Does the Church still possess miraculous gifts today?

[Wormwood]

In order to keep threads on topic, I have created this thread to help channel a discussion on this subject matter. This thread will explore the role of miraculous gifts in the life of the New Testament church and discuss/debate issues such as:

1. Is the Holy Spirit still giving people these gifts?
2. Can everyone expect to have particular supernatural gifts and if so, which ones (healing, prophecy, knowledge, tongues, etc.)
3. If Christians are to have these gifts, why do some groups/denominations not have them?
4. If the Holy Spirit is no longer giving these gifts, what texts do you use to support this view?

Here are just a few areas that should be discussed on this subject. Remember, please keep the debate about doctrine and Scripture and do not attack the individual. If Christ can love and forgive those who were killing him, how much more should we be kind and gracious toward brothers and sisters with whom we disagree on debatable matters.

 

[KingJ]

1. Yes. We cannot put God in a box.
2. Yes. We can expect to have all as it is God's will.
3. His will.
4. There aren't any. It is an undisputable fact that He gives these gifts.

But here is the issue that most can't comprehend. His will is that gifts that appear to be magical are an absolute last resort.

Just as in the other thread the miracles in Africa were contrasted with the lack thereof in the West. The argument was that Africans mostly had more faith. But this could not be further from the truth. The truth is that God has not much choice other then to ''miraculously' heal those in dire straits who have no access to medical facilities. Much like He had to protect the Jews to achieve His purpose with them. He has a purpose that He will see fulfilled in each one of us.

What we have to grasp is that God would have preferred to not have had to annihilate the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. God would have preferred to not have had to part the red sea, daily rain food and provide shade for the Jews in the desert. Jesus left us, so that we could live by faith. God put mankind on earth when He is in heaven, so that mankind could live by faith.

God is impartial and the only requirement to having His ear is being God fearing and doing His will John 9:31. This is what we are to pursue. Having His ear. Gifts can come and go. Nobody has a gift like Samson did. We have to understand that. All gifts are given for a purpose. If there is no purpose, they are not given. Otherwise they would puff up egos and cause vanity. God would be stumbling us.

Scripture says: ''Anyone who believes in Jesus shall do the works he did and even greater works than these''.

What did Jesus do that we will better? Feed 6000 vs 5000? Sleep on water vs walk on water? In the OT that would be a noteworthy feat. In the NT it is a joke. Jesus would say it takes less faith then a mustard seed. The great work Jesus did was to feed 5000 empty bellies. We can do this today with soup kitchens. We don't need to turn two fish into 5000. Sick people can be helped to hospitals.

If we ignore medicines and soup kitchens we are like a person drowning in the sea ignoring a log passing by. Thinking positive thought and reciting scripture multiple times will cause a rescue yacht to come. This is foolishness, vanity, testing and tempting God. This is what a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after Matt 16:4. I guess it should not be a surprise that such a generation exist in the last days.

 

[Deborah_]

I did a post on this subject only a few weeks ago:

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/22315-the-gifts-of-the-spirit-some-principles/

As for the four questions above, here are my answers:

1) Yes.
2) I do not believe we can dictate to the Holy Spirit which gifts to give us. "He distributes them to each one, just as He determines." (I Corinthians 12:11)
3) They are present in all denominations, but often not recognised as such or called by different names.

http://samstorms.com/enjoying-god-blog/post/spiritual-gifts-in-church-history--1-

4) Not applicable

 

[StanJ]

In order to keep threads on topic, I have created this thread to help channel a discussion on this subject matter. This thread will explore the role of miraculous gifts in the life of the New Testament church and discuss/debate issues such as:

1. Is the Holy Spirit still giving people these gifts?
2. Can everyone expect to have particular supernatural gifts and if so, which ones (healing, prophecy, knowledge, tongues, etc.)
3. If Christians are to have these gifts, why do some groups/denominations not have them?
4. If the Holy Spirit is no longer giving these gifts, what texts do you use to support this view?

Here are just a few areas that should be discussed on this subject. Remember, please keep the debate about doctrine and Scripture and do not attack the individual. If Christ can love and forgive those who were killing him, how much more should we be kind and gracious toward brothers and sisters with whom we disagree on debatable matters.

1. Yes
2. No
3. Because some denominations don't believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit or anything to do with the Holy Spirit.
4. I have personally witnessed it over my 45 years as a believer so I have to say a big fat negatory. He is still active and viable today as he always has been.

 

[Wormwood]

Thanks for responding, Stan. I am not saying I disagree with your statements, but my follow-up questions to you are....

Where do we find in the NT that someone should expect or seek the Holy Spirit to move in a miraculous way in order for Him to do so? I do not see any accounts in Acts or the Epistles that suggest a person should desire/expect the miraculous as a mandatory prerequisite for such gifts to be given. In fact, it seems like people were often stunned at what God was going and did not expect such events to happen in any way (cf. Acts 10 & 11). If the Spirit gives gifts as He wills, then why wouldn't he will to give gifts of healing or tongues to believers who need to understand the importance of such gifts? After all, if the gifts are for edifying the body, why not provide eyes to parts of the body that need sight, or feet so the body can walk? If a person has faith in the blood of Jesus, is that still not sufficient for the Spirit to move in their lives without faith and an expectation that God will do something supernatural in and through them?

 

[StanJ]

But here is the issue that most can't comprehend. His will is that gifts that appear to be magical are an absolute last resort.

Oh I can comprehend it okay because I actually study the whole Bible and don't pick out certain verses out of context or call it magic.

Matt 10:8
John 14:12
Acts 3:6
Acts 5:16
Acts 10:37-38
1 Cor 12:9, 27-29
James 5:14-16

 

[StanJ]

Thanks for responding, Stan. I am not saying I disagree with your statements, but my follow-up questions to you are....

Where do we find in the NT that someone should expect or seek the Holy Spirit to move in a miraculous way in order for Him to do so? I do not see any accounts in Acts or the Epistles that suggest a person should desire/expect the miraculous as a mandatory prerequisite for such gifts to be given. In fact, it seems like people were often stunned at what God was going and did not expect such events to happen in any way (cf. Acts 10 & 11). If the Spirit gives gifts as He wills, then why wouldn't he will to give gifts of healing or tongues to believers who need to understand the importance of such gifts? After all, if the gifts are for edifying the body, why not provide eyes to parts of the body that need sight, or feet so the body can walk? If a person has faith in the blood of Jesus, is that still not sufficient for the Spirit to move in their lives without faith and an expectation that God will do something supernatural in and through them?

Post #6

 

[Wormwood]

I read through the verses. I agree that they all speak of various gifts that were in operation in the church. But I dont see a verse that teaches that a person must expect or believe that a gift exists in order for them to receive it. Cornelius had no notion of the gift of tongues (nor did the Apostles) before they were filled with the Spirit and began to speak in other tongues. So why must a person believe that the gift exists in order to receive it when none of the examples we have in Scripture indicate that those who were given the gift had any prior knowledge that such gifts even existed? My question then is, why wouldn't God do the same thing today? Why must a person be coached to desire and expect a gift in order for them to receive it when there is no NT teaching that suggests this is a necessary condition for the bestowal of some gifts? Rather, the Spirit seems to have given these gifts in spite of these people's ignorance of them and yet they operated in them all the same.

 

[StanJ]

I read through the verses. I agree that they all speak of various gifts that were in operation in the church. But I dont see a verse that teaches that a person must expect or believe that a gift exists in order for them to receive it. Cornelius had no notion of the gift of tongues (nor did the Apostles) before they were filled with the Spirit and began to speak in other tongues. So why must a person believe that the gift exists in order to receive it when none of the examples we have in Scripture indicate that those who were given the gift had any prior knowledge that such gifts even existed? My question then is, why wouldn't God do the same thing today? Why must a person be coached to desire and expect a gift in order for them to receive it when there is no NT teaching that suggests this is a necessary condition for the bestowal of some gifts? Rather, the Spirit seems to have given these gifts in spite of these people's ignorance of them and yet they operated in them all the same.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here, but I didn't say that a person must believe that the gift exists in order for them to receive it. A person must have faith that God has given them a gift in order to use it. That is what stepping out in faith is all about when it comes to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
FYI the initial evidence of speaking in tongues is not the same as the gift of speaking in tongues. What Cornelius and his group experience was the initial evidence of the in filling of the Holy Spirit. That is more a prayer and praise language. It is not what Paul refers to in 1st Corinthians 14. It's obvious that Paul knew about the gifts so I would have to say that given the writings by himself and all other authors in the New Testament came after they taught, there obviously was Revelation from God before hand. Now that they are in his written word we don't require any specific Apostolic Revelation 2 believe that what is written in the New Testament is truth, which of course I can't see as being a problem. Can you?
I don't agree with your statement that there is no New Testament teaching. There is some, because we can see it and there is other teaching that we can't see because it was verbal. Believers didn't accomplish this through osmosis. I personally may have learned about the gifts from reading the New Testament after I got saved but I don't know how long that would have been? The point is I learned about it through being taught by the leadership in the church I was saved in.
Remember just as John stated that not all the books in the world could contain everything that Jesus did, we also can't believe that all the books in the world could contain all the teaching that the apostles did. We have what we have now, and I find it useless to speculate about what may have been. In my opinion, we have now, in the written word of God, what was being verbalized in the early church.

 

[brakelite]

The greatest gift God can offer any of His children is today seemingly the least desired...that of a changed life. It is one thing to seek for the spectacular and some outward manifestation in order to find affirmation of ones faith...it is quite another to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and then discover inward affirmation. The fruit of the Spirit should be sought for a long time before signs and wonders.

 

[KingJ]

Oh I can comprehend it okay because I actually study the whole Bible and don't pick out certain verses out of context or call it magic.

1. Matt 10:8
2. John 14:12
3. Acts 3:6
4. Acts 5:16
5. Acts 10:37-38
6. 1 Cor 12:9, 27-29
7. James 5:14-16

Most are not interested in the infilling of the Holy Spirit. They want powers like superman or to see magic to tickle thier ears / increase their vanity. Can you really not agree with that? Magic is not a bad word either as has been explained to you. Healing can be magical.

Can you prove I picked verses out of context?

1. Matt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2. Quote from my first post ''What did Jesus do that we will better? Feed 6000 with one fish? Sleep on water vs walk on water? In the OT that would be a noteworthy feat. In the NT it is a joke. Jesus would say it takes less faith then a mustard seed. The great work Jesus did was to feed 5000 empty bellies. We can do this today with soup kitchens. We don't need to turn two fish into 5000. Sick people can be helped to hospitals.''.

3. Have you ever tried this? The fact that there are many Christians filled with the Holy Spirit and yet MANY lame beggars that stand at traffic lights does not tell you something? If one cannot read scripture with sanity and lateral thought they should not be allowed to preach it.

4. See 1. and 3.

5. ''How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him''.

6. Quote from my first post ''Nobody has a gift like Samson did. We have to understand that. All gifts are given for a purpose. If there is no purpose, they are not given. Otherwise they would puff up egos and cause vanity. God would be stumbling us''.

7. Why call for the elders? Would God forgive sins without repentance? What faith is in the prayer of faith? Please see last line of pt 3.

 

[StanJ]

Most are not interested in the infilling of the Holy Spirit. They want powers like superman or to see magic to tickle thier ears / increase their vanity. Can you really not agree with that? Magic is not a bad word either as has been explained to you. Healing can be magical.
Can you prove I picked verses out of context?

Again your opinion and not reality. Anybody can see that they're picked out of context if they know how to read the Bible and understand the context vs how you tried to use them.

1. Matt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Powers not Magic. Power is what God gives us to do the miraculous. Miracles are not magic as the Bible clearly indicates.

2. Quote from my first post ''What did Jesus do that we will better? Feed 6000 with one fish? Sleep on water vs walk on water? In the OT that would be a noteworthy feat. In the NT it is a joke. Jesus would say it takes less faith then a mustard seed. The great work Jesus did was to feed 5000 empty bellies. We can do this today with soup kitchens. We don't need to turn two fish into 5000. Sick people can be helped to hospitals.''.
3. Have you ever tried this? The fact that there are many Christians filled with the Holy Spirit and yet MANY lame beggars that stand at traffic lights does not tell you something? If one cannot read scripture with sanity and lateral thought they should not be allowed to preach it.

This is all conjecture and not worth responding to seeing as though it's not a reality. If you were indeed reading scripture with sanity and lateral thought you wouldn't be having a problem here.

5. ''How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him''.
6. Quote from my first post ''Nobody has a gift like Samson did. We have to understand that. All gifts are given for a purpose. If there is no purpose, they are not given. Otherwise they would puff up egos and cause vanity. God would be stumbling us''.
7. Why call for the elders? Would God forgive sins without repentance? What faith is in the prayer of faith? Please see last line of pt 3.

Not talking about Old Testament gifts and healing were talking about New Testament Gifts of healing. You seem to not be able to separate the two? What Samson had was definitely God-given, but it had conditions 2 which Samuel was not able to conform to all of the time. Regardless it's irrelevant to this issue.
We call for the elders because that's what God commanded us to do but sadly for some reason you think you have a choice to pick and choose what commands to follow and what commands you don't, and what commands you agree with and what commands you don't.

 

[Wormwood]

FYI the initial evidence of speaking in tongues is not the same as the gift of speaking in tongues. What Cornelius and his group experience was the initial evidence of the in filling of the Holy Spirit.

Well, I personally do not separate the two. I think both are described as "tongues" and I dont see anything that would suggest what Paul is describing in 1 Cor. 14 is any different from what we see taking place in Acts.

Now that they are in his written word we don't require any specific Apostolic Revelation 2 believe that what is written in the New Testament is truth, which of course I can't see as being a problem. Can you?

I agree the NT is truth . Not even the cessationist would argue otherwise. I guess they would just suggest that certain gifts served a purpose and that purpose is no longer needed. I agree with the premise of that, but not necessarily the absolute view that all such miraculous gifts have ceased. I wouldnt try to put God in a box and say he will not do a certain thing....I am not convinced 1 Cor. 13 is talking about the canon of the NT as many cessationists argue.

I don't agree with your statement that there is no New Testament teaching. There is some, because we can see it and there is other teaching that we can't see because it was verbal. Believers didn't accomplish this through osmosis. I personally may have learned about the gifts from reading the New Testament after I got saved but I don't know how long that would have been? The point is I learned about it through being taught by the leadership in the church I was saved in.

Well, I guess one can argue that they taught it but we just dont have it...but that still isnt very convincing to me. I mean, if God wants to give people tongues but being coached and encouraged to attempt to use such a gift is a necessary condition of recieving the gift, why wouldnt Paul give some instruction on this? Why wouldnt God give us some instruction in the NT that would tell us, "Hey, some gifts you need to have faith they exist and be coached in if my Spirit is to give them to you." Yet there is no such teaching that I am aware of. There is no passage in the NT that says, "Encourage new believers to attempt to heal blind people so they can see if they have the gift of miraculous healing." Or, "Encourage young believers to attempt to prophesy or predict the future so they can see if they have those gifts and if they dont have the faith to try, I wont give them those gifts."

I guess that is my point. I dont dimiss the idea that someone could have the gift of "knowledge" but I just dont see anything that says someone has to anticipate the gift before they qualify as a candidate to receive it.

 

[StanJ]

Well, I personally do not separate the two. I think both are described as "tongues" and I dont see anything that would suggest what Paul is describing in 1 Cor. 14 is any different from what we see taking place in Acts.

Yes they are both described as tongues, but the first was the initial evidence of the in filling of the Holy Spirit. It was an outward expression of an inward manifestation. The second are called gifts. The first were used to express prayerful and joyous praise to God the second are used by us for God to make himself known to unbelieving men. 1 Cor 14:22.

I agree the NT is truth . Not even the cessationist would argue otherwise. I guess they would just suggest that certain gifts served a purpose and that purpose is no longer needed. I agree with the premise of that, but not necessarily the absolute view that all such miraculous gifts have ceased. I wouldnt try to put God in a box and say he will not do a certain thing....I am not convinced 1 Cor. 13 is talking about the canon of the NT as many cessationists argue.

The cessationist point of view is like a bull in a china shop sweeping aside everything in its path. Nowhere in the New Testament is this taught. In my opinion First Corinthians 13 is based on the last verse of 1st Corinthians 12 and must be read in context with it.

Well, I guess one can argue that they taught it but we just dont have it...but that still isnt very convincing to me. I mean, if God wants to give people tongues but being coached and encouraged to attempt to use such a gift is a necessary condition of recieving the gift, why wouldnt Paul give some instruction on this? Why wouldnt God give us some instruction in the NT that would tell us, "Hey, some gifts you need to have faith they exist and be coached in if my Spirit is to give them to you." Yet there is no such teaching that I am aware of. There is no passage in the NT that says, "Encourage new believers to attempt to heal blind people so they can see if they have the gift of miraculous healing." Or, "Encourage young believers to attempt to prophesy or predict the future so they can see if they have those gifts and if they dont have the faith to try, I wont give them those gifts."

Many do have it and I guess it depends on the determination that one grows up in as to whether they do or not? As a person who is saved in a Pentecostal Church I grew up with it and experience the in filling of the Holy Spirit shortly after I was saved. The teaching I received was simply the reading of the word to show out we should seek the in filling of the Holy Spirit just as Jesus taught the apostles to wait. We were taught to prayerfully wait to receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit and in most cases laying on of hands does not happen as is the case showing through out Acts. The one occasion and Acts 19 where Paul laid hands on Disciples of Jesus who then receive the Holy Spirit is the only one indicated in that fashion. I have experienced both scenarios in my lifetime and just as it is with any gifts God gives they are not all used in the same way or received in the same fashion as we are all individuals. It's not a matter of encouraging young believers to attempt to do anything it's a matter of instructing unbelievers about what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 14. The teaching is not a one-time thing it is consistent until that person begins to utilize what God has given them. There is always a lot of doubt with some people and with others no doubt at all. What Paul says in 1Cor 14:32 has to be kept at the forefront of any person's mind that uses the gifts of the Spirit.

I guess that is my point. I dont dimiss the idea that someone could have the gift of "knowledge" but I just dont see anything that says someone has to anticipate the gift before they qualify as a candidate to receive it.

Not anticipate, as Paul says not all prophesy or speak in tongues with interpretation. What believers have to do however is to learn the inner prodding of the Holy Spirit so as to step out in faith to exercise the gift that God is telling them inwardly to use. It is simply a matter of putting feet to faith.

 

[Wormwood]

Yes they are both described as tongues, but the first was the initial evidence of the in filling of the Holy Spirit. It was an outward expression of an inward manifestation. The second are called gifts. The first were used to express prayerful and joyous praise to God the second are used by us for God to make himself known to unbelieving men. 1 Cor 14:22.

Well, I have to respectfully disagree here. Acts 2 makes it clear that the gift was a sign to the unbelievers in their midst. It seems to be the exact same thing Paul describes in 1 Cor. 14. Nowhere in the NT do we find explanations about two kinds of tongues. We have narratives about tongues and then we have explanations about what tongues is in an epistle. To me, they both match up. The same word is used and there is nothing in the NT that would suggest that there are two different events taking place here. Both refer to languages. Both are shown to be a sign to unbelievers, and both talk about someone speaking to or giving praise to God. Thus, I see no reason to create distinctions or two classifications of "tongues" when only one word is used and nothing in the NT suggests there are two different types of it.

The cessationist point of view is like a bull in a china shop sweeping aside everything in its path. Nowhere in the New Testament is this taught. In my opinion First Corinthians 13 is based on the last verse of 1st Corinthians 12 and must be read in context with it.

Well I agree with you in not accepting cessationism, but I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly. I have read some very persuasive and intelligent arguments from them, but I wont go into all of that here. Suffice it to say neither of us accept that cessationism is taught in the NT.

Not anticipate, as Paul says not all prophesy or speak in tongues with interpretation. What believers have to do however is to learn the inner prodding of the Holy Spirit so as to step out in faith to exercise the gift that God is telling them inwardly to use. It is simply a matter of putting feet to faith.

I guess that is what I wrestle with from the charismatic perspective. I just find it too coincidental that someone has certain supernatural gifts because they happened to be in a church that taught them to try to speak in tongues whereas when no such instruction and examples are given to a person, they do not display such gifts. Yet, in the NT, people spoke in tongues without coaching, teaching, or expectation of those gifts. It seems that many had various gifts in Corinth and this was surprising to Paul. He was happy that they didnt lack any gifts, but nothing seems to indicate that he had taught them to seek such things out. They already had the gifts and didnt even know what they were for! That is why Paul is writing to rebuke them and tell them what the gifts are for....the edification of others and not for selfish purposes. Sorry, short on time. Gotta run.

 

[StanJ]

Well, I have to respectfully disagree here. Acts 2 makes it clear that the gift was a sign to the unbelievers in their midst. It seems to be the exact same thing Paul describes in 1 Cor. 14. Nowhere in the NT do we find explanations about two kinds of tongues. We have narratives about tongues and then we have explanations about what tongues is in an epistle. To me, they both match up. The same word is used and there is nothing in the NT that would suggest that there are two different events taking place here. Both refer to languages. Both are shown to be a sign to unbelievers, and both talk about someone speaking to or giving praise to God. Thus, I see no reason to create distinctions or two classifications of "tongues" when only one word is used and nothing in the NT suggests there are two different types of it.

Read Acts 2:11 to see what was going on. The apostles were praising God but the Holy Spirit was also letting the God-fearing Jews hear these Praises in their own language. This is not what Paul is dealing with in First Corinthians 14. The type of tongues that is depicted in several places in Acts is the language of praise and worship. It is used by Spirit-filled Christians all the time in their private worship. Paul instructed that it should not be used in public worship but should be accompanied by interpretation. Mine is not to reason why, I just follow it Paul teaches. I speak in tongues all the time or a lot of the time in my prayer language.

Well I agree with you in not accepting cessationism, but I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly. I have read some very persuasive and intelligent arguments from them, but I wont go into all of that here. Suffice it to say neither of us accept that cessationism is taught in the NT.

Yes and I've debated many cessationists about this and inevitably it doesn't end well.

I guess that is what I wrestle with from the charismatic perspective. I just find it too coincidental that someone has certain supernatural gifts because they happened to be in a church that taught them to try to speak in tongues whereas when no such instruction and examples are given to a person, they do not display such gifts. Yet, in the NT, people spoke in tongues without coaching, teaching, or expectation of those gifts. It seems that many had various gifts in Corinth and this was surprising to Paul. He was happy that they didnt lack any gifts, but nothing seems to indicate that he had taught them to seek such things out. They already had the gifts and didnt even know what they were for! That is why Paul is writing to rebuke them and tell them what the gifts are for....the edification of others and not for selfish purposes. Sorry, short on time. Gotta run.

That's not my experience, but I understand what you're saying. If you've never seen it done spontaneously then it's hard for you to think that it can be. I think what Peter experienced in Acts 10 is a good indication that it is definitely spontaneous, but I'm also sure that the people Paul was addressing in First Corinthians 14 had some teaching on the matter before this problem actually arose.

 

[KingJ]

Again your opinion and not reality. Anybody can see that they're picked out of context if they know how to read the Bible and understand the context vs how you tried to use them.

You have adressed nothing. Just a ''you are wrong and I am right''.

Powers not Magic. Power is what God gives us to do the miraculous. Miracles are not magic as the Bible clearly indicates.

The only point with quoting Matt 10:1 was to show you that He gave them powers. Not you. Not me. You used Matt 10:8 out of context.

This is all conjecture and not worth responding to seeing as though it's not a reality. If you were indeed reading scripture with sanity and lateral thought you wouldn't be having a problem here.

I believe I have debunked your intended purpose for / understanding of those scriptures. I want you to challenge it. Your reply is just another ''you are dumb and I am genius'.

Not talking about Old Testament gifts and healing were talking about New Testament Gifts of healing. You seem to not be able to separate the two? What Samson had was definitely God-given, but it had conditions 2 which Samuel was not able to conform to all of the time. Regardless it's irrelevant to this issue.
We call for the elders because that's what God commanded us to do but sadly for some reason you think you have a choice to pick and choose what commands to follow and what commands you don't, and what commands you agree with and what commands you don't.

Samson is relevant because his power was on call. Now many Christians who beleive all must be healed / anytime they pray, think they have power like Samson.

Why did God command us to call for elders?

I don't pick and choose. Can you prove I do? I really do try to grasp context, heremenutics and hold onto sanity. You are just insulting and evading.

 

[KingJ]

What believers have to do however is to learn the inner prodding of the Holy Spirit so as to step out in faith to exercise the gift that God is telling them inwardly to use. It is simply a matter of putting feet to faith.

The truth in your statement is obedience to the Holy Spirit. Agreed. But you leave the door open on obedience being a gift of miraculous healing / miraculous prophecy etc.

Thereby putting uneccessary pressure on the Christian to think that if nothing miraculous (magical) takes place, they have little to no faith. This is borderline satanism. Positivity (faith in faith) = magic. Expectation of a visual / ear tickling miracle VS an unseen miracle.

It is high time we all grasp that the miracle in the gift of healing is the healing and not the miraculous fashion in which it was done by Jesus and the disciples.

What was the miracle in feeding 5000? A. Two fish becoming 5000 or B. 5000 empty bellies being fed?

 

[StanJ]

You have adressed nothing. Just a ''you are wrong and I am right''.

Address if they weren't applicable, and if you're going to use scripture you have to show how they actually apply, that's called exegesis.

The only point with quoting Matt 10:1 was to show you that He gave them powers. Not you. Not me. You used Matt 10:8 out of context.

So you admit that you used Matthew 10 to obfuscate or deflect from the issue?

I believe I have debunked your intended purpose for / understanding of those scriptures. I want you to challenge it. Your reply is just another ''you are dumb and I am genius'.

You actually have to say something about it in order to debunk someone else. Just opining about your continued point of view is not debunking.
I'd be more than happy for you to challenge me but so far you have failed to do so and just keep reiterating the same old opinion. Put some support behind it or move on.

Samson is relevant because his power was on call. Now many Christians who beleive all must be healed / anytime they pray, think they have power like Samson.

You fail to understand the story of Samson obviously. His power was not on call, his power was from God. The fact that he was a Nazarite was not where his power came from what was part and parcel of his dedication to God. The fact also is that Samson really didn't understand where his power came from and thought, based on his religious practices, that it came from his hair. God showed him in the end, where his power actually came from God. Sadly, he had to die to find that out.

Why did God command us to call for elders?

Does it matter to you? Do you have to mentally assent to the validity of the command before you follow it?

I don't pick and choose. Can you prove I do? I really do try to grasp context, heremenutics and hold onto sanity. You are just insulting and evading.

You're the one who framed all the questions and ask them so ask yourself. Pointing out reality is not a matter of being insulted and I definitely don't evade anything unlike you in actually addressing this question with nothing.

 

[StanJ]

The truth in your statement is obedience to the Holy Spirit. Agreed. But you leave the door open on obedience being a gift of miraculous healing / miraculous prophecy etc.
Thereby putting uneccessary pressure on the Christian to think that if nothing miraculous (magical) takes place, they have little to no faith. This is borderline satanism. Positivity (faith in faith) = magic. Expectation of a visual / ear tickling miracle VS an unseen miracle.

Obedience is obedience, it's plain and simple and it doesn't imply that anybody is leaving a door open for obedience to be a miraculous gift of healing. You're not the judge of what is unnecessary pressure, God decides what he wants us to do in our lives and he is the one who knows all. It sounds to me like you personally have never experienced any miracles in your life and you're feeling guilty about it or at the very least self-conscious?
Your continued attempt to try and associate Miracles with magic is a very disturbing trend and I would caution you to not push it too far otherwise you may reap something you may not want to. You have been shown that the Bible clearly condemns Magic.

It is high time we all grasp that the miracle in the gift of healing is the healing and not the miraculous fashion in which it was done by Jesus and the disciples.
What was the miracle in feeding 5000? A. Two fish becoming 5000 or B. 5000 empty bellies being fed?

Nobody on this thread just now is having a problem with grasping what miracles are accept you. You're the one that continues to assert that Miracles are magic. Miracles are events that happen by the intervention of God they would not normally happen. Basic high school understanding or even grade school if you ask me so I'm not really sure why you continue to harp on this when everybody here understands, except for it seems your self?