Does God Love Sinners?

[lesjude]

Does God Love Sinners?

What does the Bible say? No person by a free will choice will ever
choose the foolishness of Christianity which the Bible clearly says: 1
Corinthians 1:23-24, John 3:19-21, John 6:37 and 65. However that there
is one God is revealed in His creation as Acts 14:17 and Romans
chapters 1 and 2 say. This is all that God requires to judge them.


IF anyone is elect by God's predestined choice he will hear the gospel
and receive Jesus. It may even be by a dream, vision, or other
supernatural means. God loves His elect and all of them will choose to
receive Jesus.


Many believe that God looked down eternity and chose the ones that would
make a freewill choice to receive salvation. This cannot be true
because it would mean that salvation is not by grace and man can do
something on his own to receive it. According to the scripture salvation
is by grace through faith. It has to be understood that if God had not
predestined a FEW to be saved NONE would ever be. Clearly the Bible
teaches that humanity would never "freely" choose the foolishness of
Christianity.


God does not love sinners in the sense that there is anything about
them or their lives to love. They disgust Him. In fact He drowned ALL
of them at one point. God's very nature is love so he gave them 120
years of Noah preaching and building an ark for them to repent or even
build their own ark. God will again judge sinners at the close of this
age with fire.


Christianity today has a false message in that they tell the sinner
God loves them. This gives them the false impression that there is
something about them that God does not hate and condemn. The truth is
God's nature is love so He sent Jesus to make it possible for sinners
to be made righteous, forsake sin, and be loved by God. There is a BIG difference. Sin and sinners disgust God.


This false message of God's love for sinners has had predictable
results. Unrepentant sodomites have been accepted as Christians and
organized "churches".

 

[bling]

Was God the father of Adam and Eve?

If we are descendants of Adam and Eve, does that not make God our father like Abraham was the father of the Jews?

Is God just and is God fair and is God consistent?

Is there any difference between those that are saved andthose that are lost prior to God saving them?


If there is no difference and God could just as easily save everyone as He could save a few, is it fair that God did not save everyone?


If you are saved and the person next to you that has done and thought the same as you is lost, how
does that make you feel?

 

[lesjude]

Was God the father of Adam and Eve?

Romans 5:12-15
New King James Version (NKJV)

12 Therefore,
just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless
death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned
according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of
Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is
not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much
more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus
Christ, abounded to many.




If we are descendants of Adam and Eve, does that not make God our father like Abraham was the father of the Jews?

See above and: Romans 9:6-7
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”


Galatians 3:8-9
New King James Version (NKJV)

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[a] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Is God just and is God fair and is God consistent?

Romans 9:14-18
New King James Version (NKJV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[a] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For
this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in
you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[b] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Romans 2:5-11

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 But
in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are
treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of
the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Is there any difference between those that are saved andthose that are lost prior to God saving them?

Yes, God is drawing His elect and preserving them unto salvation. He is breaking down their thought patterns that oppose the gospel and revealing His goodness and mercy to them. They are also under the protection of His angels.

If there is no difference and God could just as easily save everyone as He could save a few, is it fair that God did not save everyone?

Romans 9:19-21
New King James Version (NKJV)


19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?



Ephesians 1:11
New King James Version (NKJV)


11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according
to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of
His will,

If you are saved and the person next to you that has done and thought the same as you is lost, how
does that make you feel?

No one could know these things about another person, nor can anyone say a professing Christian is not saved. No one can say the unsaved cannot be saved.

 

[joshhuntnm]

who else is there to love?

 

[Axehead]

Does God Love Sinners?

What does the Bible say? No person by a free will choice will ever
choose the foolishness of Christianity which the Bible clearly says: 1
Corinthians 1:23-24, John 3:19-21, John 6:37 and 65. However that there
is one God is revealed in His creation as Acts 14:17 and Romans
chapters 1 and 2 say. This is all that God requires to judge them.

One does not choose the "foolishness of Christianity". One chooses or rejects Christ. The Holy Spirit which draws men to Christ, does just that. He points to Christ, not Christianity. Look around, what flavor of Christianity would the Spirit point men to?


John_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


John_3:16 For God so loved the world, (does not say ELECT) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever

God showed His love to sinners while they were sinners.
Rom_5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Reconciling the WORLD, not ELECT.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

What were you saying about God not loving the sinner. Did you not see the love of God demonstrated in Jesus' life towards sinners? How could you have missed that? There are many more scriptures.


If Love constrains us to reconcile men to God, then Love must constrain God, since we are not more loving and more spiritual than He. Would you not agree?

Titus_3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Love of God....toward man.....

He really loves the sinner, lesjude.

Axehead

 

[lesjude]

One does not choose the "foolishness of Christianity". One chooses or rejects Christ. The Holy Spirit which draws men to Christ, does just that. He points to Christ, not Christianity. Look around, what flavor of Christianity would the Spirit point men to?

Only the elect receive effectual grace from God's side to receive Christ. From their side it is a free will choice. The others make a free will choice to reject Him because they do not want or receive effectual grace. None. The Bible calls all denominations carnal.
The Bible calls the preaching of the gospel foolishness UNLESS they are given grace to receive it.





John_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Only the predestined elect will believe/receive Christ. The Greek word is not power but authority.

John_3:16 For God so loved the world, (does not say ELECT) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever

The Greek says, For God loved the world SO He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him.....
First God does love the world because He bestows His blessings and mercy on sinner and saved alike. However ONLY the elect will receive Christ and endure to the end. From their side it is perseverance by grace through faith. From God's side it is the preservation of His elect.

God showed His love to sinners while they were sinners.
Rom_5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

The "US" refers to the elect in the church that already were saved, not all sinners. God loved His elect enough to send Christ to die for them while they were sinners. Again this is an example of Christ dying for sinners who were the predestined elect, NOT all sinners.

Reconciling the WORLD, not ELECT.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Here is how that scripture was preached in the NT:
New King James Version (NKJV)

29 Therefore,
since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the
Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art
and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because
He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in
righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of
this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Note not one word about God's love for them as sinners. His love is demonstrated ONLY in that He sent Paul to preach the gospel of reconciliation. Only those elect God loved received it. God knew EXACTLY who they were and had known before the foundation of the earth.


Romans 9:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Again this refers to God's love for His saints that have received Christ, NOT all sinners

What were you saying about God not loving the sinner. Did you not see the love of God demonstrated in Jesus' life towards sinners? How could you have missed that? There are many more scriptures.

Of course Jesus demonstrated God's uncondtional love by preaching the Kingdom of God and healing/delivering sinners who came to Him. His nature is to do good unconditioanally. That does NOT mean they are saved or elect. Do not mistake that with the love for His elect saints. Here is exactly what the love for His elect saints is even while they are sinners. The others do NOT qualify.John 17:23New King James Version (NKJV)

23
I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that
the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You
have loved Me.


You will also note that many just kept on in sin as a freewill choice. See John 6:37, 65-67. 120 plus ended up in the upper room.


Christ ministered savingly to FEW. John 4:1-38, John 9:36-37 (but his parents denied Christ). This man could not wait to sin after being healed: John 5:14

If Love constrains us to reconcile men to God, then Love must
constrain God, since we are not more loving and more spiritual than He.
Would you not agree?

Titus_3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Love of God....toward man.....

He really loves the sinner, lesjude.

Axehead

We are to give that unconditioanal love to all just as Jesus did and still does by doing Matthew 10:7-8 and Mark 16:17-18. However only the elect will recieve Jesus as Lord and savior.

 

[Groundzero]

Lesjude, if your premise is correct, then how do you explain this?

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To me, it sounds like God is very concerned about sinners, and really does love them, but if they reject him, his holiness compels judgement.

 

[Axehead]

The doctrine of election is scriptural but the Calvinistic doctrine of Unconditional election is a perversion of Biblical election. The "T" in TULIP is for Total Depravity and it is the foundational point of Calvinism. For "Unconditional Election", "Total Depravity" is necessary. If you reject one you must reject the other.

Think about it. What you really mean by Total Depravity is Total Inability which is not about the depravity of man at all.

Therefore "Unconditional Election" has been invented because of "Total Inability". If man is wholly unable (because of his guilt and depravity) to deliver himself and cannot turn to the Lord for deliverance then it follows that God must choose those who shall be the object of His grace.

It Total Depravity is true all one can do is hope for the Unconditional Election of God to save him by His Irresistible Grace. It is as simple as that.

But the opposite would also have to be true. If Total Depravity prove to be spurious then the rest of the Tulip would wither. But the false foundation of Total Depravity has been proven to be nonsense. Which means that Unconditional Election is built upon the false premise of Total Depravity. This is the first problem, Unconditional Election built upon a false premise.

If man does not have "inability" then he can be saved without Unconditional Election and this will render Unconditional Election a false doctrine, too.

Ok, so I said Total Depravity has been proven to be false. The problem is that I don't disagree with Depravity, for it is Biblical doctrine. However, the Scriptures disagree with what Calvinists mean as "Total Depravity". Depravity is simply moral corruption. But you see, "Total Depravity" to the Calvinist has nothing to do with man's sinful nature or fallen condition, although he will emphasize these truths. When a Calvinist says that he believes in Total Depravity, he is really giving a smoke screen, covering up what he really believes.

Here is how modern-day Calvinists define Total Depravity:

"Total Depravity means that the natural man is never able to do any good that is fundamentally pleasing to God, and, in fact, does evil all the time."
Edwin Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism

"We mean by this doctrine, therefore, that man is thoroughly crooked, wicked and sinful by nature in himself and by position with God. this corrupt nature he received from Adam's fall into sin and from Adam and is evidenced in every man's choice and practice of sin, in which he is like Adam."
Frank B. Beck, The Five Points of Calvinism

"When Calvinists speak of man as being totally depraved, they mean that man's nature is corrupt, perverse and sinful throughout."
Steele and Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism Defined, Defended, Documented

Again, the Bible Believing Christian can agree with these quotes. So, when a Calvinist speaks of Total Depravity what he really means is Total Inability which has nothing to do with Total Depravity at all, but is really the RESULT of it.

"Total Depravity is the cause of Total Inability and Total Inability is the result of Total Depravity".
Harold Harvey, The Berea Baptist Banner Forum

Calvinists believe that man has been so corrupted by sin that he is totally incapable of doing anything to accomplish his salvation. That man is unable to freely believe on Jesus Christ for salvation.

Talbot and Crampton in Calvinism HyperCalvinism & Arminianisim support this by saying "The Bible stresses the total inability of fallen man to respond to the things of God, he is not able to do so."

Arthur Pink says that, "As a creature the natural man is responsible to love, obey and serve God; as a sinner he is responsible to repent and believe the Gospel. But at the outset we are confronted with the fact that the natural man is unable to love and serve God, and that the sinner, of himself, cannot repent and believe."

So, inability had nothing to do with man's depravity and need of a savior at all but rather concerned man's inability to do what he is time after time commanded by God to do:

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

If the Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity (Inability) is true, all one can do is hope that he is the subject of Unconditional Election and if he is, then quietly wait for God to save him by Irresistible Grace. It is as simple as that.

But, if man does not have Total Inability, then he can be saved without the Calvinistic points of Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace.

Arthur Pink says that "man's will is not free because it can only act according to his depraved nature is disproved not only by the Bible but by Calvinists, as well.

Are we not free to choose?

A true view of man's fallen nature and depraved condition shows that man does have the "ability" to do "good."

Pro 13:22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Other times it is the "unregenerate" in general that do good.

Luke 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Then there are also occasions when specific individuals are mentioned as either doing good or having the capability of doing good. Abimelech and a couple of his companions, all of whom hated Isaac (Gen 26:27), who was a type of Christ (Gen 22:2), were unregenerate, yet it is recorded that they replied to Isaac:

Gen 26:29 That thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace: thou art now the blessed of the LORD.

God Himself even recognized that the wicked could do "good":
Gen 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.

The Bible commands men to seek God.
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Amo 5:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

God declares that those who seek Him will find Him.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:...


Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden (that is just about everyone), and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[williemac]

Great post, Axehead. The hyper Calvanist position places God is such a terrible light that I can scarcely believe they don't see that. They make God into a control freak. They make Him to pick and choose His "elect" with no criteria that they can pinpoint. They forget that God is love. How can He not love sinners? He hates the sin. Loves the sinner. It is similar to our hating the disobedience of our own children. Are we better than God, loving our own disobedient children? Or should we follow suit and hate them as God does? What perversion!!

As well, the op suggests that a mere "few" are saved. How does this comply with John's revelation of a great multitude around the throne of God, that no one could number? (Rev.7:9) ..of all tribes, tongues, and nations...

But the op said something that contradicted itself. It did no just say "by grace" It said "grace through faith". Whatever is given, must also be received. This is a truth that resonates throughout scripture. Man may not have the ability to produce righteousness and life, but he does have the ability to receive these things freely. And furthermore, this takes the one thing that God demands of humanilty in order to receive grace...humility. Man has the ability to humble himself. blessings, Howie

 

[lesjude]

Lesjude, if your premise is correct, then how do you explain this?

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To me, it sounds like God is very concerned about sinners, and really does love them, but if they reject him, his holiness compels judgement.

His concern is for His elect that have not received Christ and are still in sin i.e. "sinners". The current age will continue until all God's elect from each generation receive Christ. God knows exactly who they are and will see to it they hear and respond to the gospel. Below is the love He has for His predestined elect even while they are in sin. No one else receives this love.


John 17:23-24
New King James Version (NKJV)


23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that
the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You
have loved Me.
24 “Father,
I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am,
that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me
before the foundation of the world.


Note the elect were loved by God the Father before the foundation of the world just as He loved Christ.

 

[Axehead]

Many are called but few are chosen? Why? Because the many that are called don't answer the call. They exercise their will to reject Christ while others exercise their will to receive Him. It takes an act of the will to receive or reject a gift. A gift is not forced on anyone. That is LOVE.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

"Elect" is a biblical doctrine, just not a Calvinistic doctrine.

All the best to you, lesjude.

 

[lesjude]

The doctrine of election is scriptural but the Calvinistic doctrine of Unconditional election is a perversion of Biblical election. The "T" in TULIP is for Total Depravity and it is the foundational point of Calvinism. For "Unconditional Election", "Total Depravity" is necessary. If you reject one you must reject the other.

Think about it. What you really mean by Total Depravity is Total Inability which is not about the depravity of man at all.

Therefore "Unconditional Election" has been invented because of "Total Inability". If man is wholly unable (because of his guilt and depravity) to deliver himself and cannot turn to the Lord for deliverance then it follows that God must choose those who shall be the object of His grace.

It Total Depravity is true all one can do is hope for the Unconditional Election of God to save him by His Irresistible Grace. It is as simple as that.

But the opposite would also have to be true. If Total Depravity prove to be spurious then the rest of the Tulip would wither. But the false foundation of Total Depravity has been proven to be nonsense. Which means that Unconditional Election is built upon the false premise of Total Depravity. This is the first problem, Unconditional Election built upon a false premise.

If man does not have "inability" then he can be saved without Unconditional Election and this will render Unconditional Election a false doctrine, too.

Ok, so I said Total Depravity has been proven to be false. The problem is that I don't disagree with Depravity, for it is Biblical doctrine. However, the Scriptures disagree with what Calvinists mean as "Total Depravity". Depravity is simply moral corruption. But you see, "Total Depravity" to the Calvinist has nothing to do with man's sinful nature or fallen condition, although he will emphasize these truths. When a Calvinist says that he believes in Total Depravity, he is really giving a smoke screen, covering up what he really believes.

Here is how modern-day Calvinists define Total Depravity:

"Total Depravity means that the natural man is never able to do any good that is fundamentally pleasing to God, and, in fact, does evil all the time."
Edwin Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism

"We mean by this doctrine, therefore, that man is thoroughly crooked, wicked and sinful by nature in himself and by position with God. this corrupt nature he received from Adam's fall into sin and from Adam and is evidenced in every man's choice and practice of sin, in which he is like Adam."
Frank B. Beck, The Five Points of Calvinism

"When Calvinists speak of man as being totally depraved, they mean that man's nature is corrupt, perverse and sinful throughout."
Steele and Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism Defined, Defended, Documented

Again, the Bible Believing Christian can agree with these quotes. So, when a Calvinist speaks of Total Depravity what he really means is Total Inability which has nothing to do with Total Depravity at all, but is really the RESULT of it.

"Total Depravity is the cause of Total Inability and Total Inability is the result of Total Depravity".
Harold Harvey, The Berea Baptist Banner Forum

Calvinists believe that man has been so corrupted by sin that he is totally incapable of doing anything to accomplish his salvation. That man is unable to freely believe on Jesus Christ for salvation.

Talbot and Crampton in Calvinism HyperCalvinism & Arminianisim support this by saying "The Bible stresses the total inability of fallen man to respond to the things of God, he is not able to do so."

Arthur Pink says that, "As a creature the natural man is responsible to love, obey and serve God; as a sinner he is responsible to repent and believe the Gospel. But at the outset we are confronted with the fact that the natural man is unable to love and serve God, and that the sinner, of himself, cannot repent and believe."

So, inability had nothing to do with man's depravity and need of a savior at all but rather concerned man's inability to do what he is time after time commanded by God to do:

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

If the Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity (Inability) is true, all one can do is hope that he is the subject of Unconditional Election and if he is, then quietly wait for God to save him by Irresistible Grace. It is as simple as that.

But, if man does not have Total Inability, then he can be saved without the Calvinistic points of Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace.

Arthur Pink says that "man's will is not free because it can only act according to his depraved nature is disproved not only by the Bible but by Calvinists, as well.

Are we not free to choose?

A true view of man's fallen nature and depraved condition shows that man does have the "ability" to do "good."

Pro 13:22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Other times it is the "unregenerate" in general that do good.

Luke 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Then there are also occasions when specific individuals are mentioned as either doing good or having the capability of doing good. Abimelech and a couple of his companions, all of whom hated Isaac (Gen 26:27), who was a type of Christ (Gen 22:2), were unregenerate, yet it is recorded that they replied to Isaac:

Gen 26:29 That thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace: thou art now the blessed of the LORD.

God Himself even recognized that the wicked could do "good":
Gen 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.

The Bible commands men to seek God.
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Amo 5:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

God declares that those who seek Him will find Him.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:...


Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden (that is just about everyone), and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

You mistake the doing of "good" using the thought pattern based on the knowledge of "good" and evil with actions led by the Holy Spirit of Life. Of course the usaved can do "good" on this basis. An example would be nationalism which does "good" and much evil. Another example would be the medical system which is the #3 killer in the US.
God can direct sinners to do "good" things to carry out His predestined plan and does using preventive, directive, permissive, and determinitive control. This does not mean that they are given "credit" for anything "good" they do. If this were true one could earn their way to God by doing "good".
Good in God's view is goodness based ONLY on the direction of the Holy Spirit of Life which no unsaved person has. Every other act of "goodness" is based on the knowledge of good and evil which man received as a result of sin in the garden. It is good to love and care for one's children and sinners do. However directing them in God's ways is the only good led by the Holy Spirit of Life. Man's depravity is determined by God's standard of Holiness which is Himself. Only those in Christ can meet that standard.
So here is the scripture that says no sinner can do good or seek after God:


Romans 3:10-18
New King James Version (NKJV)

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

So the fact that no one wills to seek God or is able to live doing any acts led by the Holy Spirit of Life means that if God did not elect some NONE would be saved.

The Bible cllearly says FEW will be saved. There will be multitudes but few compared to all those who are not.


Matthew 7:13-14
New King James Version (NKJV)

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The call of the gospel is given to ALL i.e. come to me all who are heavy laden.... The elect receive it as truth and respond bearing fruit of the Holy Spirit and enduring to the end. The rest do the "good": things to deal with their issues which they will NEVER see as rooted in their own sin thus they reject the call. Others do "good" things such as say the sinners prayer, join a church, follow the religious progam, get counseling, give 10%, teach Sunday school, sing in the choir, but still fulfill the negative verses of the parable of the sower. Why? They do not endure because they were not elect.
The problem is if you say man by his own free will choice can receive salvation it is NOT by grace ALONE. It is by grace alone which was bestowed, done, finished, and over with before time began by a SOVEREIGN God given to His elect. If that is not true then God is not sovereign therefore not God. He is both sovereign and God.

Many are called but few are chosen? Why? Because the many that are called don't answer the call. They exercise their will to reject Christ while others exercise their will to receive Him. It takes an act of the will to receive or reject a gift. A gift is not forced on anyone. That is LOVE.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

"Elect" is a biblical doctrine, just not a Calvinistic doctrine.

All the best to you, lesjude.

If sinners can do anything to receive salvation it is NOT grace. If man can receive or reject God He is dependent on what they do and is not sovereign. God's whole plan was finished before time began. He directs its sure and certain outcome by His providence.
What you are saying is that God has to react to what man does thus is not soverign. He is.
The elect are not "forced" but can be put in circumstances that really give them no choice in their elect minds. God does what is necessary to bring the elect to salvation. From the elect's side He freely chooses God. From God's side, and unknown to the elect, God apprehended Him.
FYI I am not a Calvinist.
It seems the Christian should be able to look back on his unsaved life and see God working sovereignly to break down thought patterns that opposed the gospel, preserving him, and directing him. He should soon realize that it was only from his side that he made a "freewill" choice. God really gave Him no choice.

 

[Axehead]

You mistake the doing of "good" using the thought pattern based on the knowledge of "good" and evil with actions led by the Holy Spirit of Life. Of course the usaved can do "good" on this basis. An example would be nationalism which does "good" and much evil. Another example would be the medical system which is the #3 killer in the US.
God can direct sinners to do "good" things to carry out His predestined plan and does using preventive, directive, permissive, and determinitive control. This does not mean that they are given "credit" for anything "good" they do. If this were true one could earn their way to God by doing "good".
Good in God's view is goodness based ONLY on the direction of the Holy Spirit of Life which no unsaved person has. Every other act of "goodness" is based on the knowledge of good and evil which man received as a result of sin in the garden. It is good to love and care for one's children and sinners do. However directing them in God's ways is the only good led by the Holy Spirit of Life. Man's depravity is determined by God's standard of Holiness which is Himself. Only those in Christ can meet that standard.
So here is the scripture that says no sinner can do good or seek after God:
Romans 3:10-18
New King James Version (NKJV)

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

So the fact that no one wills to seek God or is able to live doing any acts led by the Holy Spirit of Life means that if God did not elect some NONE would be saved.

The Bible cllearly says FEW will be saved. There will be multitudes but few compared to all those who are not.
Matthew 7:13-14
New King James Version (NKJV)

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The call of the gospel is given to ALL i.e. come to me all who are heavy laden.... The elect receive it as truth and respond bearing fruit of the Holy Spirit and enduring to the end. The rest do the "good": things to deal with their issues which they will NEVER see as rooted in their own sin thus they reject the call. Others do "good" things such as say the sinners prayer, join a church, follow the religious progam, get counseling, give 10%, teach Sunday school, sing in the choir, but still fulfill the negative verses of the parable of the sower. Why? They do not endure because they were not elect.
The problem is if you say man by his own free will choice can receive salvation it is NOT by grace ALONE. It is by grace alone which was bestowed, done, finished, and over with before time began by a SOVEREIGN God given to His elect. If that is not true then God is not sovereign therefore not God. He is both sovereign and God.

If sinners can do anything to receive salvation it is NOT grace. If man can receive or reject God He is dependent on what they do and is not sovereign. God's whole plan was finished before time began. He directs its sure and certain outcome by His providence.
What you are saying is that God has to react to what man does thus is not soverign. He is.
The elect are not "forced" but can be put in circumstances that really give them no choice in their elect minds. God does what is necessary to bring the elect to salvation. From the elect's side He freely chooses God. From God's side, and unknown to the elect, God apprehended Him.
FYI I am not a Calvinist.
It seems the Christian should be able to look back on his unsaved life and see God working sovereignly to break down thought patterns that opposed the gospel, preserving him, and directing him. He should soon realize that it was only from his side that he made a "freewill" choice. God really gave Him no choice.

For not being a "Calvinist" you are following their script perfectly. Ok, let's say you are not in the Calvinist camp, that does not change the fact that your theology is very Calvinistically oriented. You are using the exact scriptures they use.

I am glad you are fully coming out and being forthright about your beliefs.

Man responds to God's initiation. Man has to exercise his will to respond to God's "advances" towards him because it goes against God's character to violate man's will.

God does not react. God initiates, He comes to us and we either respond (choose, receive Him) decide not to respond. We choose to receive Him or we choose to reject Him. That is the function of CHOOSING creatures. We can exercise our will to receive Him (John_1:12) or reject Him. Unlike other creatures, God made man a "choosing" creature and the scriptures I have shown you which you do not comment on, prove that fallen man is capable of choosing "good" and though you do not recognize it, God certainly does. There are many more scriptures that demonstrate, though man is fallen, he is still capable of exercising his will to choose something good (God is good) for himself, to choose Life and not Death. Why would God tell OT Israel to "Choose Life or Death" if they were incapable of it? Seems a bit disingenuous to me. As if God is "playing" with people.

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Gen 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.

We know that man can exercise their will to refuse the Lord's advancements toward him because He has called and they chose to REFUSE.
Pro_1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

Obviously, God expects us to answer when He calls and to listen when He speaks. He knows that we can exercise our will to refuse or to receive Him.
Isa_65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Why would He be upset with man if He chooses some to salvation and some to destruction? Why does He waste so much paper in the Bible lamenting man's rebelliousness when He chose them to be rebellious (according to Calvinism)? This is disingenuous of God to expect people to answer when they are not the elect.

You would not expect God to lament the fact that people do not respond to Him if God was a Calvinist. Yet, in Isaiah we have this complaint from God. (Isa_65:2) I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

On the flip side, we have this.
Isa_65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

Why is God provoked to anger? You would think that He would expect this from those who were chosen for destruction.
Isa_65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

If man is incapable of making a choice, why is God surprised that they "would not go up"?
Deu_1:26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

Let's bring God's character (which does not change) into the NT.
Luke_13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Here, God is lamenting the fact that though He desires to save man (gather them unto Him), men chose not to as if to imply that He wished they would have chosen to respond to Him. Now, it does not make sense for God to chastise men who have Total Inability (Calvinist true meaning of Total Depravity) to choose good. That makes God a big "flake". Rather eccentric, wouldn't you say?

Should they have responded to God, "God, I can't respond to you in a positive choosing way, because I am not one of the Elect, so stop bothering me. It's not fair to keep beating me down since you know I have total inability to choose you, so stop acting so surprised that I am rebellious!!"

Isa_65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; Implying that they could have chosen to "WALK IN A WAY THAT WAS GOOD".

Why do we make the Gospel so difficult?

Axehead

If Calvinism is to be consistent, then babies go to hell to be tormented forever.

 

[Rex]

lesjude
The other side of the coin is this, that God searches the minds and hearts of men, it clearly plays a part in God choice in whom he places his Spirit.

Jeremiah 17:10
"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man
according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains
when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in
Christ is it taken away

Psalm 7:

9 Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end,
But establish the just;
For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.
10 My defense is of God,
Who saves the upright in heart.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which
believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the
image of God, should shine unto them.


Romans 8
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover
whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He
also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God calls to all, some are listening and some are not

Matthew 24:14
2 Peter 1:10-11
James 2:5
Matthew 6:33
Dan 12:2-3

 

[lesjude]

God does not react. God initiates, He comes to us and we either respond (choose, receive Him) decide not to respond. We choose to receive Him or we choose to reject Him. That is the function of CHOOSING creatures. We can exercise our will to receive Him (John_1:12) or reject Him.

That is not possible. It is ONLY from the sinner's side, elect or not, that he makes a "freewill" choice. Those that are not elect FREELY choose to keep on sinning becuse they only have a will to do that. The elect from their "freewill" choice receive GRACE to choose Jesus, make their calling and election sure by a walk of Bible faith, holiness, and the death of the self life i.e. obedience from a heart of love for Jesus. They do this not to be saved but because they are and have that assurance in their hearts. The gospel MUST be preached because no one knows which sinners are elect and which are not, and God allows all to make that free will choice.
Are you saying God does not know who will receive and who will reject the gospel from before the beginning of time? If you are then younare saying God is not God. IF you are saying He used His foreknowledge to look down history to see how each would respond and then elect the ones who would receive that is NOT grace, but man doing something of his own free will.
The Bible clearly says the elect were chosen before time began by God not by ANY choice they would make in the future.



>
Unlike other creatures, God made man a "choosing" creature and the scriptures I have shown you which you do not comment on, prove that fallen man is capable of choosing "good" and though you do not recognize it, God certainly does. There are many more scriptures that demonstrate, though man is fallen, he is still capable of exercising his will to choose something good (God is good) for himself, to choose Life and not Death. Why would God tell OT Israel to "Choose Life or Death" if they were incapable of it? Seems a bit disingenuous to me. As if God is "playing" with people.

In short "freewill" choice is nothing more than how and to what extent people choose to disobey God. Sinners have no other concern but doing what is riight in their own sight. Once the elect recieves salvation freewill is not an issue. It becomes Lord what is your will and the self life will be put to death in the lives of the elect. If you want toi know what the elect can and will know read the book of 1 John. The rest even if they profess Christianity could hardly care less just like the Jews Jesus wanted to gather. It is just as Jesus said twice, they did not come because they were not drawn by the Father. They were given the call and will be judged based on their own freewill choice which is why they were given the call. Some did receive which was the other reason Jesus gave the call. They were the ELECT chosen before time began.

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Very few did. The call was given for the elect to respond and for judgement of those that refused.

Gen 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad

The ONLY thing that this shows is that God gives direction to the unsaved. Some have the good sense abd are spiritual enough to heed. Old Laban was right on the edge of grace by what he told Jacob. It is a simple example of doing "good" for the wrong reasons. It certainly was NOT what was in his heart!

We know that man can exercise their will to refuse the Lord's advancements toward him because He has called and they chose to REFUSE.
Pro_1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

You leave out WHY they refused: John 6:65

New King James Version (NKJV)

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Guess who they are?

Obviously, God expects us to answer when He calls and to listen when He speaks. He knows that we can exercise our will to refuse or to receive Him.
Isa_65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Yes God knows and has known before the beginning of time.

Why would He be upset with man if He chooses some to salvation and some to destruction? Why does He waste so much paper in the Bible lamenting man's rebelliousness when He chose them to be rebellious (according to Calvinism)? This is disingenuous of God to expect people to answer when they are not the elect.

For His GLORY!!!
Romans 9:21-22
New King James Version (NKJV)


21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

You would not expect God to lament the fact that people do not respond to Him if God was a Calvinist. Yet, in Isaiah we have this complaint from God. (Isa_65:2) I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

God is grieved at the wilfull stubborn rebellion of all men.
On the flip side, we have this.

Isa_65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

The elect of the gentiles. ONLY the elect of this group have any interest in the gospel.

Why is God provoked to anger? You would think that He would expect this from those who were chosen for destruction.
Isa_65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

He was talking to the Jews who were the ONLY nation God chose. The elect seed of Abraham obeyed and were faithful. The rest, despite all the revelation, still rejected God by a freewill choice.

If man is incapable of making a choice, why is God surprised that they "would not go up"?
Deu_1:26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

If you believe God can be surprised by anything you do not believe He is sovereign. You do not know the God of the Bible very well.

Let's bring God's character (which does not change) into the NT.



Luke_13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!


Here, God is lamenting the fact that though He desires to save man (gather them unto Him), men chose not to as if to imply that He wished they would have chosen to respond to Him. Now, it does not make sense for God to chastise men who have Total Inability (Calvinist true meaning of Total Depravity) to choose good. That makes God a big "flake". Rather eccentric, wouldn't you say?

They had freewill and chose not to enjoy His blessings which they believed with all their hearts they already had. They are no different then the nominal Christians of today who only think they have on a wedding garment, oil in their lamps, but are bearing nothing but the fruit of man's religious systems.

Should they have responded to God, "God, I can't respond to you in a positive choosing way, because I am not one of the Elect, so stop bothering me. It's not fair to keep beating me down since you know I have total inability to choose you, so stop acting so surprised that I am rebellious!!"

No, because they believed with all their hearts they were the elect seed of Abraham already. Here is what they had and God gave it to them: 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. Is the NT not clear that God blinded the Jews EXCEPT for the few elect that received Christ!

Why do we make the Gospel so difficult?

Axehead

If Calvinism is to be consistent, then babies go to hell to be tormented forever.

Ecclesiates 12:13-14
Some do.



lesjude
The other side of the coin is this, that God searches the minds and hearts of men, it clearly plays a part in God choice in whom he places his Spirit.










No, that would not be grace but some merit of the person.

 

[Rex]

No, that would not be grace but some merit of the person.

So God is unconcerned with the hearts and minds of men? Just what does he run then a lottery?

I guess were going to have to ignore lots of verses like, repent and be baptized.
And every other place we are told to turn away from sin or doing evil before the Lord, by your reckoning it makes little no difference.

Ex-streams from every side

Seek and you shall find, why would Jesus say such a thing If it were not true.
By your apparent understanding it should read, seek and hope your ticket is picked.

I don;t believe I can improve upone the words of Charles Spurgeon when it comes to this Antinomian, and Arminian venture

“Sovereign Grace and Man’s Responsibility,”​

The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will
ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the
two lines at once.

I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am
taught in another place, that “it is not of him that willeth nor of him
that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.”

I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I
see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God
has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure.

Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was
no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to
Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all
things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at
once into Antinomianism or fatalism.

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two
things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and
contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak
judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.

If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is
fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is
responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that
leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.

These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into
one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are
two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue
them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do
converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne
of God, whence all truth doth spring.






Closing points in this sermon

Where we get wrong is where the Calvinist begins to meddle with the
question of damnation, and interferes with the justice of God; or when
the Arminian denies the doctrine of grace............


........................

Now, with regard to myself; you may some of you go away and say, that
I was Antinomian in the first part of the sermon and Arminian at the
end. I care not. I beg of you to search the Bible for yourselves. To the
law and to the testimony; if I speak not according to this Word, it is
because there is no light in me. I am willing to come to that test. Have
nothing to do with me where I have nothing to do with Christ. Where I
separate from the truth, cast my words away. But if what I say be God's
teaching, I charge you, by him that sent me, give these things your
thoughts, and turn unto the Lord with all your hearts.


- Charles Haddon Spurgeon from his sermon “Sovereign Grace and Man’s Responsibility,” originally delivered Sunday morning, August 1, 1858, at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens, London.

 

[lesjude]

So God is unconcerned with the hearts and minds of men? Just what does he run then a lottery?

I guess were going to have to ignore lots of verses like, repent and be baptized.
And every other place we are told to turn away from sin or doing evil before the Lord, by your reckoning it makes little no difference.

Ex-streams from every side

Seek and you shall find, why would Jesus say such a thing If it were not true.
By your apparent understanding it should read, seek and hope your ticket is picked.

God has made His "picks" before the beginning of time. He is VERY concerned with the hearts and minds of His elect. The rest are a "concern" to the extent that they are under His Providential control to see to it His predetermined plan is perfectly carried out. They can even be used to bless the elect and are. He even gives their lives for His elect. They even bless the elect with persecution. So you see they are quite useful.

The elect seek until they are found. The rest either become religious or do what is "good" and hope. The obits are full of people and their families who died believing both those lies "hoping".
Hope has nothing to do with it. The elect KNOW. The elect receive a measure of faith at salvation and allow the Holy Spirit to train them in its use and do what the Bible says to increase that faith. They also take the responsibility to do what 2 Peter 5-11 says as well as allowing the Holy Spirit to put the self life to death, live Matthew 5, 6 and 7 before God and the world, and do what Matthew 10:7-8, Mark 16:17-18 say at every opportunity. This is what the Bibe calls fruit If one is not at least open to a Spirit led life to do these things the Bible gives NO assurance of salvation. Rebelling at the Acts 2:4 experience is NOT a good first step down the path of a Spirit led life nor is refusing water baptism by immersion as a believing adult in JESUS' name. The Bible gives no assurance to those who die in rebellion against God's righteous commands in these two areas. This adds new meaningto "few" and election
Here is the heart attitude of the elect and they KNOW they have it:
1 John 5:1-4
New King James Version (NKJV)


5 Whoever
believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who
loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.

 

[veteran]

The OP does sound like the foolishness of Calvinism. But I haven't got past his idea that Christianity is foolishness yet.

 

[lesjude]

The OP does sound like the foolishness of Calvinism. But I haven't got past his idea that Christianity is foolishness yet.

No worries. If you are elect you will "get past" and think you made a freewill choice doing it.

 

[Rex]

The OP does sound like the foolishness of Calvinism. But I haven't got past his idea that Christianity is foolishness yet.

I believe he is referring to 1 Cor 1:18-31

No worries. If you are elect you will "get past" and think you made a freewill choice doing it.

I like to refer to Calvinist has having only one eye.