Evil From God?

[Wrangler]

There is a Psalm that says woe is from the LORD. I find a big contrast between Jesus saying ‘love your enemies’ with the LORD sending an evil spirit to Saul in 1 Samuel 16:14, 18:10, 19:9 (NSRV).

I’ve heard this metaphorically indicates Saul had mental illness but I’m not reading these verses as figurative. What do you make of this and how do you harmonize these verses with Jesus’ words?

 

[Robert Gwin]

There is a Psalm that says woe is from the LORD. I find a big contrast between Jesus saying ‘love your enemies’ with the LORD sending an evil spirit to Saul in 1 Samuel 16:14, 18:10, 19:9 (NSRV).

I’ve heard this metaphorically indicates Saul had mental illness but I’m not reading these verses as figurative. What do you make of this and how do you harmonize these verses with Jesus’ words?

Interestingly Wrangler, that is one verse I would be tempted to change, Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 Which in English reads Hear, Israel! Jehovah our God; Jehovah One. The NWT renders it: “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

I would be tempted to make it read, Jehovah our God is one God. But the Bible should be translated as is for sure.

 

[Wrangler]

Interestingly Wrangler, that is one verse I would be tempted to change, Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 Which in English reads Hear, Israel! Jehovah our God; Jehovah One. The NWT renders it: “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

I would be tempted to make it read, Jehovah our God is one God. But the Bible should be translated as is for sure.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the OP?

 

[Truman]

God is sovereign, so, of course evil comes from His hand.
He is holy and is without sin and evil.
But Daniel 4:35 says that He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven.
And who are we to tell Him otherwise?
His dominion is an eternal dominion, His kingdom endures from generation to generation.
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing, He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven.
And the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back His hand, or say to Him, "What have You done?" - from Daniel 4
I'd like to add:
No one can understand the full extent of Your sovereign plan.
No one can comprehend the good and evil that You send.
He's nobody's fool. And yet He's our loving Father. Who sent His beloved Son to be crushed for us.
I will bless the Lord, Who is worthy to be praised!

 

[Wrangler]

God is sovereign, so, of course evil comes from His hand.
He is holy and is without sin and evil.

These sentences seem to contradict each other. I agree, he is Holy. And if evil comes from His hand, he must have evil to come from his hand, right? What am I missing?

 

[Truman]

He is in full control of His creation. I acknowledge that He is beyond my capability to fully comprehend.
He is eternal...but what was before that?
He has always existed...but where did He come from?
At a certain point, I feel my brain cells start to stretch...if I don't stop thinking at this point, I get a headache.
If I keep thinking, my brain cells will start to snap...my head will sound like a bowl of Rice Crispies.
If I keep it up, my head might explode. Then everything will be grey and pink.
My sister likes to decorate with grey and pink...she's been married four times.
I wonder where she got her taste for color from. Hmmm.

 

[Wrangler]

He is eternal...but what was before that?
He has always existed...but where did He come from?

Outside. God exists outside the universe. To say he is in heaven ignores the fact the he made heaven. He also exists outside of time.

This one I struggled with for a while until I realized time is only relative motion of 2 things. Without motion, there is no time. Things have to exist in order for their to be motion in our universe.

Anyway, the idea that evil flows from God seems to go against Jesus saying to love ones enemies. Maybe it is just a matter of what God's nature is compared to what His Will is for us?

 

[Hidden In Him]

There is a Psalm that says woe is from the LORD. I find a big contrast between Jesus saying ‘love your enemies’ with the LORD sending an evil spirit to Saul in 1 Samuel 16:14, 18:10, 19:9 (NSRV).

I’ve heard this metaphorically indicates Saul had mental illness but I’m not reading these verses as figurative. What do you make of this and how do you harmonize these verses with Jesus’ words?

Greetings, Wrangler!

Good question. If you look at the context, it doesn't suggest mental illness, it suggests depression. People make a great deal out of this passage, but in reality all it is likely talking about is that the Spirit of the Lord is Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, etc. and if that Spirit leaves you, it will be replaced by a spirit of depression.

This is why translations like the NKJV render it this way:

14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the Lord troubled him. 15 And Saul’s servants said to him, “Surely, a distressing spirit from God is troubling you. 16 Let our master now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is a skillful player on the harp. And it shall be that he will play it with his hand when the distressing spirit from God is upon you, and you shall be well.” 17 So Saul said to his servants, “Provide me now a man who can play well, and bring him to me.”

Music can relieve a distressed or depressed spirit. If a purely EVIL spirit had entered Saul, just playing music for him would have had little effect, any more than playing music for the man with a legion of demons who was living in a graveyard would have. When it comes to a truly evil spirit, it needs to be cast out.

Thus, the context favors the translation and interpretation given by the NKJV.

 

[Wrangler]

Hidden In Him, thank you for your thoughtful post.

People make a great deal out of this passage, but in reality all it is likely talking about is that the Spirit of the Lord is Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, etc. and if that Spirit leaves you, it will be replaced by a spirit of depression.

So, you are parsing <The Spirit of the LORD> from a <spirit of depression>; a being with an attitude or mental state? I do like that but both the NSRV and NKJV emphasize from the LORD. How do you reconcile that?

There are many other verses in Joshua where the LORD put the enemies into a state of terror. So, it is not merely a default state without his absence. These plus 1 Samuel 16:14, 18:10, 19:9 suggest why we ought to fear the LORD. Someone suggested our good God is at war with evil and in these passages, God is acting as a warrior in that conflict - as opposed to the fruit of his Spirit with his followers. Thoughts?

 

[Truman]

God is holy and unchanging! I'm not saying evil flows from God. Put it this way: I once heard that what angers the devil the most is that he is God's devil. To which I say, "tough!" I guess the old serpent thought he was equal to God. As my dad used to say, "You see what thought did!"
God's will and His nature are in complete agreement. In order to do what He can to keep us from eternal harm, He will do whatever it takes.
I don't care what 45,000 denominations, who disagree with each other, have to say about it. God is my God, not the church.
Which, btw, I'm not a part of. I'm close to, a friend of, a servant to, but I'm of Hebrew descent, aka, the chosen elect. And yes, I understand that we are one in Christ. And yes, I understand that we are all equal parts of the puzzle of God's family in Christ. And yes, I understand that the "Israel replacement" theory makes it difficult to accept what I am saying.
All of God's promises are yes and amen in Jesus Messiah. Including the ones He made to the northern kingdom of the house of Israel 2,700 years ago.
BTW...He laughs at His enemies. Psalm 37:13
P.S. Let Us make man in Our Image - Genesis 1:26

 

[Hidden In Him]

So, you are parsing <The Spirit of the LORD> from a <spirit of depression>; a being with an attitude or mental state? I do like that but both the NSRV and NKJV emphasize from the LORD. How do you reconcile that?

A distressing spirit, i.e. as in a troubled spirit. This can often be connected to receiving prophecy that is disturbing in some way.

For instance, this happened with Daniel:

15 “I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’ 19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast... 28 “This is the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed. But I kept the matter in my heart.” (Daniel 7:15-28)

I believe Saul became troubled and distressed over something similar. I think he was starting to realize that all was not well, and that he was eventually going to lose the kingdom. The Chapter starts with God asking Samuel how long he will grieve over Saul, because God had already rejected him as king (1 Samuel 16:1). I think it was starting to set in for Saul as well, hence the distressing spirit he was now starting to walk in. It says Saul was numbered among the prophets, and I think he was starting to see the future now, and the future wasn't bright. And you can see how desperate he was becoming by the end, because after he lost Samuel he went so far as to have the witch of Endor raise his spirit from the dead just so he could prophecy to him. The man was clearly deeply worried about his future.

 

[Wrangler]

A distressing spirit, i.e. as in a troubled spirit. This can often be connected to receiving prophecy that is disturbing in some way.

For instance, this happened with Daniel:

15 “I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’ 19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast... 28 “This is the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed. But I kept the matter in my heart.” (Daniel 7:15-28)

I agree with that. Don't you see though that in Daniel, he was talking about himself but in 1 Samuel, it is a proper noun, a Spirit and most significantly, from the LORD? Another words, it is one thing for Saul to despair, for his spirit to be penitent for disobeying God. It is another thing for evil, depressing Spirits to be sent to him from the LORD, is it not?

I noticed your meme is of the same actor who played Noah in a heretical film, where we only survive by disobeying God; that God wanted us extinct. If that were the case, of course, we are doomed. Did you see that film? I vowed never to watch another Russel Crowe movie again.

I guess loving your enemies is what God does to his elect. It is a horrible thing to be damned by God as Saul obviously was.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I agree with that. Don't you see though that in Daniel, he was talking about himself but in 1 Samuel, it is a proper noun, a Spirit and most significantly, from the LORD? Another words, it is one thing for Saul to despair, for his spirit to be penitent for disobeying God. It is another thing for evil, depressing Spirits to be sent to him from the LORD, is it not?

It's all in how you interpret "a distressing spirit." If this is taken to mean that the Lord literally sent a demonic, unclean spirit upon Saul, that creates a problem for those who interpret God to be good. But if you simply read it as God effecting his spirit through an ill-fated report and through conviction that he had sinned (i.e. godly sorrow), this fits the context, and doesn't create this theological conundrum that might be used to paint God as a bringer of evil spirits upon others. Again, it also fits the context of playing music to change his mood. Being depressed calls for mood change. Being oppressed or even possessed calls for more serious measures.

I noticed your meme is of the same actor who played Noah in a heretical film, where we only survive by disobeying God; that God wanted us extinct. If that were the case, of course, we are doomed. Did you see that film? I vowed never to watch another Russel Crowe movie again.

No, Lol. I rarely if ever watch "Christian" movies. They almost always disappoint. But Gladiator is my favorite film, and it actually carries a spiritual message. There are many lines in it, such as that "What we do in this life echoes in eternity." There are MANY reasons why I love that film actually, but no, I don't suppose everything he has starred in was all that great, LoL.

I guess loving your enemies is what God does to his elect. It is a horrible thing to be damned by God as Saul obviously was.

Ok, now wait. Scripture doesn't say that Saul was damned. It only says that the kingdom was prophesied to be taken away from him. Sometimes we confuse what God prophesies over someone concerning their earthly lives with some kind of judgment he is passing over them regarding their eternity. Those are two different things. Certainly it doesn't look too good for Saul, but we never know what he was thinking or communicating to God on the day he died.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I enjoyed your meme, LoL.

 

[Wrangler]

It's all in how you interpret "a distressing spirit." If this is taken to mean that the Lord literally sent a demonic, unclean spirit upon Saul, that creates a problem for those who interpret God to be good.

Hmmm. Certainly the NSRV translates the verses that way. You seem to disregard the 'from the LORD' part of the verses, even in your preferred NKJV, is that accurate?

Regarding the limits of God being good; I imagine people on the receiving end of God's wrath and justice equate it with evil. Then there is Genesis 50:20 & Romans 8:28. God may not originate evil but uses it for good. It's hard to discern what good came from allowing Saul to pursue God's Anointed for a decade.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hmmm. Certainly the NSRV translates the verses that way. You seem to disregard the 'from the LORD' part of the verses, even in your preferred NKJV, is that accurate?

Well not just the NKJV. A few others as well:

Berean Study Bible
After the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, a spirit of distress from the LORD began to torment him.

Literal Standard Version
And the Spirit of YHWH turned aside from Saul, and a spirit of sadness from YHWH terrified him.

Young's Literal Translation
And the Spirit of Jehovah turned aside from Saul, and a spirit of sadness from Jehovah terrified him.

Again, I'm not discounting that the spirit was from the Lord. I believe it was from God, such as when we receive a spirit of godly sorrow that comes as a result of the conviction of sin. That is certainly a spirit coming from God. But the thing you need to understand here is that sometimes when scripture talks about having a "spirit" of something, it is not talking about a demonic spirit but rather an emotional state that one walks in. In Isaiah 61 new read:

“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, because the Lord has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor... to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness, that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that He might be glorified.” (Isaiah 61:1-3)

This is what the above translations are communicating when they talk about a spirit of sadness or spirit of distress. They are there from God, but they are there to correct and convict of sin.

 

[marks]

These sentences seem to contradict each other. I agree, he is Holy. And if evil comes from His hand, he must have evil to come from his hand, right? What am I missing?

Evil in the Bible doesn't always speak of something morally wrong, but can also mean calamity.

Much love!

 

[Robert Gwin]

I'm not sure what this has to do with the OP?

Just what I said sir, commenting on the way it was written. I would of course translate it the way it was written, but think it would sound a bit better if it read God as I posted. Perhaps using my name to illustrate it might help, Bob our friend is one Bob, now compare it with Bob our friend is just one man see the difference sir?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There is a Psalm that says woe is from the LORD. I find a big contrast between Jesus saying ‘love your enemies’ with the LORD sending an evil spirit to Saul in 1 Samuel 16:14, 18:10, 19:9 (NSRV).

I’ve heard this metaphorically indicates Saul had mental illness but I’m not reading these verses as figurative. What do you make of this and how do you harmonize these verses with Jesus’ words?

We are to love our enemies, not judge.
He does both.

 

[ShineTheLight]

To answer the question.

Isaiah 45:7 KJV

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.