1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Eternal Security? What's your take?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Red_Letters88, Jan 7, 2008.

  1. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    0
    a family member and I have 2 different views on this subject. Tell me what you think.Me- I believe if you truly find and accept Christ, then you would never want to turn from the Lord-- "No man can pluck you from my hand"Him- you can turn from God and loose your salvation just as one could turn from Satan. David says "restore unto me the joy of my salvation"I tell him in that verse David emphasizes JOY.....its not "restore unto me my salvation.Is their other scripture to support either side???
     
  2. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

    Messages:
    426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paul said: Work out your salvation with fear & trembling.Why? If it's a done deal?Also, after he was a believer he said this:1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.Why would he be worried about being "cast away" if he was assured of his salvation? Also this verse: Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
     
  3. setfree

    setfree New Member

    Messages:
    1,074
    Likes Received:
    1
    Before you can work out your salvation you have to have it. So once you are saved(recieved Christ) you work on it allow the Holy Spirit to teach and grow in you.
     
  4. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

    Messages:
    426
    Likes Received:
    0
    (setfree;30008)
    Before you can work out your salvation you have to have it. So once you are saved(recieved Christ) you work on it allow the Holy Spirit to teach and grow in you.
    But why would that cause one to "fear & tremble?" Also, see other verses I added. [​IMG]
     
  5. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    0
    thankyou peacebewithyou and setfree....biblical explanations through scripture is the primary reason I joined this forum. Thank-you!!!
     
  6. setfree

    setfree New Member

    Messages:
    1,074
    Likes Received:
    1
    Tremble and fear used in other scriptues is used more of respect and without pride.Notice the next verse in Phil. 2:12 God works in you to do and will. God is working in you.
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    agreed setfree fear is better translated revere
     
  8. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is indesputable that eternal security is Biblical as I could list off twenty or thirty verses that say no one can snatch us out of His hands, and we can know that we have eternal life and have passed out of death into life etc. The problem is that most people who teach it also incorporate it into easy believism and create a false gospel. While it is true that those who have eternal life do have it and can never lose it, unfortunately most who think they do don't.Salvation is a process that you do have to work out with fear and trembling. There is a narrow way described by Jesus that you must travel through before you have eternal life, and He said that few are able to find it. He that overcomes will inherit the promises of God, while the many who call Him Lord, Lord have never known Him. So what is the fundamental key of the Gospel that most people never realize because they found a religion that attempts to bypass it with clever Theology? It is the heart. You must have your heart regenerated and God's Law written on it by His Spirit, so that He can sanctify you and reconcile you to God. Read Romans 6, it explains how God saves us from our enslavement to sin so that we may walk in newness of life. Or Chapter 8 that explains how we may put to death the deeds of the flesh and become sons of God through the work of His Spirit. That's why the apostle John warns repeatedly that no one who has been born of God can practice sin, and those that do are children of the devil and if they claim to know Him they are a liar.These things don't happen immediately when you believe some facts about Christ. That is the first step before making Him your Lord (think about what that really means) and walking by His Spirit so that He may renew your heart and mind and write God's Laws upon them. You must work through this process with fear and trembling, and with His work in you along with your willingness, you may travel the narrow way to eternal life, and then no one will snatch you out of His hands.Unfortunately most people who preach eternal security are still on the wide path themselves, and have never known Christ because they never had the courage to work out their salvation and overcome the evil one within by walking by God's Spirit. You will know by your fruits if you have completed the path or not. Judge yourself with righteous judgment and ask yourself if you're really sanctified and regenerated to the extent that you no longer practice sin. If not then you have not become a child of God and an heir to His Kingdom according to His definition.SealedEternal
     
  9. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's some of the verses I was referring to:1 John 5:13 “These things I have written to you who BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God, in order THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!” John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears MY word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and does NOT come into judgment, but HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH into life. John 10:28,29 “...and I give ETERNAL LIFE to them, and they shall NEVER PERISH; and NO ONE shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and NO ONE is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” John 6:37, 39-40 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day. “For this is the will of My Father, that EVERYONE who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. ALL that the Father gives ME shall come to me; and the one who comes to Me I WILL CERTAINLY NOT CAST OUT.”Romans 6:1-23 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you WERE slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed FROM sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But NOW having been FREED from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.Romans 8:2-17 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.Matthew 7:16-23 "YOU WILL KNOW them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'Titus 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 2 Corinthians 3:2-3 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. Galatians 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.1 John 5:18 WE KNOW that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.1 John 2:3-6 By this WE KNOW that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. 1 John 3:7-10 Little children, MAKE SURE NO ONE DECEIVES YOU; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such WERE some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.SealedEternal
     
  10. bytheway

    bytheway New Member

    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    4
    Our oldest child has been very rebellious for all of her adult life. In times past, if asked would I cast her away I would for a second consider it, but certainly not do it! How much less our Lord? Human love says I'll love you if you do what I want you to do. Divine love says I love you even when you set yourself against Me. Love NEVER fails!
     
  11. JonJT

    JonJT New Member

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    (SealedEternal;30021)
    It is indesputable that eternal security is Biblical as I could list off twenty or thirty verses that say no one can snatch us out of His hands, and we can know that we have eternal life and have passed out of death into life etc. The problem is that most people who teach it also incorporate it into easy believism and create a false gospel. While it is true that those who have eternal life do have it and can never lose it, unfortunately most who think they do don't.Salvation is a process that you do have to work out with fear and trembling. There is a narrow way described by Jesus that you must travel through before you have eternal life, and He said that few are able to find it. He that overcomes will inherit the promises of God, while the many who call Him Lord, Lord have never known Him. So what is the fundamental key of the Gospel that most people never realize because they found a religion that attempts to bypass it with clever Theology? It is the heart. You must have your heart regenerated and God's Law written on it by His Spirit, so that He can sanctify you and reconcile you to God. Read Romans 6, it explains how God saves us from our enslavement to sin so that we may walk in newness of life. Or Chapter 8 that explains how we may put to death the deeds of the flesh and become sons of God through the work of His Spirit. That's why the apostle John warns repeatedly that no one who has been born of God can practice sin, and those that do are children of the devil and if they claim to know Him they are a liar.These things don't happen immediately when you believe some facts about Christ. That is the first step before making Him your Lord (think about what that really means) and walking by His Spirit so that He may renew your heart and mind and write God's Laws upon them. You must work through this process with fear and trembling, and with His work in you along with your willingness, you may travel the narrow way to eternal life, and then no one will snatch you out of His hands.Unfortunately most people who preach eternal security are still on the wide path themselves, and have never known Christ because they never had the courage to work out their salvation and overcome the evil one within by walking by God's Spirit. You will know by your fruits if you have completed the path or not. Judge yourself with righteous judgment and ask yourself if you're really sanctified and regenerated to the extent that you no longer practice sin. If not then you have not become a child of God and an heir to His Kingdom according to His definition.SealedEternal
    I want to thank you for posting this but I have to say that I'm just as confused as I was previously. There are so many different gospels floating around out there that I dont even know whats what. In a previous thread on this very board I asked how salvation was achieved and how Gods plan worked. The basic answer was "just ask and mean it". Your post seems to imply that salvation is achieved through an arduous study of all things Holy and in the end the person will be saved and not sin. All others who do not do such a thing are going to hell (or maybe purgatory?). Its as though salvation might be conditional, or at least based on the intensity and fervor of the person in question. I was under the impression that we are powerless to save ourselves and cannot do a thing in this matter except ask for Gods help and repent our sins.What is it? I spend time everyday reading the word and searching for answers through prayer and other sources, like this board. Sometimes I feel like I'm way way way back at square one.
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    Salvation is achived by Grace we are saved by the grace of God upon accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior and repenting of your sins you are saved period.People will tell you all sorts of things depending on their beliefs but Gods Word has no denomination it is for all and it is very simple. Once you have done the above (accept and repent) you are baptisted by the holy spirit. it is awakened in you and salvation is achieved. You can grow in that spirit by studing his word and learning about your Father but you will not get more salvation than you got at the begining however you will strengthen you faith and have a closer walk with him.
     
  13. DONNIE

    DONNIE New Member

    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    0
    Through my reasearch on salvation I was led to Mark 16:16 which has no mention of repenting.Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Donnie
     
  14. JonJT

    JonJT New Member

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    (kriss;34125)
    Salvation is achived by Grace we are saved by the grace of God upon accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior and repenting of your sins you are saved period.People will tell you all sorts of things depending on their beliefs but Gods Word has no denomination it is for all and it is very simple. Once you have done the above (accept and repent) you are baptisted by the holy spirit. it is awakened in you and salvation is achieved. You can grow in that spirit by studing his word and learning about your Father but you will not get more salvation than you got at the begining however you will strengthen you faith and have a closer walk with him.
    In which case, the purpose of learning the word and spending time with the Lord is to strengthen your faith and reduce sin?Basically, once you repent and desire forgiveness in your heart, you are saved for good? No sin or fall away from the Lord can take salvation away from you?
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    (DONNIE;34148)
    Through my reasearch on salvation I was led to Mark 16:16 which has no mention of repenting.Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Donnie
    Well you can not be a beliver without wanting to repent for your sins so just because one verse doesnt say it we are supposed to know it. It was the reason Christ died so we could just ask sense he already paid the price.
     
  16. Ek Pyros

    Ek Pyros New Member

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Red_Letters88;30005)
    a family member and I have 2 different views on this subject. Tell me what you think.Me- I believe if you truly find and accept Christ, then you would never want to turn from the Lord-- "No man can pluck you from my hand"Him- you can turn from God and loose your salvation just as one could turn from Satan. David says "restore unto me the joy of my salvation"I tell him in that verse David emphasizes JOY.....its not "restore unto me my salvation.Is their other scripture to support either side???
    His point is out of context; David wants the joy of salvation back. Not salvation itself.Let's ask ourselves who is in charge of salvation, because the implications are the clearest answer to this dilemma. We know Jesus is in charge of salvation. And what does Jesus say about the saved?(John 6)
    37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
    There's your eternal salvation.
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    (JonJT;34214)
    In which case, the purpose of learning the word and spending time with the Lord is to strengthen your faith and reduce sin?Basically, once you repent and desire forgiveness in your heart, you are saved for good? No sin or fall away from the Lord can take salvation away from you?
    Well I wouldnt say that anyone can fall out of salvation if you start worshiping a false God you can lose your salvation I do not believe in a once saved always saved doctrine.The salvation of the righteous comes from the LORD; he is their stronghold in time of trouble.So if one falls away from lord does he keep his Salvation ?I do not believe he does
     
  18. Ek Pyros

    Ek Pyros New Member

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    0
    (kriss;34271)
    Well I wouldnt say that anyone can fall out of salvation if you start worshiping a false God you can lose your salvation I do not believe in a once saved always saved doctrine.The salvation of the righteous comes from the LORD; he is their stronghold in time of trouble.So if one falls away from lord does he keep his Salvation ?I do not believe he does
    We must keep our opinions in check with scripture. Scripture clearly intimates a "once saved, always saved" doctrine. Here's the question: what Christian, truly born-again, saved, Christian would worship a false God?None.So then they would never lose their salvation. Your idea is flawed in the premise that a Christian would (or even could) do such a thing.
     
  19. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    0
    EXACTLY EK PYROS,Thats what I mean. If you truly find Him and accept Him, why would you dare turn from Him?Biggest thing here- We need to remember we should never judge if a man has or has not recieved salvation.Thats obvious enough without judging- We will know them from their actions.ON THE OTHER HAND---Free Will is still alive and kicking. We cant forget God doesnt force us into following Him.
     
  20. Ek Pyros

    Ek Pyros New Member

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Red_Letters88;34309)
    Free Will is still alive and kicking. We cant forget God doesnt force us into following Him.
    I disagree. God literally drags people to Christ according to John 6:44. The ones who excercise complete free will are those who reject Christ and God lets go to hell. The Bible makes it clear that man, left to his own free will and devices, chooses darkness over light every time. Man has not perfect intentions without regeneration via Christ's sacrifice and God's election.Yes, we still have to accept Christ; but we are only able to because God grants us faith, regenerating us while we are spiritually dead. After all, a dead person cannot save himself, can he? Paul makes it clear that while we were dead, Christ saved us.Of course, the question then is what of evangelism? Does it matter if we tell people if God's just going to drag them to Christ? Yes: "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." God uses the Gospel to bring people to Jesus--that's why we must preach it to the ends of the earth.
     
Loading...