1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Easter

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Webers_Home, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,605
    Likes Received:
    2,828
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Soooo, why is it okay for YOU to use information from wikipedia and other sources without using actual quotes - but it's NOT okay for ME to do the same thing?? I'm quoting fro secondary scholarly Jewish sources for which I have given website information.

    The more information I present, the more desperate your objections become . . .
    I just TOLD you what he was referring to - that ANY portion of an "onah" represents ALL of it.
    And, as I explained - rather, as Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah explained - a Day and Night is an "Onah".
    No - you're stonewalling because you CAN'T explain your way out of the Markan timeline.

    Your case dies with Mark's Gospel because you've taken ALL of your verses from the other Gospels OUT of their proper context.

    I've asked you 4 times now - POINT-BLANK to explain this timeline and you have failed.
    You keep using the rabbinic argument as a red-herring - but I refuse to let this go . . .
     
  2. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,974
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    What I had said was that the Palm Sunday event occurred on Saturday evening during the twilight hours of the day. That is it occurred on the first day of the week, which in the Jewish traditions began at sunset on the Sabbath day which when considered in todays' timeframe our Saturday during the twilight period of the day.

    As far as misrepresenting Mark's timeline, that is your opinion as I can demonstrate when all of the gospels are harmonised in chronological order, Mark's gospel fits my brief summary given in my previous post.

    Shalom
     
  3. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,605
    Likes Received:
    2,828
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Where do you get the idea that Jesus entered Jerusalem after sunset on Saturday?
     
  4. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,839
    Likes Received:
    2,499
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Well, let me start with this one first. It'll explain my answer to your first objection. BOL, he was talking about a woman's period and how long she was considered to be unclean.

    Here is a DIRECT quote from the Talmud Shabbat 9:3J:

    J] It has been taught: R. Eleazar b.Azariah says, "A day and a night constitute a span, and part of a span is equivalent to the whole of it."

    TALMUD Shabbat 9:3

    I urge you to read the surrounding text and note what they are talking about and note they are NOT in agreement.

    So he isn't making a general statement that applies to a fast like in Esther 4 or even anything remotely related to Jonah or how long Jesus was in the heart of the earth. He was talking about regulations regarding a woman's period.

    If that's not enough, the term "onah" isn't even in the Bible. Go to Strong's and look for yourself.

    So as to you first objection, I am not quoting people. I am giving giving information on books, people and things like that.

    I don't mind you using secondary sources for quoting people, but when the quotes are vague and don't tell the whole story, I am going to question them. This "onah" is a prime example of why. Now if you want to question my references, go right ahead.


    LOL!!! I haven't given them yet and you are already accusing me of taking them out of context! Pretty bold statement from someone who said that Mark 10:32 was "Day one".
     
  5. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,974
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Have a read of the attachment to my last post. Then you may learn how they all fit together.

    Shalom
     
  6. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,605
    Likes Received:
    2,828
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    This file keeps crashing my system because of the dozens of layers on the PDF.
    Can you simply explain what you mean?

    Where do you get the idea that Jesus entered Jerusalem after sunset on Saturday?
     
  7. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,605
    Likes Received:
    2,828
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Once again - you have it WRONG.

    This isn't talking about a woman's period. It is talking about the amount of time AFTER a woman has had intercourse with her husband - and when she is finally considered to be "clean". In ANY case - the idiom exists regarding the "onah" - whether complete or partial, it is considered complete.

    As for the term, "onah" itself - it simply refers to a 24 hour period.
    Remember, Einstein - the Babylonian Talmud was NOT written in English . . .
    I was referring to your ORIGINAL statements regarding the Gospels surrounding the Crucifixion, Burial and Resurrection narratives, Einstein. Your abandonment of proper context is precisely WHY you are afraid to address the Markan timeline.

    Don't respond until you are ready to address this timeline . . .
     
  8. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,974
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    It is a large file generated using Word, Wimdows 10 version
     
  9. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,839
    Likes Received:
    2,499
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    What happens if I do?
     
  10. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,839
    Likes Received:
    2,499
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Regardless... It does not prove its an idiom. You are taking context of a specific thing (and once again, it isn't even Biblical) and applying it across the board. Furthermore, you fail to acknowledge that not everyone agreed here. Did you catch 9:3K?

    [K] And thus has it been taught contrary to the view of R. Eleazar b. Azariah, 'There are occasions in which there is a day and any small amount of time in addition, and yet [a woman] is clean. There may be two days lacking a [small] amount of time, and the woman will be unclean." [Hence part of a span is not equivalent to the whole of it.]

    So I conclude 1. It is wrong g to take this quote and apply it to all Biblical situations; 2. If it really were a "well known" idiom, then they would all be in agreement, but they aren't.

    No... Not always. I haven't given you enough information for you to properly define it yet.

    Then again, you could spend some time a do a thorough researching all by yourself, if you like.
    Oh really? And what would those statements be? I've barely mentioned them in this thread! I think I mentioned them twice... Once to note the differences of when he was discovered missing and then briefly to point out your error in "day one".

    Why is it, by the way, you just want to stick with Mark? I'd rather look at all the accounts and evidence before making a judgment, but that's just me....
    Sorry, but I can't honor that demand. You won't let me. If I don't address all your arguments I will never hear the end of it. I still have at least one more point to cover.

    Sorry, I am not a cut and paste type of guy.
     
  11. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,839
    Likes Received:
    2,499
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I am going to give the dog a bone (which actually is an idiom) and help BOL out.

    I think Jay Ross touched on this... And of course BOL objected... But Mark 10:32 is not "day one". Between Mark 10:1 and 11:12 Jesus travelled front the Eastern side of the Jordan river
    While I disagree with points of your timeline, I agree with what you say here... At least the point you made but perhaps not the dates.

    Mark 10:1 finds Jesus on the Eastern shore of the Jordan River. He was making his way to Jerusalem (lodging in Bethany). But he stops off in Jerhico between verse 32 and 11:12. He does a significant amount of activity there.

    There is no note that a day had passed between verse 10:1 and 32. The distance between Jerhico and Jerusalem is about 25 Km as a straight shot. That's 15.5 miles, again as a straight path. Add the couple of miles between the Jordan River and Jerhicho and then subtract the mile or two between Bethany and Jerusalem...

    This is if you were flying and not taking a road through rugged terrain.

    Let's put something in perspective. Jerhico is 850 feet below sea level. Jerusalem is 2474 feet above sea level and they are 15 miles apart. That's just assuming the hills aren't rolling and the road is straight. There is little chance that such a trip was made in a day.

    If BOL wants to claim Mark 11:1 was day one,perhaps it would be acceptable. I don't know... I haven't even harmonized the gospels on my own yet. But clearly day one is not Mark 10:32.
     
  12. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,974
    Likes Received:
    1,766
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    As requested here is a summary and the respective Gospel Passages tied to these events in Chronological order as considered by the author up to and including Monday: -

    The Gospels arranged to reflect the chronological events of Jesus’ life from when he drew near for the last time to Jerusalem

    1. Friday six days before the Passover.

    a. As Jesus draws near to Jericho on his way to Jerusalem, he heals a blind man : - Mark 10:46-52, Luke 18:35-43
    b.
    As Jesus passes through Jericho, he sees Zacchaeus, who had climbed up a tree, so he would be able to see Jesus as he passed by and invites himself to Zacchaeus’ house to stay for a day. : - Luke 19:1-10
    c.
    Jesus heals two blind men as he leaves Jericho by touching their eyes. : - Matt 20:29-34
    d.
    Jesus tells those around him a parable in response to their belief that the Kingdom of God was to appear immediately: - Luke 19:11-27
    e.
    Jesus continues on ahead: - Luke 19:28a
    f.
    Jesus draws near to Jerusalem and stops at Bethany. : - Matt 21:1, Mark 11:1a, Luke 19:29, John 12:1
    g.
    Martha makes a meal for Jesus: - John 12:2
    h.
    Mary anoints Jesus with ointment : - John 12:3-8

    2. Saturday’s, today’s timeframe, twilight after sunset

    a. Crowds come to see Jesus and Lazarus: - John 12:9
    b.
    The Chief Priests conspire to kill Lazarus: – John 12:10-11
    c.
    Jesus sends two disciples ahead to find a colt. [Jesus will ride on this colt as he goes to Jerusalem for the finial time.] : - Matt 21:1b-4, Mark 11:1b, Luke 19:29b-31
    d.
    The disciples go to find the colt: - Matt 21:6, Mark 11:4-6, Luke 19:32-34
    e.
    People come out from Jerusalem to Jesus because they had heard that he was entering Jerusalem: - John 12:12-13
    f.
    Jesus rides a young colt into Jerusalem and the crowds sing praises: - Matt 21:7-11, Mark 11:7-10, Luke 19:35-38, John 12-14-15
    g.
    Some Pharisees asked that the crowd be restrained: - Luke 19:39-40
    h.
    Jesus’ disciples did not understand the significance of the event straight away.: - John 12:16-18
    i.
    The Pharisees express their concern over Jesus: - John 12:19
    j.
    Jesus goes into the temple: - Mark 11:11a
    k.
    Greek worshippers in Jerusalem asked to meet Jesus: - John 12:20-26
    l.
    Jesus is glorified and tells those around him how he is to die: - John 12:27-36a
    m.
    Jesus removes himself from among the people: - John 12:36b
    n.
    Jesus returns to Bethany: - Mark 11:11b

    3. Sunday

    a. Jesus curses a fig tree: - Mark 11:12-14
    b.
    Jesus weeps over Jerusalem: - Luke 19:41-44

    4. Monday

    a. Blind and lame people come to Jesus to be healed: - Matt 21:14-16
    b. Jesus returns to Bethany again: - Matt 21:17, Mark 11:19

    Condensed for the first couple of days as shown in the attachment above.

    Shalom
     
  13. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

    Messages:
    5,073
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    I avoid theories as they tend to be......theories.
     
  14. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

    Messages:
    5,073
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    If I were you I would look up what it says about the traditions of men.
     
  15. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

    Messages:
    5,073
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Didn't see the word easter in any of those verses.
     
  16. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,605
    Likes Received:
    2,828
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    And this includes YOUR 21st century rabbinical source.
    That was my pint from the VERY BEGINNING. I told you - give me Three Rabbis and I'll give you Three conflicting opinions.

    This pretty much SINKS your entire case . . .
    Yet, according to Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah from the Babylonian Talmud, a "Day and Night" is an "Onah".
    He was one of the most highly-respected Rabbis of his time. What are YOUR rabbinical credentials??
    Because of CONTEXT.
    Unless you read ALL of the Gospel accounts in CONTEXT, you cannot come to a conclusive determination.

    Why does the Markan timeline make you so nervous??
    No - you're just not an "contextual evidence" type of guy . . .
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,605
    Likes Received:
    2,828
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You STILL haven't shown where you get the idea that Palm Sunday occurred on Saturday Night.
    Again - your attachment was unusable. Just explain it.

    This is, after all - a discussion forum . . .
     
  18. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,839
    Likes Received:
    2,499
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No it doesn't. Hall was discussing whether 3d/3n is an idiom; Sabbat 9:3 is discussing the uncleanliness of a woman. It is utterly wrong to suggest they are related. The term onah doesnt even mean "day" in the same sense.

    You whole point about rabbi's disagreeing is weak. It can be said the same about Christians, Muslims, Democrats, Republicans and so forth. Guess what? They also agree quite a bit too! I bet I can find 3 that agree that a fast lasting 3 days and 3 nights is going to last a full 72 hours.

    Pointless question. I am not disagreeing with him. I am disagreeing with you misapplying what he said.

    I wonder if he would say a fast lasting 3 days and 3 nights is anything but 72 hours.

    LOL! Are you saying that's such a difficult task?

    ...says the guy who thinks we can apply a discussion about a woman's uncleanliness to the passion week!

    ... Says the guy who can't differentiate a time of fasting to when Esther went to see the king!
     
  19. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,566
    Likes Received:
    485
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    South Africa
    The only place in the universe you will get the chronological events of Jesus’ last passover from when He drew near for the last time to Jerusalem to the day He Resurrected, is the Gospels.

    Read EVERY relevant Scripture in the last chapters of the four Gospels, in textual sequence put together in chronological and logical, historical order, word for word, verse by verse, context to context, Gospel for Gospel, using the King James Version interlinear with the Greek, and every shadow of doubt is dispelled about Christ's perfect fulfilment of the Passover of Yahweh's "three days thick darkness", sola Scriptura as per the Article of the Christian Confession of Faith, I believe in Christ, who was crucified, who died and was buried, and who “ROSE from the dead according to the Scriptures THE THIRD DAY”!

    Immediate, free, in full use, electronic delivery now, on receipt of your e-mail address to biblestudents at imaginet dot co dot za. DV
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
  20. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,566
    Likes Received:
    485
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    South Africa
    A. The Sunday idolaters' Easter does occur on the Jews' first day of the week, no doubt about that!

    B. These Scriptures have nothing to do with 'Easter', nor does Easter - the pagans' 'Easter' - have anything to do with them.

    C. The three Scriptures you indicated, are not one about the same thing or things as the other. So what are you talking about!
     
Loading...