=.75em]3 [/SIZE]My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O Lord; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.
    [SIZE=.75em]4 [/SIZE]For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
    [SIZE=.75em]5 [/SIZE]The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

    Yet Jesus died for the world
     
  8. BornAgain

    BornAgain New Member

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    Thank you for your responses, they were appreciated. Translation is important here as Poppin posted regarding the word "hate." I think where I was going here was if God knew before Esau was born and His disapproval for his actions, are we doomed because God "foreknew" Esau's weakness and giving up his own birthright never had a chance?

    But, like Esau received spiritual blessings from Isaac , we are promised spiritual blessing from God also, through Jesus. In Ephesians 1:3 it says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.” That is our birthright...

    In 1 John 4:8 we are told that “God is love.” We have the love of God in our lives if we obey the Gospel. In Jn. 3:16, if we live according to the teaching of God, we have the spiritual blessing of God’s protection.

    Hebrews 13:5-6, Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have.
     
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  9. lukethreesix

    lukethreesix New Member

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    God does not "hate". Not in the same sense we think of today. He has a righteous anger like Jesus did at the Temple, but He is not a skin-head who hates some and loves others.
     
  10. Pelaides

    Pelaides New Member

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    I think it would be impossible for God to hate.Hatred is a human emotion normally reserved for indivdualls who have power over us,for example your parents,your boss,and other authority figures who you have to submit to.
    Who does God have to submit and or answer to?Nobody!
     
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  11. Madad21

    Madad21 Boast in Christ

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    I understand what you mean in what your saying and I agree to a certain extent.
    However God shows all other emotions as we do like Joy and sadness.
    Also he detests sin and Jesus whilst on the cross became sin and God could no longer look upon his Son, in fact he had to pour out all his wrath upon the Son.
    Thus Christ drinking our cup of wrath.
    Now wrath is hatred for something so fiercely that it makes you violently angry.
    So what does that mean if we dont accept Christ as Savior, doesnt it mean we still have our portion of Gods wrath on us because we have not handed it over to his Son?
    Wouldnt that mean that God hates the sinner as much as he hates the sin?
    It doesnt mean that he hates his creation and wants to destroy it.
     
  12. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Psalm 7
    10My shield is with God, Who saves the upright in heart. 11God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day. 12If a man does not repent, He will sharpen His sword; He has bent His bow and made it ready.
     
  13. Pelaides

    Pelaides New Member

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    This is your own opinion.God and the angels probally watched the cruxifiction from start to finish,cheering the victory of Christ and the salvation of man.
     
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  14. Madad21

    Madad21 Boast in Christ

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    My own opinion?

    Psalms 75:8
    For a cup is in the hand of the LORD, and the wine foams; It is well mixed, and He pours out of this; Surely all the wicked of the earth must drain and drink down its dregs.

    Matthew 26:36-46
    Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
    Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
    When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
    Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”


    Matthew 26:51-53
    Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword,drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
    “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

    Mark 15:34
    Then at three o'clock Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?"

    Yep I can see how you would think that there were great celebrations in heaven during this time
    :huh:
     
  15. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Great topic. I think it is hyperbole. The inspired writers of this story were describing what they saw - Jacob appeared to be loved by God and Esau appeared to be hated by him. I think verses say more about how dualistic the writers were - in their minds there has to be a winner and a loser - dualism is a condition of the Fall - it is never accurate. I also agree with Pelaides - God would seem to be incapable of hate because He is unable to be threatened or dominated.
     
  16. Pelaides

    Pelaides New Member

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    Jesuses triumph over evil and the beginning of the new covenent.Jesus succeded where adam failed.
     
  17. Madad21

    Madad21 Boast in Christ

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    Thats right, thats why we can celebrate now....high five!
     
  18. lukethreesix

    lukethreesix New Member

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    "Jesuses triumph over evil and the beginning of the new covenent.Jesus succeded where adam failed."

    I agree! Unfortunately though, the majority of christians don't :(
    The church has taught us for 1500 years that Adam brings death to all, but Jesus brings life to only a few.

    But I agree with Paul, JUST AS in Adam all die, SO ALSO in Christ all will live. - 1 Cor 15:22 (paul talks more about this in romans 5:15-21) YES! Christ completely restores what Adam destroyed...Good News! Thats the Gospel...
    I can't wait for Eph 4:13 + 1 Cor 15:28
     
  19. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    In the Hebrew, 'hate' can carry the idea of less favor:

    Gen 29:30,31 "And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren."


    And the context of Rom 9:13 is taken from Malachai 1 where the nations Israel and Edom are being spoken about, God loved Israel, hated Edom. The love/hate was not towards the individuals Jacob and Esau.
     
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  20. BornAgain

    BornAgain New Member

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    This is what I found in reference to Malachi...

    [SIZE=1em]Was not Esau Jacob's brother?—[/SIZE]Have I not shown a greater partiality to the Israelites than I have to the Edomites?

    [SIZE=1em]I loved Jacob—[/SIZE]My love to Jacob has been proved by giving him greater privileges and a better inheritance than what I have given to Esau.

    Malachi 1:3
    [SIZE=1em]And I hated Esau—[/SIZE]I have shown him less love; Genesis 29:30, 31. I comparatively hated him by giving him an inferior lot. And now, I have not only laid waste the dwelling-place of the Edomites, by the incursions of their enemies; but (verse 4) they shall remain the perpetual monuments of my vengeance. On the subject of loving Jacob and hating Esau, see the notes on Genesis 27 (note), and Romans 9:13 (note). Let it be remembered,
    1. That there is not a word spoken here concerning the eternal state of either Jacob or Esau.
    2. That what is spoken concerns merely their earthly possessions. And,
    3. That it does not concern the two brothers at all, but the posterity of each.
    —Adam Clarke's Commentary

    Thank you for the reference.
     
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